KT Challenge@Shanksville

reply to post by CameronFox

Says all the evidence. You refuse to look at it. I don't care if I don't win a popularity contest on a conspiracy forum. People here come to learn and to seek the "truth." I offer the facts for people to review and do what they want with it.

Get real!

you said " There is no evidence, only what you want to see." I have studied flight 93 more than any of the other conspiracies. I thought for certain that it was shot down. It took me about 4 hours to squash THAT conspiracy theory.

Your opinion only.

Because you can't see large parts of an airplane, you think that one didn't crash there? I posted to video of flight 1771 to show that during high speed crashes...there isn't much left. This is what happens.

You do not know what I think.

Besides the lack of photographic evidence WonderWoman, why don't you think UA Flight 93 crashed in Shanksville?

I will answer your question, when you answer mine question below that I had ask you.

CameronFox, why do you believe in the OS, and do not say you don’t because you just said “there is no conspiracy.”

Why file an FOIA with the FBI? The remnants of flight 93 is with it's owners. Try contacting United Airlines to see where it is. I can get you some phone numbers if you like. The office that handles these inquiries are in Boston. Let me know via U2U if you are interested.

What was the government doing given the crime scene crash parts back to the Airlines Company? I do not need to waste my time talking to the Airline companies that are under a gage order, to not to discuss 911 with anyone. (It may spark a lawsuit)

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by AllTiedTogether

 

So your contention is that the FBI is going to start purposely crashing commercial jetliners into buildings just to prove that some conspiracy junkies on the internet, that no one pays attention to anyway, are wrong?

You seem to be paying attention to us for some reason? Why, one must wonder.

Originally posted by WonderwomanUSA
Get real!

deflection noted

Your opinion only.

No W.W. I present FACTS. If I do present an opinion, it is typically noted as such.

You do not know what I think.

You are a no planer concerning Shanksville. Your posting in this shows your support of Killtowns fantasy. I don't know what you think. You think the "official story"

I will answer your question, when you answer mine question below that I had ask you.

This question?

CameronFox, why do you believe in the OS, and do not say you don’t because you just said “there is no conspiracy.”

I have answered it. The facts support the "OS." There is not one shred of reliable evidence that supports the No plane or Shoot down theory.

What was the government doing given the crime scene crash parts back to the Airlines Company? I do not need to waste my time talking to the Airline companies that are under a gage order, to not to discuss 911 with anyone. (It may spark a lawsuit)

The parts were given to UA after the investigation was completed. Just like any other air disaster.

reply to post by CameronFox

You are a no planer concerning Shanksville. Your posting in this shows your support of Killtowns fantasy. I don't know what you think. You think the "official story"

Oh Really! CameronFox, This topic is about (KT Challenge@Shanksville) and not about my beliefs or what you think I believe in, so please stay on topic.

CameronFox, why do you believe in the OS, and do not say you don’t because you just said “there is no conspiracy.”

I have answered it. The facts support the "OS." There is not one shred of reliable evidence that supports the No plane or Shoot down theory.

When did you answer my question?
What facts?

Where is Your proof, that has been accepted by real science, and has been peer reviewed and accepted in the journal of science. (NONE!)

There is not one shred of reliable evidences, that supports the OS on flight 93, and that is a fact.

The parts were given to UA after the investigation was completed. Just like any other air disaster.

That is a *lie*

F.B.I. Counsel: No Attempt Made By F.B.I. To Formally Identify 9/11 Plane Wreckage
Aidan Monaghan
03/18/08
Contained within a March 14, 2008 "DEFENDANT'S MOTION FOR ENLARGEMENT OF TIME TO RESPOND TO AMENDED COMPLAINT" with the Nevada District U.S. Court, concerning a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit filed by Mr. Aidan Monaghan (Case #: 2:07-cv-01614-RCJ-GWF) to order the production of Federal Bureau of Investigation records concerning the 4 aircraft involved in the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, Assistant U.S. Attorney Patrick A. Rose has indicated on behalf of the FBI, that records indicating the collection and positive identification of recovered wreckage created by these federally registered aircraft, do not exist.

pilotsfor911truth.org...

the 9/11 Commission assumed the truth of the official story that Flight 93 crashed in Shanksville, Pennsylvania, completely leaving out the fact that debris from the plane began to fall to the ground 8 miles before the 'crash' site, and that the local Coronor soon left the ‘crash’ site
because there were no bodies or body parts to investigate;

these and countless other unasked and unanswered questions, omissions, distortions, inconsistencies, and lies by the 9/11 Commission and its Report make a mockery of the Commission's mandate to conduct an independent and thorough investigation of the attacks of Sept. 11, constituting at best gross malfeasance and at worst criminal obstruction of justice;

www.boston911truth.org...

reply to post by CameronFox

UNITED 93 DATA PROVIDED BY US GOVERNMENT DOES NOT SUPPORT OBSERVED EVENTS
1. The NTSB Flight Path Animation approach path and altitude does not support observations.

