Infinity is an existing being, self aware, mathematically proven....

reply to post by CityIndian

I think you're using one definition of the word infinite to prove a completely different concept.

Yeah but your concept of the postulate Infinity is different from someone else's definition. It becomes relative to the observer's concept of what infinity in the postulate's realm is. If to you its just a forever going never ending sum, then what is the number 1 or 2 to you??? The definition itself isn't set in stone due to the observer ....we see this in the quantum world where atoms behave differently if being observed.

I'm lost as to how you think the infinite breakdown of numbers is some kind of proof infinity is a physical entity?

I just told you. From 1 up to a trillion(or more) is for you a tangible number. It has its existence in the mental realm as ideas of sum, mental representation. This is also where mathematical infinity is also, a postulate in the mental realm.

Those tangible numbers from the mental realm have their real life as physical representations here in the physical realm. You are 1. Your family may be 1 family but has 18 members, as a set. This is all we can feel see and experience. As a human you are 1 in a set of 6.5 billion. As a set of planetary systems we are 1 in a set of trillions, as a group of 1 organized/grouped atom sets, we are are a set of 1 in ridiculously high numbers. This number gets so high we can't grasp it anymore and it becomes only real to us as a postulate ....and yet has its physical reality right in front of our eyes.

this is the jump back from physical reality into the mental realm, when we are dealing with the number of atoms(or atom sets) in existence. We see and know all these atoms exist and are true but we cant fathom it ...so we jump into mental realm postulates. Gives the existence if infinity in our world more credability

In the mental realm both 1 and 18 are part of the whole of infinity. 1 can't exist without infinity and infinity cant exist without 1. I'm saying that the number 1 has "characteristics" in the mental realm. Infinity is one of those characteristics. 1 also exists in our reality, so its infinity characteristic also has to be an intrinsic part of its nature because they cant be without each other, 1 and infinity.

Im trying to show you that you can take infinity out of its mental realm-ness, its postulate-ness and bring it into the our world of existence(physical, consciousness, emotions, awareness). Just like you have to take the number of atoms in existence out of the physical realm (because we cant comprehend this number realistically) and you have to use it as a postulate in the mental realm

The same way the number 1 exists in both these worlds is the same way infinity exists in both those worlds .....we can grasp infinity partially in math by its symbol 8 laying down(and that limits it ...it gives it a representation for the sake of the argument).

The symbol for infinity in our everyday waking reality is the very reality and existence of everything and all of us itself. We and everything in existence is the sideways 8 ....we just aren't aware of this. But somewhere else or some people are aware of this (every possible possibility)

Let alone stretching it to become God.

I didn't say Infinity is God. By it's own nature of every possible possibility it would have to be God and not be God and be a creation of God and be a void and be nothingness. Your comment above limits it to a snapshot of what you(or I or them) think God is, or even of what God thinks God is if there is one.

We don't 'get it' because you're not giving us anything to get. I think you're mixing maths and philosophy and creating an unstable substance.

There are people here who get what I am saying. I get what I am saying ....partially of course ..but this all comes to me as insights that make sense and to me, abstractedness included ...1 and infinity both exist in real life and in math thought life. Besides math is a philosophy with different branches just like different branches of philosophy.

Why would you separate math and philosophy? They both represent each other rather well and go hand in hand, intertwined if you ask me. Unstable substances I'm sure can be created in chemistry, physics, math, bose/einstein condensate becomes such at certain temperatures. It's all intertwined ...all snapshots of infinity.

Does infinity have energy, and if it does where does that energy come from? Is infinite's energy infinite?

It has to have energy to be able to move forward, to be able to be, to exist. Plus it has to have energy as a byproduct of "every possible possibility" If energy didnt exist then infinity would have the ability to create it for the sake of exploring it and allowing it to be one of it's infinite snapshots. And energy itself would have infinite possibilities on its own. This being all a realm of every possible possibility ...also realms of no energy and what happens there would also have to exist.

How does infinity exist if it has no end, or no beginning? Can darkness exist without light? Cold without heat?

Perhaps it had to have gotten a start from somewhere ...but thats logic/reason talking. If we are discussing every possible possibility then it would have to explore itself as a snapshot of having always existed, as well as a snapshot of itself having an initial start. Then it would move into the snapshot where it functions at the best possible level ...but would still have it's "being" in all levels.

