KT Challenge@Shanksville

Originally posted by screwedagain

I don't think the point of the challenge is to argue that Flight 93 should not have been reduced to such small pieces, but rather where did most of the debris from Flight 93 go regardless of how big or small the debris should have been. Officials involved with this incident say most of debris was buried under the crater, about 80% according to that lady who I'm told works at the Flight 93 Shanksville memorial. The point of the challenge is to provide evidence beyond doubt that supports that claim.

If you look at the slide show presentation I posted the link to, you can see the many pieces of excavating equipment used. I don't know for certain what percentage was underground and what was scattered.

I have offered the number to United Airlines for those that are interested in speaking with someone there regarding the remains of Flight 93.

In addition, I posted the contact information of many that worked the crash site. I encourage you and others to contact them and ask them. If you don't get the answers you want, file a FOIA.

Originally posted by screwedagain

CameronFox, is that what you think happened to Flight 93?

I don't "think" what happened, I know as a fact; it was deliberately crashed.

Thank you.

Originally posted by CameronFox
If you look at the slide show presentation I posted the link to, you can see the many pieces of excavating equipment used. I don't know for certain what percentage was underground and what was scattered.

Couldn't find the link you're referring to. Even if there are pictures of many pieces of digging equipment used doesn't mean that plane was buried in the ground unless you can see them hauling debris out of the ground. What evidence do you have of that?

I have offered the number to United Airlines for those that are interested in speaking with someone there regarding the remains of Flight 93.

In addition, I posted the contact information of many that worked the crash site. I encourage you and others to contact them and ask them. If you don't get the answers you want, file a FOIA.

What does that prove?

I don't "think" what happened, I know as a fact; it was deliberately crashed.

That wasn't what my question I was referring to. Do you think most of Flight 93 was buried under the crater? If you do, what is your evidence to support that?

Originally posted by screwedagain

Couldn't find the link you're referring to. Even if there are pictures of many pieces of digging equipment used doesn't mean that plane was buried in the ground unless you can see them hauling debris out of the ground. What evidence do you have of that?

Since you will hand wave it away like it appears you do, I won't bother re-posting it. You can look on page 5 where it says "POWERPOINT."

If there were in fact photographs of debris being pulled out of the ground, you would simply state that there is no proof that those pictures were taken at the site, or that they were planted. (like the no planers at the Pentagon claim)

What does that prove?

That if you are indeed searching for the truth, you will contact United Airlines to obtain the information that you seek. If you want to know what was in the crater and below the surface, contact some of the folks that were involved. Surely they ALL can't be in on it.

That wasn't what my question I was referring to. Do you think most of Flight 93 was buried under the crater? If you do, what is your evidence to support that?

As stated above, I do not know the percentages of how much was where. I really haven't looked into that. It really does not matter to me. As stated, I am 100% certain that flight 93 crashed in Shanksville. How much of the remains that were removed from the crater is irrelevant to the fact.

reply to post by screwedagain


Apparently missed part how dozens of people crawled on hand and knees for weeks after recovering pieces of debris, including body parts. Some
of the debris was ploughed into the ground - which was soft dirt from
old strip mine. Lot of pieces were sprayed in direction of flight

Searchers recovered estimated 90% of aircraft, some 60 tons, enough to
fill 10 construction bins with debris.

At the same time, the high winds that buffeted the area over the last few days have dislodged additional airplane parts – seat cushions, wiring, carpet fragments and pieces of metal – from trees near the crash site. "It's all aircraft parts, no human remains," Miller said. "We've collected them in 10 recycling bin-sized containers and eventually we'll turn them all over to United." –Wallace Miller

Large piece of fuselage - above ground



Much of the debris wound up like this



This is report of plane which crashed in my neighborhood 20 years ago

As member of FD walked the crash scene marking body parts for coroner
to recover

Four people, two crew members and two passengers, were believed by Federal investigators and the police to have been aboard the Lear 35 jet. The police could not confirm the number, or identities, of the victims ''We're dealing with body parts, not bodies,'' Chief Joseph Ranney said. ''Identification will be very difficult.'' Airplane parts were scattered in small pieces throughout the site on Garrett Mountain.