2. All Altitude data on the northern approach contradicts witnesses published by the New York Times.
3. Witness observations of approach path contradict northern approach as described by Popular Mechanics and the US Govt. Several witnesses observed the aircraft approaching from southeast over Indian Lake and from the south prior to witnessing explosion. Parts found in New Baltimore, 8 miles southeast of crater is a direct contradiction to the northern approach claimed by the US Govt.
4. Environmental Protection Agency reports no soil contamination of jet fuel after testing 5,000-6,000 yards of earth including 3 ground wells. Smoke plume photographed by a witness does not suggest a jet fuel rich explosion.
5. Impact angle according to Flight Data Recorder does not support an almost vertical impact as the govt story and crater suggests
6. In May, 2007, members of Pilots for 9/11 Truth received these documents from the NTSB and began a close analysis of the data they contain. After expert review and cross check, Pilots for 9/11 Truth has concluded that the information in these NTSB documents does not support, and in some instances factually contradicts, the official government position that United Airlines Flight 93 created the impact crater as reported, in Somerset County, PA on the morning of
September 11, 2001
.According to the US Govt, United Airlines Flight 93 approached Somerset County from the North-Northwest at a high altitude on the morning of
September 11, 200

1
. However, many witnesses contradict altitude as well as approach path.

Also according to reports, and as the impact crater suggests, United Airlines Flight 93 impacted terrain at an almost vertical 90 degree angle, while the Flight Data Recorder shows a 35 degree angle with up-sloping terrain, further reducing impact angle.

The information provided by the US Government does not support reports of United Airlines Flight 93 approach, impact angles, and lack of jet fuel at Somerset Country, PA.

pilotsfor911truth.org...

This video make a convincing case that the supposed Flight 93 impact point is a bomb crater sitting over a pre-existing strip-mining scar. The absence of actual plane wreckage supports the conclusion that Flight 93 was actually destroyed in mid air, with the resulting wreckage coming down over an 8 mile area.

www.youtube.com...

camronfox, everyone has got it wrong, but not you, and these stupid pilots wouldn’t know what protocol was, if it hit them in the face, but you do.

Originally posted by WonderwomanUSA
Oh Really! CameronFox, This topic is about (KT Challenge@Shanksville) and not about my beliefs or what you think I believe in, so please stay on topic.

Killtown is stating that a plane never crashed in Shanksville. He is also stating in this video that one was not shot down.

Therefore, he is a no planer. Do you agree or disagree that flight 93 crashed in Shanksville?

CameronFox, why do you believe in the OS, and do not say you don’t because you just said “there is no conspiracy.”


When did you answer my question?
What facts?

Here you go:

Evidence Summary: 10 Points

1) The four hijackers purchased tickets under their own names and boarded the plane. One was randomly selected for and passed additional security screening. Ziad Jarrah was a licensed pilot and had recent training on professional large jet flight simulators. United flight 93 was scheduled to depart at 8:00 am, but left 42 minutes late due to airport traffic. Aboard were 33 passengers, 7 crew members, and 4 hijackers.

2) Several passengers and crew called from the plane, spoke with loved ones, described the hijackers' attack, and related their plan to try to retake the plane so that it would not be used as a suicide weapon against a populated area. All but two of these calls were made using the plane's seatback Airfones.

3) The cockpit voice recorder recorded the hijackers' attack and apparent murder of the pilots and a flight attendant. Air traffic controllers heard a radio transmission by a man with an Arabic accent, warning of a bomb on board. Passengers reported that one of the hijackers had what appeared to be a bomb strapped to him.

4) After learning about the other attacks, passengers and cabin crew attempted to retake the cockpit but were apparently unable to gain entry. The sound of their attempts was recorded on the CVR. The CVR also recorded the hijackers' decision to end the flight, followed by repeated shouts of "Allahu Akbar!" ("God is greatest.") until the plane crashed. Families of victims heard the CVR recording.

5) Flight 93 was tracked by radar until it went down.

6) Many people in Pennsylvania saw the Boeing 757, traveling at low altitude and high speed, roll to the right and plummet upside-down, nose first, towards the ground. Many people witnessed the subsequent enormous explosion and fireball. Val McClatchey photographed the mushroom cloud.

7) Hundreds of first responders (mostly volunteer firefighters) and crime scene investigators were quickly on the scene. They saw human remains, aircraft wreckage, personal effects, jet fuel, etc.
The cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder were recovered and had usable data, all of which is consistent with the other evidence.

8) The remains of every victim was positively identified. Somerset County Coroner Wallace Miller personally collected many remains and made 12 identifications through fingerprints and dental records. Personal effects of most passengers and crew were recovered and returned to their families.

9) Hijacker identification documents and personal effects were recovered, along with the remains of four people identified as the hijackers through the process of elimination.

10) Nearly all of the aircraft was recovered by professional investigators and by civilians. The debris was returned to United Airlines after being examined for evidence of explosives use.