Im saying if infinity was created ...then it would itself be able to eneter a realm "that always was" (every possible possibility)

If this is all true then darkness without light and cold without heat would have to be possibilities ...or perhaps have an underlying essence that allows them to be in that state without their opposites.

If my original post is true, then we are using snapshots(language, ideas, thoughts, perceptions, etc) to try and realize the whole or at least in its tangibility to a certain degree

Wow. I'm intrigued. This made for a great read. Though in my opinion, that's where it stops. I almost stopped reading entirely when you shoved religion into it. Thankfully (probably intelligently) you saved that until the very end. This, in no way proves "intelligent design" nor can God be "mathematically proven." In fact, those two swift additions killed your entire post for me.

Furthermore, I'm having a hard time relating "random" and "pattern." Here's why:

ran⋅dom [ran-duhm]

1. proceeding, made, or occurring without definite aim, reason, or pattern: the random selection of numbers.

If we dilute the official definition of the word "random," it simply becomes "without pattern."


Am I missing something?




Cheers.

-Strype



[edit on 9-4-2009 by Strype]

reply to post by Strype

Wow. I'm intrigued. This made for a great read. Though in my opinion, that's where it stops. I almost stopped reading entirely when you shoved religion into it. Thankfully (probably intelligently) you saved that until the very end. This, in no way proves "intelligent design" nor can God be "mathematically proven." In fact, those two swift additions killed your entire post for me.

Show me where in the thread I shoved religion into this??? AM I saying to bow down and worship Infinity? Am I saying give me money I preach infinity? No I never have in this entire thread.

Somebody came on here and wanted to probe if I have a "religious" background which has now significance to a mathematical + philosophical model we are here discussing.

"If" there is a God, then why couldn't he/she/it be mathematically proven? If a live existing Infinity exists then by its nature of every possible possibility it would have to allow for its own proof mathematically and eventually someone would find it.

My friend its impossible to argue against Infinity's real existence because then you are limiting it.

ran⋅dom [ran-duhm] 1. proceeding, made, or occurring without definite aim, reason, or pattern: the random selection of numbers. If we dilute the official definition of the word "random," it simply becomes "without pattern." Am I missing something?

Yeah but how is that your brain is recognizing randomness? How do you know randomness? Because it has a "pattern" of definitions which is "occurring without aim, reason, or pattern. Its the definitions of what it is that makes it a pattern that you can recognize it for.

Originally posted by symmetricAvenger
no...no no no no noooooo

infinty is not a thing.. its a methord

its the result of you asking a question

There originally was only randomness in the beginning

wrong



[edit on 7-4-2009 by symmetricAvenger]

Atleast the OP tried to explain his self and his theory ..

You just say " wrong" .......thats weak

Originally posted by cancerian42
I don't like it when people just keep on beating around the bush, talking in circles, making things more complicated than necessary, and then making a false conclusion trying to sell it as proven fact. If you really want to discuss whatever it is you are trying to say then maybe you should start simple and tell us something that makes sense. So just to make myself CLEAR: What?

Maybe you just don't get it. I did. It made perfect sense to me and I'm sure to others on here too.

It's ok to not understand things sometimes...we all do...we are human......

Does not make it false though.

Originally posted by cancerian42

Originally posted by dominicus
Simple, infinity exists as a being, that is self aware of itself, is existing all around us, is intelligent, is creating and expanding itself and everything around it.

That sentence doesn't make much sense, since infinity is an idea and you might want to define what you mean by infinity anyways since there is negative infinity and positive infinity in mathematics. Or you could possibly be talking about both. Perhaps you are meaning to say that existence is infinite (never ending or maybe never ending and never beginning) and conscious. This subject is too broad not to be specific

If everything exists both negative and positive then infinity exists in every direction always and forever....otherwise it would not be infinity.


Infinity includes everything ever thought or created because a thought does exist and for there too be infinity then every thought must exist.

We would not exist if infinity did not because every action, reaction, thought, thing created, breath, movement, idea are all apart of infinity and the equation of it.


Infinity includes all things so all things are included and make up infinity but if it never ends then it just keeps becoming more infinite thus always including everything within it.

If a thought in your head occurs, it becomes part of the equation because it just happened, even if only to you, and because you exist then so does the thought and so it is a part of everything that is included within infinity

reply to post by LucidDreamer85


and honest and to the point.

2nd line

Originally posted by LucidDreamer85
If everything exists both negative and positive then infinity exists in every direction always and forever....otherwise it would not be infinity.