At the site, at Rifle Camp Road and Washington Drive near the Great Notch Reservoir, Federal, police and fire investigators sifted through the remains. The parts of the plane were scattered beneath trees, shrubs and rocks, and the smell of jet fuel permeated the air. The residents of nearby homes and the condomnium complex said the explosion rattled their homes and the flames lighted the early morning sky.

Note how similar descriptions of crash scenes - this plane hit at about 350
mph at steep angle

Originally posted by CameronFox
Since you will hand wave it away like it appears you do, I won't bother re-posting it. You can look on page 5 where it says "POWERPOINT."

It said "The bandwidth or page view limit for this site has been exceeded and the page cannot be viewed at this time. " Briefly explain to me how that PDF prove a plane underground.

If there were in fact photographs of debris being pulled out of the ground, you would simply state that there is no proof that those pictures were taken at the site, or that they were planted. (like the no planers at the Pentagon claim)

The photo of the engine part proves it was taken at the site, but SPreston proved how that part was planted. If you have other photos showing parts being pulled from the ground, I'm sure everyone here would love to see them, including me.

That if you are indeed searching for the truth, you will contact United Airlines to obtain the information that you seek. If you want to know what was in the crater and below the surface, contact some of the folks that were involved. Surely they ALL can't be in on it.

I doubt the employees at United were also helping to dig out the plane.

As stated above, I do not know the percentages of how much was where.

Do you believe most of the plane was buried?

I really haven't looked into that. It really does not matter to me. As stated, I am 100% certain that flight 93 crashed in Shanksville. How much of the remains that were removed from the crater is irrelevant to the fact.

But it is relevant because that part of the story is telling us where most of the plane went. If you can't not prove that claim, then that claim is an unproven claim.

Originally posted by thedman
Apparently missed part how dozens of people crawled on hand and knees for weeks after recovering pieces of debris, including body parts. Some
of the debris was ploughed into the ground - which was soft dirt from
old strip mine. Lot of pieces were sprayed in direction of flight

I think the point is did most of the plane plow into the ground.

Searchers recovered estimated 90% of aircraft, some 60 tons, enough to
fill 10 construction bins with debris.

But we are wondering why we only see a fraction of that amount scattered around the area.

Large piece of fuselage - above ground

Where was that taken?

Note how similar descriptions of crash scenes - this plane hit at about 350
mph at steep angle

Did most of that plane plow into the ground?

Originally posted by screwedagain

It said "The bandwidth or page view limit for this site has been exceeded and the page cannot be viewed at this time. " Briefly explain to me how that PDF prove a plane underground.

Weird. I was looking at it last night. NWO must have taken it over.

The photo of the engine part proves it was taken at the site, but SPreston proved how that part was planted.

he speculated what he thinks happen. He proved nothing of the sort.

If you have other photos showing parts being pulled from the ground, I'm sure everyone here would love to see them, including me.

Sorry, can't help you.

I doubt the employees at United were also helping to dig out the plane.

Employees of UA were on the scene on September 11th. Mabey not doing the digging, but they were there. You have an opportunity to find out... will you?

Do you believe most of the plane was buried?

I don't know. I have told you this. Three times now.

But it is relevant because that part of the story is telling us where most of the plane went. If you can't not prove that claim, then that claim is an unproven claim.

If most of the plane was in the crater, then what's the problem? Do you happen to have someone with experience in airplane accidents that thinks this shouldn't be the case? I have asked repeatedly for you guys to post one name. So far nothing.

Don't you EVER see the irony in some of the stuff you type Cameron?

Originally posted by CameronFox

If you have other photos showing parts being pulled from the ground, I'm sure everyone here would love to see them, including me.

Sorry, can't help you.

Do you believe most of the plane was buried?

I don't know. I have told you this. Three times now.

You admit that there are almost no photos documenting the recovery procedure of the alleged buried plane (but that doesn't seem to strike you as a odd)

You also admit that you are 100% sure that a plane crashed, but not actually sure if it was was buried

Don't any doubts of the official story ever creep into your brain as you tap away? How about at night as you drift into sleep? Nope, I guess you will cling to the official story no matter what

reply to post by thedman

Like how many crash sites you been too?

