Teens Could Spend 25 Years in Prison for Allegedly Torturing Cat, Setting It on Fire

reply to post by JustAThought


People, are you just skipping over my replies to this thread?

I am a criminal defense attorney here in New York, the jurisdiction of the this crime.

The young men who comitted this crime are not facing 25 years for setting the cat on fire!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The potential 25 year sentence is for starting a fire in a building where PEOPLE live. If the fire had spread, PEOPLE could have died!!!!!!!

The act of animal cruelty is a terrible thing; however, the law does NOT treat it the same as an act against a PERSON.


This is a link to my responses to this thread and it include the actual New York Animal Cruelty law in question that sets a maximum term of incarceration of TWO YEARS.

www.abovetopsecret.com...


[edit on 24-3-2009 by finemanm]

reply to post by finemanm


Save yourself the energy man; they ain't listening.

I appreciate the inside info though, thank you.

reply to post by JustAThought


It's not just the act of killing, it's the act of setting any living thing on fire. I wouldn't set a cockroach on fire. What makes the life of a human being any more valuable than the life of any other living being ?

Every living being deserves the right to live their life. No living being deserves to go through the agony of being held down and set on fire while alive. Any person that would do that to another living being, especially for fun does not deserve their freedom, and certainly has no place in a civilized society.

reply to post by eNumbra


I know, its like they pick and choose the info that they want to discuss or debate; however they are debating the wrong issue. The reason the press picked up this story is the sensational aspect to it in that the complete depravity it shows by these misguided young men, and then the fact that the circumstances of the crime make it much more serious because they set a fire in a residential apartment building.

Don't worry people, these young men will not be disproportionatly punished for harming an animal relative to the punishment of robbers and rapists. They will in all likelihood take a plea that involves a sentence much closer to the minimum of 5 years than the max of 25, and it will be because they committed arson and not animal cruelty.

The one thing I'll add though is that the District Attorney will in all likelihood seek a more severe punishment in light of the cruel treatment of that animal. I believe that the District Attorney will be justified in doing so.

Again, all of my posts in this thread should not be construed a giving legal advice and in no way are a solicitation of employment out side the State of New York.

On a personal note, not withstanding all of my previous posts, I believe that the New York State legislature would be in their right if they were to determine that the crime of animal cruelty merited the possibility of more severe punishment than what is currently on the books of two years.

These idiots didn't just torture a cat, one of them beat an elderly man during a robbery in the same building.

Cooper was charged with the sickening crime days after he was busted for allegedly robbing and beating an elderly man with a cane in the same building, according to court documents.

www.nydailynews.com...

These young men are clearly a danger to the community, and in my opinion just as a concerned citizen (if the allegations are proven beyond a reasonable doubt after a trial or confessed to during an allocution to a guilty plea) I think they should have the book thrown at them.

Just my 2 cents.

good. i have no sympathy for people who are cruel to animals. most animals are defenseless against humans. real tough picking on a 10 lb cat. d-bags!!!

Lets see now these two young men (the one 18 the other soon to turn 18) were arrested for:

arson
burglary
animal cruelty resulting at death of the said animal/s

on top of (previous attempts for)

Burglary
Assault

and were charged only for:

Second-degree arson
Second-degree burglary
Aggravated animal cruelty

on top of

Burglary
Assault

Id say the charges went easy on them because what they really did was:

Second-degree arson
Second-degree burglary
Aggravated animal cruelty
Breaking and Entering (not charged)
Trespassing (not charged)
Possible damage of foreign property (not charged)

on top of

Burglary
Assault
Potential stealing (not charged)

Also their actions possibly caused severe psychological trauma to the couple who owned the pet. (pets are felt by humans like family members often)

A sentence of 25 years will probably result in a maximum imprisonment of 3 years with good behavior.
In 3 years these guys will be still remembering who put them in jail, aka that probably aged couple they braked in to their home and killed their pet.
I'd say they deserve a 40 years sentence and they can try to get out at 7 with good behavior. Also I propose the last 4 years of jail sentence to be changed to community service. This way they might turn alright and also pay back the expenses of their imprisonment.
At least let this couple leave in peace for a few years.