I didn't say everything exists negatively and positively although I do believe in duality. However, negative and positive infinity is a mathematical IDEA. Infinity is supposed to represent a hypothetical amount. I personally believe that existance has no end and had no beginning and that everything exists because of duality. However, what most of the people on this thread are saying is that an amount is conscious and self aware which makes no sense whatsoever. And you seem to be saying that because existance is dual than infinity must therefore exist. I would appreciate some explanation for this reasoning.

However, what most of the people on this thread are saying is that an amount is conscious and self aware which makes no sense whatsoever. And you seem to be saying that because existence is dual than infinity must therefore exist. I would appreciate some explanation for this reasoning.

Its kind of like taking you for example. You are a product of the physical universe, your body(its atoms self contained), awareness, consciousness. etc. You are made up of an x number of atoms, and yet you are aware and have consciousness. Then why not the universe also be aware and conscious if we come from it and are a product of it and it allows us to "be". And if Infinity is part of the universe or vice versa ...then as a product of "every possible possibility" it would have to be aware as well as unaware.

I'm saying existence would have to be both dual and non-dual. Perhaps in its infinite-ness it is non-dual, but the sums, frozen snapshots of infinity, are dual. It would have to be both to be infinity.

Anything else I'd have to say about this matter. I'd be repeating stuff from previous posts in this thread. Im trying to keep from going in circles here.

I guess you can say, when you are away from your family in a business trip. You think about them and that thought has its existence in the thought realm. But they also have a physical existence back home. Its the same case with numbers, having 2 existences in the thought realm and in life. So what's to keep infinity from also existing in our real world physical realm if numbers themselves do also.

Also, you are 1 human and are a sum, a number, and you are aware and conscious correct? As group of 6 something billion, we all have these characteristics, so how much more would a living infinity entity be aware and conscious???

Also as far as duality goes, take hot and cold for example. Yes these two are dual by the factor that they are each other's opposites. But they are both non-dual in that they both exist ....if you take the word existence and see existence as 1 whole thing, instead of looking at te pieces of it. Its a game of perspectives perhaps

[edit on 10-4-2009 by dominicus]

Can infinity exist?

Well i am going to try and help the Op to shine some light.

Instead of thinking about the definition of infinity try and think about what time is.

Time is plus and minus. If we have these two values you also must have a perfect vacuum = Zero. Because a force of zero must separate the the two values. Because a matter cant be both plus and minus at the same time.

Now what is a perfect vacuum if not infinite. look it up.

A easy illustration:

........-3,-2,-1,0,1,2,3.......

Think of this as 7 different dimensions.


And Yeah!!! and if you know something about math. You would know that nothing can ever pass through the symbol of equality without changing first. And you would know that what passes through can never go back and become what it used to be once it has passed through.

A easy illustration:

2+2+2 = 6

6 is now a new dimesion made up be 2+2+2

But in our space time 6 is no longer just 2+2+2 it could be anything it could be 3+3 and so on. It can be anything that would add up to the dimesion 6.

If this is not intelligent then intelligence dont exist. And science is just a random study of matter and energy.





[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

Originally posted by dominicus
Its kind of like taking you for example. You are a product of the physical universe, your body(its atoms self contained), awareness, consciousness. etc. You are made up of an x number of atoms, and yet you are aware and have consciousness. Then why not the universe also be aware and conscious if we come from it and are a product of it and it allows us to "be". And if Infinity is part of the universe or vice versa ...then as a product of "every possible possibility" it would have to be aware as well as unaware.

Are we really a product of our universe or is the universe a product of us? The answers to these kind of questions cannot be assumed when searching for truth. But say I am just a bunch of atoms and I didn't exist until these atoms came together inside my mother's womb and consciousness, therefore, would be a product of cells inside my body interacting. This does not signify "infinity", as you call it, existing. I do not think it is possible to say whether the universe or better yet, existance, is conscious or not. Can you even prove that anyone, besides yourself is conscious? In life we assume such things to be true (well, most of us do), but there is no way to prove it really.

I'm saying existence would have to be both dual and non-dual. Perhaps in its infinite-ness it is non-dual, but the sums, frozen snapshots of infinity, are dual. It would have to be both to be infinity.

I'm glad you have finally begun using the term existance rather than infinity. It makes much more sense. I have to go for now, I'll comment more some other time.

Why does existance have to be both dual and non-dual? What is your reasoning for this?
I have to add more characters (the little button at the bottom said so). I don't have much more to say, so that's it.