Like, how many have you been to?

A high speed impact smashes the plane and its contents into something
resembling "mettalic confetti" with few large pieces.

It is my opinion, it looks like a dump truck dumped bone yard scraps at a crime scene.
We all know for a fact the FBI never investigated the airplane crash.

F.B.I. Counsel: No Attempt Made By F.B.I. To Formally Identify 9/11 Plane Wreckage

pilotsfor911truth.org...

So without proof to formally identify the planes at all the crash sites you have “nothing” but hearsay.

LOL, those pictures could have been taken at any airplane bone yard.
Is that all you have got, the government *word* and some pictures LOL
Oh look! Take a picture of that, lets take this picture of this rusty panel lol oh yah! That will fool those sheep, and let’s call it proof! Hey, lets go to another bone yard and poke around with a stick, and maybe we will find a Boeing 757 engine part and take some more pictures. American are such suckers, they will believe in almost everything we spoon feed them, well most of them anyway, there are those few we just cant fool, and these people are a problem. I know lets get the Press to call those, which do not believe in our lies, (conspiracy theorist) and say they are unpatriotic, and are supporting the terrorist. Yah, that will work and no one will listen to people who exposes our lies.

The crash site was searched for several weeks afterwards and all debris
recovered for analysis

Analysis of what? Who was searching in the debris, and what were they looking for?

Members of Southwestern Pennsylvania Emergency Response Group scoured a wooded area near the crash scene for airplane fragments and human remains. They found some of both.

I thought the plane slammed straight down and dug a hole and then buried it’s self, so tell me something here, how did airplane parts end up in the woods eh!

One more thing, I see you copy and past, pits and pieces of News articles without given us the sources and I have read this exact statement you have made from camronfox in an article he posted earlier to wonderwoman, what going here?

State Trooper Joseph Grove said the searchers, from 13 counties, worked shoulder to shoulder as far as a mile from where the plane slammed into the ground near Shanksville.

Where is your source for this?

Originally posted by alienanderson
You admit that there are almost no photos documenting the recovery procedure of the alleged buried plane (but that doesn't seem to strike you as a odd)

I admitted NO SUCH THING. What I stated was that I have not looked into the percentages as to where the debris was. There are MANY photographs of the collection efforts.

Where are the photographs of the remains of flight 1771?

You also admit that you are 100% sure that a plane crashed, but not actually sure if it was was buried

Only someone that wants to dismiss the abundance of evidence will be puzzled. I am not. If I felt it were necessary to dig deeper (no pun) into the plane debris I would.

Where are the photographs of the remains of flight 1771?

Don't any doubts of the official story ever creep into your brain as you tap away? How about at night as you drift into sleep? Nope, I guess you will cling to the official story no matter what

I deal with facts any only facts. When will you be presenting some that refute the "official story" regarding flight 93?

Originally posted by impressme

State Trooper Joseph Grove said the searchers, from 13 counties, worked shoulder to shoulder as far as a mile from where the plane slammed into the ground near Shanksville.

Where is your source for this?

I tell you what. Why don't you contact him and ask him for yourself? State Trooper Joseph Grove was just promoted to Sargent a few weeks ago.

PA Fraternal Order of Police Lodge No. 38Fraternal Order of Police

O’Rourke Memorial Lodge No. 38

P.O. Box 168

Milnesville, PA 18239

E-mail: [email protected]

Will you write him? Will you ask him FIRST HAND what he saw?

reply to post by CameronFox

I don't "think" what happened, I know as a fact; it was deliberately crashed.

Thank you.

I know”, 911 was an inside job.

Thank you.

reply to post by CameronFox

I tell you what. Why don't you contact him and ask him for yourself? State Trooper Joseph Grove was just promoted to Sargent a few weeks ago.

That post I posted was not at you so let thedman speak for himself, or are you thedmen as well? Furthermore I have not seen the source for this information. Thank you.

Originally posted by impressme
It is my opinion, it looks like a dump truck dumped bone yard scraps at a crime scene.