40 years instead of 25

[edit on 24-3-2009 by spacebot]

Originally posted by finemanm
reply to post by JustAThought

 

People, are you just skipping over my replies to this thread?

No pardon me, i did read your post and felt good to know that whoever writes the laws overthere ain't gone crazy like the people onhere who thinks that the amount of punishment somehow shows just how big their morals are.

reply to post by spacebot


Okay, some of the things you mention are completely off base here in New York.

First of all, you state that:

Id say the charges went easy on them because what they really did was:

Second-degree arson
Second-degree burglary
Aggravated animal cruelty
Breaking and Entering (not charged)
Trespassing (not charged)
Possible damage of foreign property (not charged)

Firstly, Mr. Monderoy was charged in an eleven count indictment which charges numerous crimes of varying degree. I can't find the other individual's indictment. Might not have been filed with the court yet.

These are public records. Anyone can see the charges using a website provided by the New York State Unified Court System: iapps.courts.state.ny.us...

Just log in as a guest, and if you know the accused first and last name, you can look up their case.

Criminal Trespass and Criminal Mischief were both charged in the indictment. These are both misdemeanors; thus, not worth mention.

In terms of the amount of time a person does in a New York State Prison:

There is a distinction between violent and non-violent felonies in New York. For a non-violent, a person may be sentenced to an indeterminate sentence like 1 to 3 years for example. This would mean that the person would be "eligible" for parole after serving about 85% of one year, but may be held up to 3 years if he is denied parole (which happens more than you think).

Completely different sentencing scheme for violent crime. Here a judge must set a determinant sentence. For example, Arson in the 2nd Degree is a violent class B felony. Under New York law, a violent B felony has a sentencing range of 5 years as a minimum up to 25 years as a maximum. The judge picks a number that he or she feels is appropriate anywhere in between the minimum and the maximum.

Lets say for argument sake, the judge in this case, after a trial and a verdict of guilty, sentences these young me to 10 years, they must serve 10 years. In terms of time off for good behavior, it is my understanding that the New York State Department of Correction is allowed to release someone after they serve 85% of their sentence. So for a sentence of 10 years for example, they must serve eight years and six months before they would be eligible for release.

New York is not a revolving door system as some states (California) may be. If you get 10 years for a violent felony, you will probably serve eight and half years to 10 years.

While New York Jurors may be more liberal than in other states, and while the New York Courts give slightly more protection than constitutionally required in some instances, crime is generally punished very severely in New York where a person has been convicted after trial.

Plea bargaining might be more lenient here than in other jurisdictions as we have a lot of volume, and the District Attorney cannot try every case that they want to.

So trust me, these guys will not be getting a walk on this case. Additionally, when I was at the DA's office, there was a Homicide prosecutor that sought out these animal cruelty cases because the person was very principled when it came to this type of crime.

That prosecutor is extremely capable, as are all the Assistant District Attorney's in the homicide bureau. I am quite sure that if this person is still with the office and takes this case, this prosecutor will ensure that these young men get their day in court, have a fair trial, and will zelously represent the People of the State of New York in this case.

Homicide ADA's are the cream of the crop at the Brooklyn DA's Office.

Originally posted by JustAThought

Originally posted by finemanm
reply to post by JustAThought

 

People, are you just skipping over my replies to this thread?

No pardon me, i did read your post and felt good to know that whoever writes the laws overthere ain't gone crazy like the people onhere who thinks that the amount of punishment somehow shows just how big their morals are.

And yet there have been few attacks on those who claim they wish to see those boys set on fire, rather, most of the negative responses in this thread have tried to deride animal life as being somehow worth less than that of a humans.

I believe all life is equal despite the fact that yes, I eat meat; I believe however that it is not the animals that are as precious as we, but it is we who are as pathetic as the animals.
Look at how many people have brains and yet fail to use them, preferring to spend the majority of their time in front of the TV thinking what others tell them to think.