Originally posted by spy66

Time is plus and minus. If we have these two values you also must have a perfect vacuum = Zero. Because a force of zero must separate the the two values. Because a matter cant be both plus and minus at the same time.

Actually "plus" and "minus" hold matter together "at the same time," coz there are those little positively and negatively charged suckers called "protons" and "electrons" that make the atom, which is a constituent of matter.

.....
If infinity wasn't intelligent, then it would lack that one characteristic(intelligence) for it to be infinity.

If infinity wasn't self aware of itself, then it would lack that characteristic(self awareness) for it to be infinity.

If infinity wasn't a design, then it would lack that characteristic(design) for it to be infinity.

Following this logic, it is true that:

If infinity wasn't stupid, it would lack that one characteristic (stupidity) for it to be infinity

If infinity wasn't a conspiracy, it would lack that characteristic for it to be infinity

If infinity wasn't poorly thought out, limited in scope, and had a big ego, then due to a deficiency of these characteristics it wouldn't be infinity.

.... Fortunately for us, infinity isn't human.... or is it?

Originally posted by Inkrinhuminge
.... Fortunately for us, infinity isn't human.... or is it?

Unfortunately for us, Herr Professor noticed that humanity and infinity rhyme all too well.

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.
Albert Einstein

Originally posted by stander

Originally posted by Inkrinhuminge
.... Fortunately for us, infinity isn't human.... or is it?

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.
Albert Einstein

And also fortunately for us, humanity isn't infinite.... or is it?

Originally posted by cancerian42

Originally posted by stander

Originally posted by Inkrinhuminge
.... Fortunately for us, infinity isn't human.... or is it?

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.
Albert Einstein

And also fortunately for us, humanity isn't infinite.... or is it?

You mean fortunately for the universe, right?

reply to post by stander

No, I meant fortunately for us. See, we never really came to a conclusion that the universe was a conscious being or not, so I can't definitely say if it will be fortunate for the universe or not. However, we are conscious beings and hopefully there will eventually be an end of human stupidity (humanity). Am I not supposed to say that I don't care for humanity?

Originally posted by stander

Originally posted by spy66

Time is plus and minus. If we have these two values you also must have a perfect vacuum = Zero. Because a force of zero must separate the the two values. Because a matter cant be both plus and minus at the same time.

Actually "plus" and "minus" hold matter together "at the same time," coz there are those little positively and negatively charged suckers called "protons" and "electrons" that make the atom, which is a constituent of matter.

Yes as you say your self. Plus and minus hold things together.

What is + and - ?

What made the charge in the first place?

Can you have a electrical charge of + and - in a perfect vacuum ?

Is + and - a result of two different energies?

[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

Originally posted by spy66

Originally posted by stander

Originally posted by spy66

Time is plus and minus. If we have these two values you also must have a perfect vacuum = Zero. Because a force of zero must separate the the two values. Because a matter cant be both plus and minus at the same time.

Actually "plus" and "minus" hold matter together "at the same time," coz there are those little positively and negatively charged suckers called "protons" and "electrons" that make the atom, which is a constituent of matter.

Yes as you say your self. Plus and minus hold things together.

What is + and - ?

What made the charge in the first place?

Can you have a electrical charge of + and - in a perfect vacuum ?

Is + and - a result of two different energies?

[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

You can have electrical charge in perfect vacuum. Just consider an electrical wire. How could the air get inside the wire, right? The same goes for the electromagnetic force that holds atom together through the attraction of protons(+) and electrons(-). Since vacuum is considered an absence of the air molecules, which are much, much larger than atom, there can be no "air" inside the atom -- it's like trying to fit a garbage truck into a microwave.

What made the electromagnetic force?

That depends on the theory of the birth of the universe. If you go with the Big Bang scenario and the standard model, then the strong electromagnetic force is a consequence of the transformation of the universe from a singularity to its subsequent states. I don't know when the strong electromagnetic force was born. The standard model should mention that. You may have to do some browsing to find a reference to the question.

The standard model and infinity are not strangers:

There are four fundamental forces at work in the Universe: the strong force, the weak force, the electromagnetic force, and the gravitational force. They work over different ranges and have different strengths. Gravity is the weakest but it has an infinite range. The electromagnetic force also has infinite range but it is many times stronger than gravity.

public.web.cern.ch...



[edit on 4/17/2009 by stander]