Since you have zero experience in airplane crash investigations, your opinion is not worth a whole heck of a lot. (no offense please)

We all know for a fact the FBI never investigated the airplane crash.

You are wrong. I suggest you contact FBI Agent William Crowley and ask him what he was doing in Shanksville on 9/11/01.

Federal Bureau of Investigation
3311 East Carson Street
Pittsburgh, PA 15203

Phone: (412) 432-4000
Fax: (412) 432-4188

Freedom of Information/Privacy Acts (FOIPA)

All requests to the Pittsburgh Division for information pursuant to the Freedom of Information/Privacy Acts should be directed in writing to:

Federal Bureau of Investigation

3311 East Carson Street

Pittsburgh, PA 15203

ATTN: Chief Division Counsel

go here for further instruction:pittsburgh.fbi.gov...

So without proof to formally identify the planes at all the crash sites you have “nothing” but hearsay.

You have a chance to make it first hand from the lead investigator of the FBI. Will you contact them?








[edit on 31-3-2009 by CameronFox]

Originally posted by impressme

I know”, 911 was an inside job.

Thank you.

See the difference.... I have facts.

Originally posted by impressme
Furthermore I have not seen the source for this information. Thank you.

www.post-gazette.com...

Volunteers scour Somerset County crash site, woods to remove debris

Sunday, September 30, 2001

By Joe Smydo, Post-Gazette Staff Writer

It was rough going, on hands and knees in some cases, looking for anything that didn't belong in the woods.

More than 300 volunteers gathered yesterday at the site in Somerset County where United Airlines Flight 93 crashed during the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

Members of Southwestern Pennsylvania Emergency Response Group scoured a wooded area near the crash scene for airplane fragments and human remains. They found some of both.

State Trooper Joseph Grove said the searchers, from 13 counties, worked shoulder to shoulder as far as a mile from where the plane slammed into the ground near Shanksville.

Since thedman isn't here, I thought this being an open forum, I would help you out and give you the information.

Let's try a different tack.It's been eight long years of mostly rehash.Fresh speculation here...

Who would have a camera at a crash scene?I don't think cell phone cameras were around back then.But there would be news,police,fire fighter,insurance,thrill seekers,FAA,United Airlines,spy satellites,foreign journalists,relatives of the deceased,landowner and neighbors.These are right off the top o' the head.And what kinds of camera?In Criminal,Capital cases these sorts of detail convict or acquit.
Can you imagine a defense attorney trying to convince a jury based on the evidence of either of the two sides presented here?The jury foreman would be asking to see the pictures too.If the pictures agree,that is enough to convict.

If you don't see the bomb crater that I do,we procure an accurate ruler,square and protractor and eliminate the impossibilities.And what remains,no matter how improbable,must be the correct answer.

We as CT Truthers do not have to prove the unlikely,all we have to do is disprove the impossible.Like it would be impossible for that(alleged flight 93) engine to have been excavated from deep underground,if the edge of the hole was still un excavated.Ya can't just dig straight down on soft earth,doncha know?There would have been a hole of at least an acre with a dump pile even bigger as sifting for evidence was carried out.

Since that engine was supposedly operating at normal high speed when it would have hit the ground in a 45% dive,the blades ought to be a bit more damaged than it looks.eh?(Just like the engine supposedly recovered at the Pentacon)it should have been clogged with debris relating to the ground in which it was allegedly recovered.This engine looks like it has been sitting for a while.After being burned.But no debris.That which bent the blades would be in the blades.Titanium has the highest modulus of elasticity of all metals.This means it bends more then springs back to it's original shape.
Conclusion? We're practicing on these guys who are acting so obtuse,which is well and good,but soon we need to recognize that there are a few who will not admit doubt and move on.Consensus minus one,we called it.We need pictures.

Originally posted by CameronFox

Originally posted by impressme

I know”, 911 was an inside job.

Thank you.

See the difference.... I have facts.

Hahaha, you have facts but no plane, what do that tell you?


D.Duck

reply to post by CameronFox

Since you have zero experience in airplane crash investigations, your opinion is not worth a whole heck of a lot. (no offense please)

We are not in here to discuss what my experience are or my opinions we are in here to discuss (KT Challenge@Shanksville,) so please stay on topic.