Where is Your proof, that has been accepted by real science, and has been peer reviewed and accepted in the journal of science (NONE!)

Proof is above. What peer reviewed process is needed for a hijacking and deliberate crash?

There is not one shred of reliable evidences, that supports the OS on flight 93, and that is a fact.

See above. Please prove your facts by refuting the 10 points above.

The parts were given to UA after the investigation was completed. Just like any other air disaster.

That is a *lie*

Try reading what you posted again. I will expect an apology for you calling me a liar. Then read this:

"Evidence-gathering was halted Saturday afternoon and the pieces of United Airlines Flight 93 that had been recovered were turned over Sunday to the airline,with the exception of the flight data recorder and the voice recorder, which are being held and analyzed by the FBI, according to FBI agent Bill Crowley."

CNN

the 9/11 Commission assumed the truth of the official story that Flight 93 crashed in Shanksville, Pennsylvania, completely leaving out the fact that debris from the plane began to fall to the ground 8 miles before the 'crash' site, and that the local Coronor soon left the ‘crash’ site
because there were no bodies or body parts to investigate;

Wonder Woman... your friends at the Boston Chapter of 911 truth are sadly mistaken.

The debris didn't "begin" to fall. It ended there. Why don't you dig a little and learn as to what was found. hint: small pieces of nylon and paper. Things that typically get blown around with an 11MPH wind. (you can confirm the wind speed with a little more digging)

Wally Miller (the coroner) did not soon leave the site.
Washington Post

reply to post by CameronFox

Killtown is stating that a plane never crashed in Shanksville. He is also stating in this video that one was not shot down.

So, he is aloud his opinions, since when did you take opinions as facts?

Therefore, he is a no planer. Do you agree or disagree that flight 93 crashed in Shanksville?

I have not seen, or read any credible proof, that supports a plane really crashed in Shanksville. All you keep presenting to me is what he said, and she said, and I am not impressed these are only people opinions nothing more. I am only interested in science that proves the truth, not what some government official says.
It really saddens me to know that, our government lies to us when it benefits them lol they do it all the time (tell me if I am wrong)

United Airlines Flight 93
This flight was reported by the federal government to be a Boeing 757 aircraft, registration number N591UA, carrying 45 persons, including four Arab hijackers who had taken control of the aircraft, crashing the plane in a Pennsylvania farm field.
Aerial photos of the alleged crash site were made available to the general public. They show a shallow, smoking hole in the ground, but private investigators were not allowed to come anywhere near the alleged crash site. If an aircraft crash caused the hole in the ground, there would have literally hundreds of serially controlled time-change parts within the hole that would have proven beyond any shadow of doubt the precise tail-number or identity of the aircraft. However, the government has not produced any physical evidence that would prove beyond doubt, the specific identity of the aircraft that allegedly crashed at that site. On the contrary, it was reported that the aircraft, registry number N591UA, was still in operation for several weeks after September 11, 2001 .

pilotsfor911truth.org...

1) The four hijackers purchased tickets under their own names and boarded the plane. One was randomly selected for and passed additional security screening. Ziad Jarrah was a licensed pilot and had recent training on professional large jet flight simulators. United flight 93 was scheduled to depart at 8:00 am, but left 42 minutes late due to airport traffic. Aboard were 33 passengers, 7 crew members, and 4 hijackers.

You are parroting the News, you have no proof FOX, CNN, CBS, BBC, all said Blab blab, blab, blab and our sources came straight from the White House.

The FBI says there is no evidence to link the above men to the 9/11 hijackings.
In September 2002, [FBI Director Robert Mueller] told CNN twice that there is "no legal proof to prove the identities of the suicidal hijackers." [Insight]
So, one fact is apparent. If those who hijacked the 9/11 airplanes were using stolen identities, then we don't know who they were or who they worked for. We can't. It's impossible.
Now, people who are intending to commit suicide normally don't worry about whether anyone knows their real name, and it is here that some other odd aspects of this case take on a new meaning.

whatreallyhappened.com...

Hijack 'suspects' alive and well

news.bbc.co.uk...

ALLEGED 9/11 HIJACKERS:
UNITED AIRLINES Flight 93
Mr Al-Ghamdi was named as a terrorist on the United Airlines flight that crashed in Pennsylvania - a plane said by some experts to have been heading for the White House. He first knew that he was on the FBI's list when he was told by a colleague. Speaking from Tunisia, he said: "I was completely shocked. For the past 10 months I have been based in Tunis with 22 other pilots learning to fly an Airbus 320. The FBI provided no evidence of my presumed involvement in the attacks. "You cannot imagine what it is like to be described as a terrorist - and a dead man - when you are innocent and alive." [Telegraph]
"It's impossible for us to believe [the United States] anymore," said Taha Alghamdi, a salesman in Jeddah whose brother Saeed was mistakenly confused with another man by the same name who hijacked United Flight 93, which crashed into a field in Pennsylvania. "What sort of intelligence agency doesn't know that there are thousands of Saeed Alghamdis in Saudi Arabia?" Alghamdi said. "It is like accusing Tom from New York." Like others, Alghamdi said his family would be pursuing legal action against the U.S. government for defamation. [Chicago Tribune]

whatreallyhappened.com...