Think about that and tell me I'm wrong. (and yes I realize the irony in that statement)

Originally posted by chise61
reply to post by JustAThought

 

It's not just the act of killing, it's the act of setting any living thing on fire. I wouldn't set a cockroach on fire.

That's cute. You wouldn't set a cockroach on fire, but you willingly take a human beeing from his loved ones, put him in prison and leave him to be raped by inmates for 25 years.

What makes the life of a human being any more valuable than the life of any other living being ?

Well value like good and bad dosn't really exist in the physical world. It's something our minds conjure for us.

But allow me to give you the option of finding out for yourself how you define value.

1. Find a bug. Kill it however you wish. Go to bed.

Next day!

2. Find a random person. Kill it however you wish. Go to bed.

3. Now all you do is measure how much sleep you got each of those nights, the night with the most sleep is the day you killed the least valuable beeing. We measure value of life, by our emotional attachment to it.
Like if you had to choose a human to kill, you probably wouldn't choose to kill any family members either.

Every living being deserves the right to live their life.

I could name a few viruses and bacteria i would gladly take that right away from completely.

No living being deserves to go through the agony of being held down and set on fire while alive.

Yes! Ticks! They just won't die unless you actually roast the bastards. Oh and i don't think there's a chef outthere who didnt cook a lobster or two alive. I'm sure their families will all agree with your moral dictations as you come to hawl them away to 25 years in prison.

Any person that would do that to another living being, especially for fun does not deserve their freedom, and certainly has no place in a civilized society.

Any person that would do that to a cat, deserves forgiveness, just like you and me and everybody else who sometimes through life makes mistakes.

One day i tell you. You will find your own share of that forgivenes and you'll be thankful that god, unlike most humans, does forgive. He does let you move on and become a new individual who has grown with the experience. Prison does just the opposite.

reply to post by JustAThought


Wasn't meant to be cute. This human being didn't have a problem in the world breaking into someones house and beating that person with a cane , while they were sleeping, demanding money. He also didn't have a problem with the fact that he could have killed many people in that building by starting a fire. Did he care about taking any of those people away from their loved ones ? So do you believe that he should be allowed to roam freely to kill whomever and whenever he wants ? A person that has no regard for life has no place in society, he is a danger to all around him.

I wouldn't seek out a bug for the purpose of killing it either, it is not my place to take a life.

I'm quite sure that you could name a few more things other than viruses and bacteria that you would take that right away from.

Your nonsense answers are not amusing, if a tick is burned off it's out of necessity, not for fun. I would never cook a lobster alive, i think it's barbaric and no better than what was done to that cat, that's why i don't eat them, and that's all i have to worry about. I won't be the one hauling them away. And maybe if their families had done a better job raising them and made sure they had some decent morals of their own, they wouldn't be in this mess.

Would they deserve the same forgiveness if they had done it to a human child ? That was not a mistake, it was a deliberate act. They are both old enough to know the difference between right and wrong. Regardless of whether or not they deserve forgiveness, they are not safe to have in society.

God is a divine being, humans are not. Therefore he is capable of things that we are not. It is God's law that says thou shalt not kill, and when you set a live being on fire you are trying to kill it.

Unfortunately prisons are all that us mere humans have right now, so we have to work with that until we find something better.

reply to post by JustAThought


Humans have the ability to override their instincts and follow a more thought out path, animals do not, it's easy to forgive an animal as it knows no better, humans do and if you read finemanm post you'll notice the 25 years was for Arson in a residential property, is this now a justified amount for you guys, now that the victim is property is the sentence OK?

I hope they get the help they need, and for the sake of the planet I hope you lot learn that humans are not the be all and end all, thankfully one day we'll all be gone.

Originally posted by chise61

It's not just the act of killing, it's the act of setting any living thing on fire. I wouldn't set a cockroach on fire. What makes the life of a human being any more valuable than the life of any other living being ?

A cockroach? Now you're making me feel guilty for all the dumb & perhaps cruel stuff I did in my youth. We used to throw matches & firecrackers on Ant hills in my youth. I don't know if we were being cruel or just curious. I'll tell you we did learn something we were amazed that the ants would sacrifice themselves for the colony by putting the matches & fuses out - that would require them to litterly smother the flame with their bodies which resulted in disfigurment and death.