We all know for a fact the FBI never investigated the airplane crash.

You are wrong. I suggest you contact FBI Agent William Crowley and ask him what he was doing in Shanksville on 9/11/01.

Stop hand waving the facts.

F.B.I. Counsel: No Attempt Made By F.B.I. To Formally Indentify 9/11 Plane Wreckage

Publically Known Information Suggests Otherwise
Aidan Monaghan
Contained within a March 14, 2008 "DEFENDANT’S MOTION FOR ENLARGEMENT OF TIME TO RESPOND TO AMENDED COMPLAINT" with the Nevada District U.S. Court, concerning a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit filed by Mr. Aidan Monaghan (Case #: 2:07-cv-01614-RCJ-GWF) to order the production of Federal Bureau of Investigation records concerning the 4 aircraft involved in the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, Assistant U.S. Attorney Patrick A. Rose has indicated on behalf of the FBI, that records indicating the collection and positive identification of recovered wreckage created by these federally registered aircraft, do not exist.
Defendants motion reads in part:
"Since being served with the Summons and Amended Complaint, Federal Defendant, with assistance of its attorneys, has analyzed Plaintiff’s request and conducted a search for responsive records. Federal Defendant has determined that there are no responsive records. The identities of the airplanes hijacked in the September 11 attacks was never in question, and, therefore, there were no records generated “revealing the process by which wreckage recovered by defendant, from aircraft used during the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, was positively identified by defendant . . . as belonging to said aircraft . . .” (Amend Compl. Inj. Relief #15 at 1.)"
However, this claim is directly contradicted by public comments offered by Carol Carmody, Vice-Chairman National Transportation Safety Board and Marion C. Blakey, Chairman National Transportation Safety Board, who both indicated in 2002 that FBI director Robert Mueller requested NTSB assistance with 9/11 aircraft wreckage identification and that the NTSB did perform 9/11 aircraft wreckage identification analysis.
"I ... assured FBI Director Mueller that we would assist in any way we could ... he called and said, "Could you send us some people to help find the black boxes and help identify aircraft parts."
www.ntsb.gov...
"Over 60 Safety Board employees worked around the clock in Virginia, Pennsylvania, New York, and at our headquarters in Washington, D. C., assisting with aircraft parts identification"
www.ntsb.gov...
By FAA documents identified as "Summary of Air Traffic Hijack Events", pages 4 and 13, it is indicated that American Airlines flight 11 (N334AA) and United Airlines flight 175 (N612UA) were not transmitting proper transponder identification data at the time of their respective destructions and that therefore, proper aircraft registration identification cannot have been obtained from this absent or erroneous data.
www.gwu.edu...
By documents labeled "NOTES TO CHAPTER 1", page 456, of the "Final Report of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States" (2004), it is indicated that "the CVRs and FDRs from American 11 and United 175 were not found" and that therefore, proper aircraft registration identification cannot have been obtained from this absent data.
govinfo.library.unt.edu...
By document labeled "Specialist's Factual Report of Investigation Digital Flight Data Recorder" (American Airlines flight 77 - N644AA), it is revealed that the FDR's unique serial number identification information (traceable to a unique federally registered aircraft) is absent and that therefore, proper aircraft registration identification cannot be confirmed by this absent data.
www.911myths.com...
By document labeled "Specialist's Factual Report of Investigation Digital Flight Data Recorder" (United Airlines flight 93 - N591UA) it is revealed that the FDR's unique serial number identification information (traceable to a unique federally registered aircraft) is absent and that therefore, proper aircraft registration identification cannot be confirmed by this absent data.
www.gwu.edu...
The FBI's motion continues:
"As Federal Defendant has been focused on the search for records and the preparation of an explanatory letter to Plaintiff, it has not yet prepared a formal response to the Amended Complaint."
Documents for 2:07-cv-01614-RCJ-GWF can be accessed at The PACER Service Center.
"The PACER Service Center is the Federal Judiciary's centralized registration, billing, and technical support center for electronic access to U.S. District, Bankruptcy, and Appellate court

www.911blogger.com...

[edit on 31-3-2009 by impressme]