reply to post by CameronFox

At Least 7 of the 9/11
Hijackers are Still Alive
National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States
The muscle hijackers 'picked by bin Ladin':
Satam al Suqami, Wail and Waleed al Shehri (two brothers) Both Alive, Abdul Aziz al Omari Alive, Fayez Banihammad (from the UAE), Ahmed al Ghamdi, Hamza al Ghamdi, Mohand al Shehri Alive, Saeed al Ghamdi Alive, Ahmad al Haznawi, Ahmed al Nami Alive, Majed Moqed, and Salem al Hazmi Alive (the brother of Nawaf al Hazmi).
How can the 9/11 Commission be taken seriously when they refer to alive 'hijackers'?

9/11 Airport Surveillance Video Discrepancies

The story that the hijackers used box-cutters and plastic knives in the attack on the World Trade Center is a functional fictoid. In this case, the function was diversion. This fictoid serves to divert public attentions from the responsibility, and legal liability, of the government and airlines to prevent major weapons- such as guns, bombs, chemical sprays and hunting knives from being carried aboard airplanes. If such illegal devices had been smuggled aboard the planes, the liability could amount to billions of dollars. If, on the other hand, it could be disseminated that the hijackers had only used plastic knives, such as those provided by the airlines for meals, or box cutters, which were allowed on planes, neither the airlines, the screeners at the airport, or the FAA, which regulates the safety of airports, could be held legally responsible. [Full Details]
Several major news organizations wrongly identified at least four pilots of Middle Eastern descent as likely hijackers. Two of the wrongly suspected pilots had Arabic names similar to those of two dead hijackers. A pilot living next door to one of them became a third wrong suspect. A pilot with the same last name became the fourth wrong suspect -- even though he'd been dead for a year. [Wall Street Journal]
The BBC reported a transcript of a phone call made by Flight Attendant Madeline Amy Sweeney to Boston air traffic controls in which she gave the seat numbers occupied by the hijackers, and these seat numbers did not correspond with those of the men claimed by the FBI to be responsible for the hijacking:

whatreallyhappened.com...

reply to post by CameronFox

2) Several passengers and crew called from the plane, spoke with loved ones, described the hijackers' attack, and related their plan to try to retake the plane so that it would not be used as a suicide weapon against a populated area. All but two of these calls were made using the plane's seatback Airfones.

You shouldn’t believe in all that media hype from the White House.

911 Cell Phone Calls From
Planes? Not Likely
Or, Why phone calls cannot be made from planes without PicoCell technology

No one, with a knowledge of antenna technology could subscribe to phone calls from planes, and here are some basic reasons why. This is somewhat technical, but this needs to be shown why this is virtually impossible. I'll attempt to simplify it.

1. ANTENNAS - All antennas are characterized by what is known as a "lobe pattern." The lobe pattern or area the antenna is designed to serve is a result of it's physical shape and other factors. The best omni-directional antenna is that of the single element antenna, or single dipole antenna such as is used on all cell phones. This has a circular lobe pattern. Note that this is not the same antenna used on cell towers.

Directional antennas are widely used in TV and radio to maximize a service area. A receive and transmit radio frequency (RF) pattern of any directional antenna is a roughly eliptical shape, or egg shape. An example are AM radio towers, which may use other towers near them. These other towers can be grounded to act as reflectors and direct service to a nearby city. The FCC determines when and where antenna directional technology can be used, and by which stations. Reflecting antennas can also be used to prevent interference with other stations.

Cell tower antennas use a specially designed directional antenna which incorporates a reflector. This reflector is carefully designed to create a directed radiation pattern directed over a large 2 dimensional area. These reflectors work very much like the reflector you see in a floodlight. Directional antenna characteristics are what divides a geographic region into cells. Any given antenna type has the same receive and transmit lobe pattern.

Today you can see that most all visible cell towers have a triangular pattern of antennas. This clearly shows that the 360 degree area around a cell tower is divided up into three groups of antennas, with each group facing one of three directions. Each antenna group lobe pattern slightly overlaps the other. The FCC determines the effective radiated power in watts of any transmitter, including cell tower antennas. Therefore, every watt must be used efficiently for best signal quality (such as it is.) Cell tower antenna design dictates that only a VERY small amount of RF is radiated vertically up into the air, as this is considered lost RF energy.

2. AIRPLANES - An airplane is made of aluminum alloy. It is NOT transparent RF frequencies, but instead acts as a shield. Sections of the plane made of carbon composite will greatly attenutate or even stop all cell phone signals, as this is also conductive material. Only when a cell phone has "line of sight" with a cell tower, can a talk connection take place. And such a talk connection can only take place THROUGH A WINDOW ON THE PLANE, because the body of a plane cannot pass the signal from a cell phone.