Now days when I see most insects or spiders in the house I usually put them outside (even though I have arachnaphobia) - figuring that one saved might be the one that keeps the species alive or pehaps even shift the balance for all of us.

Originally posted by chise61
reply to post by JustAThought

 

Wasn't meant to be cute. This human being didn't have a problem in the world breaking into someones house and beating that person with a cane , while they were sleeping, demanding money. He also didn't have a problem with the fact that he could have killed many people in that building by starting a fire. Did he care about taking any of those people away from their loved ones ? So do you believe that he should be allowed to roam freely to kill whomever and whenever he wants ? A person that has no regard for life has no place in society, he is a danger to all around him.

Look i ain't trying to say it's ok to do this kinda stuff. What i'm trying to say is that if you want a world where no individual would ever end up in a situation like this, it's time you stop punishing and instead try to listen and understand people.

I believe a society is possible where things like this are nonexistant, with the right tools.

Yes right now all you have are prisons. Atleast in America. But i think society needs to move on and realise that the thought of life in prison won't keep people from turning bad. Even the thought of death.

I believe you put these people in care, listen to them, try to understand what has made them what they are, so you can learn from it and make the right adjustments to how society operates and try to steer people away from ever ending up like this.

The weakest spot of democracy is that for each minority it is a dictatorship and they are beeing supressed by the majority. This can hardly be healthy for the society as a whole.

I wouldn't seek out a bug for the purpose of killing it either, it is not my place to take a life.

Yes it is. Each day of your life costs the life of another beeing, the fact that you pay people to do the dirty work dosn't make you any better than the rest of us.

I'm quite sure that you could name a few more things other than viruses and bacteria that you would take that right away from.

Yes i can! Cows and pigs for eating. Any dangerous animals threatening my loved ones. Climb down your holyerthanthough ladder and realise you're just a murderer who thinks your life is more important than all the animals you've eaten.

I can look myself in the eye and admit that. If i felt their lives were equal to mine i would've killed myself a long time ago.

Your nonsense answers are not amusing, if a tick is burned off it's out of necessity, not for fun. I would never cook a lobster alive, i think it's barbaric and no better than what was done to that cat, that's why i don't eat them, and that's all i have to worry about. I won't be the one hauling them away. And maybe if their families had done a better job raising them and made sure they had some decent morals of their own, they wouldn't be in this mess.

I didn't expect you to have a sense of humour or self irony either, so no surprise there. But yeah cooking lobsters like that is kinda cruel, but you know, evil stuff happens to animals everyday for our sake, stuff you would never do to any human. Just think of catching a fish with a hook in their mouths. Noone would want to be caught like that.

Would they deserve the same forgiveness if they had done it to a human child ?

Ah sweet, back at square one. Comparing the situation to a human. You really are a swift learner. No! Had it been a human child ofcourse it's another story, so why even throw that inthere ? It just makes you look... Dishonest to yourself. Setting fire to a human baby takes a much much much more sick mind, but yes i still believe people deserve to atleast be treated and listened to whatever they've done. Isolated from society yes, but treated like humans, yes. Not animals in a cage.
Prison is like ignoring all the data in a crashlog and just throwing it in the bin.
If you were to use this logic, building a software system you'd get fired imediatly for imcompetence.

That was not a mistake, it was a deliberate act. They are both old enough to know the difference between right and wrong. Regardless of whether or not they deserve forgiveness, they are not safe to have in society.

You sound like you know these people. Yet you are so emotionally unattached from them that you couldnt give a rats *** about them. Which is why you are no better than them in my eyes. If it were your own son you would be in a different mindset. Try use your imagination and put yourself in peoples shoes before you judge them. You'll be amazed at the outcome of not reacting to the first impulsive emotion. Because yes ofcourse you get mad when you hear about this stuff.
If someone burned my cat off you can be sure they wouldnt wanna be around me either. Because i'm too much of an animal to think straight if i'm pissed. That's why we need MORAL AUTHORITY.
Noone truly knows right untill they've done truly wrong.