3. Cell tower antennas use power levels of 100 watts or more and group of antennas can have power levels of 800 watts. However, a pocket cell phone only transmits an RF signal of less than 1 watt, with many phones transmitting just .4 watts. No phone call can be made until the cell tower receives this tiny signal and establishes a channel with the phone by assigning the phone a frequency to talk on. This basic procedure takes place on both digital and analog cell phones. Only the older, bigger bag phones can output up to 4 watts of power, which almost no one uses anymore.

In conclusion we have:

A. A plane moving at more than 500 MPH

B. Plane windows acting as small aperatures for a cell phone RF signal. This forces the cell phone antenna to become highly directional, but without any increase in gain. There is no gain because plane is not a reflector or resonant cavity tuned to cell frequencies.

C. The cell phone is rapidly moving past cell towers that may or may not be in line with the side of the plane. If a tower happens to be in line with the side of the plane when it turns, such a connection will not last but few seconds, if at all.

D. The pocket cell phone signal of less than 1 watt must be received before the call can be placed.

E. Cell antennas have a weak signal lobe above them, making establishing a connection with a phone
unlikely.

So, how could a phone call be made ?

The "911 - In Plane Sight" proves beyond a doubt, that at least one windowless plane was used on the second tower. Imagine the challenge of trying to make a cell phone call, from completely shielded window-less plane ! Network video enlargements clearly show it was armed with a missile which is clearly visible when it was launched. The detailed phone dialogs we've read about from those that "called from the plane" can only be fiction and theatre.

Since we know the flights did depart from airports, these same people could not be allowed to live to tell the story of the fictional flight. If they did make phone calls, it might have been at gunpoint on the ground somewhere. It's likely they all went to the bottom of the ocean with their knowledge.


Ted Twietmeyer is the founder of www.data4science.net... which explores charted and uncharted regions of science. The website both encourages public participation, and also provides a way for the public to participate in science projects.

www.rense.com...

International airline to allow cell phone chatter on planes
POSTED: 12:29 p.m. EST, December 21, 2006
Whether people like it or not, in-flight cell phone use is going to become a reality," he said.
NEW YORK (CNN) -- From cell phone use to high-speed Internet access, the connected life is spreading to the sU.S. carriers don't allow in-flight cell phone calls, although the FAA is reviewing the safety concerns associated with mobile calls made in the air.

www.cnn.com...

Cell Phones In Flight Considered
Bloomberg News
Thursday, December 9, 2004; Page E06
The Federal Communications Commission is considering loosening a ban on using cell phones in airplanes.
Loosening the ban could benefit wireless carriers such as Sprint Corp. as travelers use in-flight time to work and communicate, though most cell phones won't work once a plane reaches its cruising altitude, said Sprint spokeswoman Mary Nell Westbrook.
"Once you get to a certain height, you are no longer in the range of the cellular network" because cell phone towers aren't built to project their signals that high, she said. The technology is "difficult now, but it's not something that can't happen in the future." Federal Aviation Administration spokeswoman Laura Brown said the agency doesn't have its own ban on in-flight cell-phone use, though it has supported the FCC's rule and individual airline policies that regulate whether a traveler can make calls once a plane lands and before it reaches the gate.
While the FCC prohibits in-flight cell phone use because of concerns that communication by callers in airplanes will interfere with calls between on-ground users, the FAA is focused on whether cell phone use will interfere with a plane's navigation system, Brown said. An independent organization is reviewing that issue for the agency, she said.
FCC officials will probably vote next week on whether to put the matter up for public discussion and won't decide immediately, Patrich said.

www.washingtonpost.com...

reply to post by CameronFox

3) The cockpit voice recorder recorded the hijackers' attack and apparent murder of the pilots and a flight attendant. Air traffic controllers heard a radio transmission by a man with an Arabic accent, warning of a bomb on board. Passengers reported that one of the hijackers had what appeared to be a bomb strapped to him.

This info is only hear say, from a so call cockpit voice recorder that anyone can do in a back room. Sorry I just have a problem at taken the government word, because they have lied to us. I would like to actually see the cockpit voice recorder serial numbers to see if it really belongs to flight 93 until then you have no proof of the above.

4) After learning about the other attacks, passengers and cabin crew attempted to retake the cockpit but were apparently unable to gain entry. The sound of their attempts was recorded on the CVR. The CVR also recorded the hijackers' decision to end the flight, followed by repeated shouts of "Allahu Akbar!" ("God is greatest.") until the plane crashed. Families of victims heard the CVR recording.

Again we have no proof that those CVR belong to said airplane, many people like me want proof, the FBI is not willing to release the serial numbers to match to the real airplane, most people are not that gullible, and we do not trust official that worked for the Bush administration. All you are doing is parroting the media, what happened to denying ignorance.

7) Hundreds of first responders (mostly volunteer firefighters) and crime scene investigators were quickly on the scene. They saw human remains, aircraft wreckage, personal effects, jet fuel, etc.
The cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder were recovered and had usable data, all of which is consistent with the other evidence.

the 9/11 Commission assumed the truth of the official story that Flight 93 crashed in Shanksville, Pennsylvania, completely leaving out the fact that debris from the plane began to fall to the ground 8 miles before the 'crash' site, and that the local Coronor soon left the ‘crash’ site
because there were no bodies or body parts to investigate;

www.boston911truth.org...

9) Hijacker identification documents and personal effects were recovered, along with the remains of four people identified as the hijackers through the process of elimination.

So said the FBI and they claim they where able to do DNA on all the highjackers, uh, the problem you have with this lie is this:

The FBI says there is no evidence to link the above men to the 9/11 hijackings.
In September 2002, [FBI Director Robert Mueller] told CNN twice that there is "no legal proof to prove the identities of the suicidal hijackers." [Insight]
So, one fact is apparent. If those who hijacked the 9/11 airplanes were using stolen identities, then we don't know who they were or who they worked for. We can't. It's impossible.
Now, people who are intending to commit suicide normally don't worry about whether anyone knows their real name, and it is here that some other odd aspects of this case take on a new meaning.

whatreallyhappened.com...

10) Nearly all of the aircraft was recovered by professional investigators and by civilians. The debris was returned to United Airlines after being examined for evidence of explosives use.

Really well you need to read this then.

F.B.I. Counsel: No Attempt Made By F.B.I. To Formally Identify 9/11 Plane Wreckage
Aidan Monaghan
03/18/08
Contained within a March 14, 2008 "DEFENDANT'S MOTION FOR ENLARGEMENT OF TIME TO RESPOND TO AMENDED COMPLAINT" with the Nevada District U.S. Court, concerning a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit filed by Mr. Aidan Monaghan (Case #: 2:07-cv-01614-RCJ-GWF) to order the production of Federal Bureau of Investigation records concerning the 4 aircraft involved in the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, Assistant U.S. Attorney Patrick A. Rose has indicated on behalf of the FBI, that records indicating the collection and positive identification of recovered wreckage created by these federally registered aircraft, do not exist.
Defendants motion reads in part:
"Since being served with the Summons and Amended Complaint, Federal Defendant, with assistance of its attorneys, has analyzed Plaintiff's request and conducted a search for responsive records. Federal Defendant has determined that there are no responsive records. The identities of the airplanes hijacked in the September 11 attacks was never in question, and, therefore, there were no records generated "revealing the process by which wreckage recovered by defendant, from aircraft used during the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, was positively identified by defendant . . . as belonging to said aircraft . . . (Amend Compl. Inj. Relief #15 at 1.)"
However, this claim is directly contradicted by public comments offered by Carol Carmody, Vice-Chairman National Transportation Safety Board and Marion C. Blakey, Chairman National Transportation Safety Board, who both indicated in 2002 that FBI director Robert Mueller requested NTSB assistance with 9/11 aircraft wreckage identification and that the NTSB did perform 9/11 aircraft wreckage identification analysis. Full Article

pilotsfor911truth.org...

Where is Your proof, that has been accepted by real science, and has been peer reviewed and accepted in the journal of science (NONE!)
Proof is above. What peer reviewed process is needed for a hijacking and deliberate crash?

Get real!

There is not one shred of reliable evidences, that supports the OS on flight 93, and that is a fact
See above. Please prove your facts by refuting the 10 points above.

I have, however, you will just hand wave everything I have presented, you always do.
The entire story you have presented is false and that is a FACT.

Try reading what you posted again. I will expect an apology for you calling me a liar. Then read this:

I never called you anything, and that is a fact.

"Evidence-gathering was halted Saturday afternoon and the pieces of United Airlines Flight 93 that had been recovered were turned over Sunday to the airline,with the exception of the flight data recorder and the voice recorder, which are being held and analyzed by the FBI, according to FBI agent Bill Crowley
CNN ."

This does not prove anything, just more hear say from the FBI ( oh yes they NEVER lie!)

I am sorry, I don’t sit at home and lap up CNN spun News, maybe you do, however I spend my time researching the truth, which you will not get on TV lol

the 9/11 Commission assumed the truth of the official story that Flight 93 crashed in Shanksville, Pennsylvania, completely leaving out the fact that debris from the plane began to fall to the ground 8 miles before the 'crash' site, and that the local Coronor soon left the ‘crash’ site
because there were no bodies or body parts to investigate;

Wonder Woman... your friends at the Boston Chapter of 911 truth are sadly mistaken.

Really, care to prove me wrong?