God is a divine being, humans are not. Therefore he is capable of things that we are not. It is God's law that says thou shalt not kill, and when you set a live being on fire you are trying to kill it.

Thouh shall not kill ? I think you're talking about the Christian version of the concept of god. Something that is deeply rooted in a disgust of nature.

I speak directly with god and he never communicates in words. If god decides something you'll feel it.

Try jumping really high for example. Now the reason that you return to Earth again is gods will beeing forced upon you. Thouh shall not fly. Though shall not walk through walls. Though shall not this and that.. .Atleast not without using your mind to solve the riddle of flight.

God gave you the opportunity and freedom to do whatever you CAN. If you were unable to do wrong, you would never know right. It's a necessity on the path of spiritual growth.

Unfortunately prisons are all that us mere humans have right now, so we have to work with that until we find something better.

Ok so what is better to you ? How do you define better ? Really, i wanna know. Is Death "better"? Is forgiveness "better"? Is torture "better".

What sort of "better" are we aiming for here ?

The mind won't work without the flesh, and the flesh won't work without the mind. You have unbalance in this area. Your mind is emberassed about your flesh.

[edit on 25-3-2009 by JustAThought]

Originally posted by Solomons
Im sorry i actually have two cats..and 25 years is like i said..ludicrous,yes this is a despicable act and they should be punished along with breaking and entering,25 years though? no that just plain silly.

I agree - it is rediculous - if it were up to me I would light them on fire for the amusement of a crowd.

It isn't up to me - for I strongly believe that Vengence is God's alone - but certainly there are consequences for their actions and they SHOULD be severe.

I think in the light of the Russian teenage serial killers who have been in the news - it is clear this behavior can escalate into full fleged torture and murder of men, women, and children very quickly.

If this were somehow accidental - there would be compassion - but this type of behavior was anti-social to the point of intollerable in society.

And I personally would have had to seriously hold myself back had it been my pets involved.

reply to post by JustAThought


And while these people are "in care" are they still free members of society, free to roam the streets looking for their next victim ?

I agree the thought of life in prison, or even death does not deter some people from commiting crimes. So until we do find something that does deter them, prison is what we have to work with.

A society where things like this are nonexistant may very well be possible, however i doubt it will be anytime in the near future. We have had since the beginning of man to change these behaviors, yet we still have not been able to accomplish this.

Have you ever heard a sociopath give their reason for doing what they do, it's usually "because i can". How do we deal with people that think like that? We certainly can not allow them to remain free to continue to torture and kill innocent people and defenseless animals. If you know how to stop these behaviors, please feel free to enlighten us.

America is not the only place that has a prison system, if you know of someplace where they don't imprison people, please let me know where it is, and what they do with people like this.

You will have to explain how each day of my life costs another human being their life.

I don't pay anyone at all to do my "dirty work" for me. I can assure you that if i had any dirty work that needed doing, i would take care of it myself. Funny i don't remember saying that i was better than anyone else.

Well i would certainly hope that you don't burn them alive before eating them, i would hope that you would kill them as humanely as possible.

Everyone has the right to take the life of any dangerous animal, or human that is threating the life of their loved ones. I don't believe that anyone would disagree with you on this point.

I'm on no ladder, and might i remind you that it was you, not me, that brought holyness into this conversation.

What gives you the impression that i eat animals ? There is a big difference between someone killing an animal for food and torturing, or killing an animal for fun, if you can't see the difference between the two, then i don't know what to say to you. You have every right to believe that your life is more important than an animal's, just as i have every right to believe that an animal has just as much right to life as i do.

reply to post by JustAThought


I'm terribly sorry if it offends you that my sense of humor does not include finding humor in the suffering of animals, not everyone can be cold hearted. Yes things do happen to animals every day, but there is no comparison in the actions of a person catching fish to eat, and a person holding a cat down, dousing it with lighter fluid and starting it on fire for fun.


Maybe for the same reason that you throw in the aspect of a fisherman's way of catching a fish. We both know there is no similarity between that and holding a cat down and setting it on fire for fun.