The debris didn't "begin" to fall. It ended there. Why don't you dig a little and learn as to what was found. hint: small pieces of nylon and paper. Things that typically get blown around with an 11MPH wind. (you can confirm the wind speed with a little more digging)

The Crash of Flight 93
Crashing Plane Leaves Debris Field Miles Wide
This photograph shows one of the exhibits used in the 2006 trial of Zaccharias Moussai. It bears the label:
Exh. GX-PA00111
Red bandana recovered from the United Airlines Flight 93 crash site
Perhaps the jet-crash-proof bandana is made from the same material as the jet-crash-proof passport that emerged from the fiery crash of Flight 11 into the North Tower. We shouldn't be too surprised that the suicide hijackers had access to undreamt-of materials technologies, given their ability to achieve air supremacy over America's trillion-dollar military.

911research.wtc7.net...

Flight 93 Crash Site
Rural Pennsylvania Crash Site of the Fourth Jet Commandeered on September 11th

"A second debris field was around Indian Lake about 3 miles from the crash scene. Some debris was in the lake and some was adjacent to the lake. "More debris from the plane was found in New Baltimore, some 8 miles away from the crash. "State police and the FBI initially said they didn't want to speculate whether the debris was from the crash, or if the plane could have broken up in midair."

Additionally, Flight 93's debris field covered anywhere from three to six miles and, as CNN reported, pieces of the plane were found six to eight miles from the main impact area: "Authorities also said another debris site had been cordoned off six to eight miles away from the original crash debris site."

911research.wtc7.net...

Flight 93:
Proof of 9/11 Lies by the US Government and Media
Minutes before the 10 a.m. crash, an emergency dispatcher in Pennsylvania received a cell phone call from a man who said he was a passenger locked in a bathroom aboard United Flight 93. The man repeatedly said the call was not a hoax, said dispatch supervisor Glenn Cramer in neighboring Westmoreland County. "We are being hijacked, we are being hijacked!" Cramer quoted the man from a transcript of the call. The man told dispatchers the plane "was going down. He heard some sort of explosion and saw white smoke coming from the plane and we lost contact with him," Cramer said. [Yahoo News, Tuesday September 11 11:27 PM EDT]

"I know of two people - I will not mention names - that heard a missile," [Mayor Ernie Stuhl] said. "They both live very close, within a couple of hundred yards. . .This one fellow's served in Vietnam and he says he's heard them, and he heard one that day." The mayor adds that based on what he knows about that morning, military F-16 fighter jets were "very, very close." [philly.com]

[I]nvestigators also are combing a second crime scene in nearby Indian Lake, where residents reported hearing the doomed jetliner flying over at a low altitude before "falling apart on their homes."

"People were calling in and reporting pieces of plane falling," a state trooper said. Jim Stop reported he had seen the hijacked Boeing 757 fly over him as he was fishing. He said he could see parts falling from the plane. [pittsburghlive.com]

...human remains were found miles from the crash scene...

Finding the flight data recorder had been the focus of investigators as they widened their search area today following the discoveries of more debris, including what appeared to be human remains, miles from the point of impact at a reclaimed coal mine. [Pittsburgh Post Gazette]

"Pennsylvania state police officials said on Thursday debris from the plane had been found up to 8 miles away [from the crash site] in a residential community where local media have quoted residents as speaking of a second plane in the area and burning debris falling from the sky." [Idaho Observer]

...and the following footage proves Flight 93 did not crash in a single piece but came apart in midair and scattered over a wide area:
[F]ederal investigators said on Thursday they could not rule out the possibility that the United jet was shot down. "We have not ruled out that," FBI agent Bill Crowley told a news conference when asked about reports that a U.S. fighter jet may have fired on the hijacked Boeing 757. "We haven't ruled out anything yet." [CBS 58 News]
[I]t was a Canadian general at Norad who scrambled military jets under orders from Bush to shoot down a hijacked commercial aircraft headed for Washington. [cnews]

...Donald Rumsfeld said the plane was shot down...

...and in the opening remarks of a Guantanamo trial it was said the plane was shot down:

whatreallyhappened.com...


Yet the official story removes all evidence of a shoot down, specifically the phone call reporting an explosion and smoke on board the aircraft while it was in flight, and the same media that carried early reports of evidence of a shoot down now parrots the official version without question.
The important point here isn't the shoot down. Most people would agree that under the circumstances, it was the best course of action. The point is that we are seeing clear evidence of the manipulation of information being fed to the public regarding 9/11.
What else is the government concealing about 9/11?

You see CF, you are not the only one that can quote from the Press.
So, I believe the OS is a lie, or are you saying that all these people are lying to.

CF, you need to do some real research, you can U2U me, and I will help you.

Wally Miller (the coroner) did not soon leave the site.
Washington Post

Well see, I just proved to you the Press lies.



[edit on 27-3-2009 by WonderwomanUSA]

[edit on 27-3-2009 by WonderwomanUSA]

reply to post by CameronFox
double post, sorry.