It doesn't make me look in the least bit dishonest, many individuals that torture, maim, and kill animals for fun graduate to humans. Explain how we would isolate them from society without imprisoning them ? Do you know of a deserted island that they could be sent to ?

I don't have to know them to know that this was a deliberate act, any fool can see that, you don't hold something down and set it on fire, or beat someone with a cane by accident. You are right i am more emotionally attached to the the victims of their cold hearted brutality. It is your right to be more attached to them if you so chose.

Thankfully it's not your eyes that i have to worry about. I can most assuredly guarantee you that niether one of my sons would ever do such a thing, they were raised to respect all living things. I'm sure you'll thing me a terrible person for this, but i even taught them not to go around breaking branches off trees as they too are living things and supply us with much needed oxygen.

I'm sorry but i am not capable of putting myself in the shoes of a person that would do something as horrible as that.


No actually it's not the Christian version of the concept of God. It's one of the ten commandments that was given to Moses, that would make it part of the Jewish version of the concept of God, and Jewish people are not Christians.

You return to earth again because of this little thing called gravity.

I would appreciate if we could leave God, and religion out of this discussion as this is not a thread about either one.

Torturing, and beating other living beings are not a necessary for following the path of spiritual growth.

Better would be finding out why some people act like this, and finding a way to stop it before it happens.


I really don't understand what you're getting at here, but my mind is not embaressed by my flesh.

I believe you and i have had a similar debate on a different thread last year. This is just not something that we can find common ground on. You seem to be of the belief that human life is the be all and end all, the most important thing in the world, i'm not.

Originally posted by chise61
And while these people are "in care" are they still free members of society, free to roam the streets looking for their next victim ?

No! Care is a lockup like prison. Only people are not punished, they are isolated from society strictly for societies security, but people try to "save their souls".

I agree the thought of life in prison, or even death does not deter some people from commiting crimes. So until we do find something that does deter them, prison is what we have to work with.

Maybe start with supporting each and every human beeing with money enough to be a part of society. And just generally show some more support and respect for the weaker individuals in society who are not capable of putting together a healthy life for themselves.
That would be a good start i think.

A society where things like this are nonexistant may very well be possible, however i doubt it will be anytime in the near future. We have had since the beginning of man to change these behaviors, yet we still have not been able to accomplish this.

Well the behaviour was not a problem untill society came along and morals started developing. Nature is immoral by design.

Have you ever heard a sociopath give their reason for doing what they do, it's usually "because i can". How do we deal with people that think like that? We certainly can not allow them to remain free to continue to torture and kill innocent people and defenseless animals. If you know how to stop these behaviors, please feel free to enlighten us.

I'd have to write you a book sorry And maybe i will... One day.

America is not the only place that has a prison system, if you know of someplace where they don't imprison people, please let me know where it is, and what they do with people like this.

In Denmark where i live we have prisons, but nothing like in the US. Our prisons are a "joke" and people can take it easy if they're going to prison it's like a vacation only you are ofcourse taken away from your friends and family, but they can visit. Mentally ill criminals are put in therapeutic isolation like of which i spoke.

You will have to explain how each day of my life costs another human being their life.

Sorry i meant animal unless ofcourse you're a veggy, i still doubt that no less than 100 animals have paid with their lives to yours in the very least.

I don't pay anyone at all to do my "dirty work" for me. I can assure you that if i had any dirty work that needed doing, i would take care of it myself. Funny i don't remember saying that i was better than anyone else.

By dirty work i mean slaughterhouses. Beeing a veggy in itself is feeling superior to the rest of nature. A disgust with nature.

I'm on no ladder, and might i remind you that it was you, not me, that brought holyness into this conversation.

Everyones gotta be somewhere on the ladder.

What gives you the impression that i eat animals ? There is a big difference between someone killing an animal for food and torturing, or killing an animal for fun, if you can't see the difference between the two, then i don't know what to say to you. You have every right to believe that your life is more important than an animal's, just as i have every right to believe that an animal has just as much right to life as i do. I get the feeling you purposely misunderstand me and it's not worth my time. You assume things i've already made quite clear my views on.