[edit on 27-3-2009 by WonderwomanUSA]

reply to post by WonderwomanUSA


Hi Wonderwoman,

I do not hand wave evidence. I don’t need to be taught how to do proper research. Your very detailed posts are filled with conjecture, hearsay, old recanted stories, and in some cases lies (not by you, your sources).

I am going to present facts to you once more. You can’t poo poo all the media. You look WHERE they are getting their information. If you don’t believe them, look into the source. Who are they interviewing? Where did THEY get their information? Are they speculating? Is it hearsay? Please look at my sources. They include not only national media, but local media, local television, and books written from 911.

You claim to have not seen any evidence of flight 93 crashing in Shanksville?

First of all, allow me to present in more detail the facts (with links) that may or may not help you. I will start with witness statements.


Witness Statements:
Many people in Pennsylvania witnessed the Boeing 757.They stated it was:

* traveling at low altitude and
*high speed,
*roll to the right and plummet upside-down,
*nose first, towards the ground.
*many witnessed the inredible explosion and fireball.
*local real-estate broker Val McClatchey photographed the mushroom cloud.

Please see:

Bob Blair:

“I saw the plane flying upside down overhead and crash into the nearby trees. My buddy, Doug, and I grabbed our fire extinguishers and ran to the scene,” said Blair

/guct4

Informative Story written by members of the Post-Gazette staff:

Day of Terror: Outside tiny Shanksville, a fourth deadly stroke
www.post-gazette.com...

The ensuing firestorm lasted five or 10 minutes and reached several hundred yards into the sky, said Joe Wilt, 63, who also lives a quarter-mile from the crash site.

–Joe Wilt
Source: "Jetliner Was Diverted Toward Washington Before Crash in Pa." The Washington Post September 12, 2001

Rob Kimmel, several miles from the crash site: He sees it fly overhead, banking hard to the right. It is 200 feet or less off the ground as it crests a hill to the southeast. "I saw the top of the plane, not the bottom."

Source: Among the Heroes, by Jere Longman, p. 210-211

Tom Fritz, about a quarter-mile from the crash site: He hears a sound that "wasn't quite right" and looks up in the sky. "It dropped all of a sudden, like a stone," going "so fast that you couldn't even make out what color it was."

Source: St. Petersburg Times, 9/12/01

Terry Butler "It dropped out of the clouds." The plane rose slightly, trying to gain altitude, then "it just went flip to the right and then straight down."

Source: Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 9/12/01

Lee Purbaugh, 300 yards away: "There was an incredibly loud rumbling sound and there it was, right there, right above my head – maybe 50 feet up.... I saw it rock from side to side then, suddenly, it dipped and dived, nose first, with a huge explosion, into the ground. I knew immediately that no one could possibly have survived."

Source: The Independent, 8/13/02

Tim Thornsberg, working in a nearby strip mine: "It came in low over the trees and started wobbling. Then it just rolled over and was flying upside down for a few seconds ... and then it kind of stalled and did a nose dive over the trees."

Source: WPIX Channel 11, 9/13/01

3 video statements from eyewitnesses:


After reading this, I encourage you to look at the FDR information.

Flight Data Report:
www.ntsb.gov...

ATS Report Flight 93:
www.ntsb.gov...

Recorded Radar Data Study (all four hijacked aircraft are on this link):
www.ntsb.gov...

Please keep in mind that due to the damage, the FDR was taken to it's manufacturer: Honeywell. They evaluated it and downloaded the information. (binary codes)

I hope this sheds a little light on some questions you may have. I will address your points you made a little later. I am at work today and pretty busy.

-CF




[edit on 27-3-2009 by CameronFox]

reply to post by CameronFox

Game is over! We can go back and forth, however you will “deny” every fact that is handed to you. I am not playing anymore, find some one else to play with, I have better thing to do with my time.

It is obvious, by reading all your posts, you are a dire hard OS believer, I on the other hand like to stay in the real world, and not live in a fantasy.

Your info you have presented is a fallacy, and I refuse to read, and argue with you any more. This is not debating, you are playing a “Childs game” So good day to ya.

reply to post by WonderwomanUSA


Wonderwoman,

I was attempting to have a civil discussion with you. I assumed that you were interested in learning. It appears that I was mistaken.

Can you please do me on favor? Explain to me what fallacy I am guilty of.

Thanks,

-CF

Originally posted by WonderwomanUSA

You shouldn’t believe in all that media hype from the White House.

911 Cell Phone Calls From
Planes? Not Likely
Or, Why phone calls cannot be made from planes without PicoCell technology

Of all the calls on flight 93, only two were from a cell phone. The rest were from the Airphones on the backs of the seat. If you look into the 911 Call made by Ed Felt, you will see that the 911 operator had trouble hearing him and that the call cut in and out several times.

Your entire post on cell phones is actually unnecessary. But thank you for the information.

I will address your other posts.











[edit on 27-3-2009 by CameronFox]

Originally posted by WonderwomanUSA

This info is only hear say, from a so call cockpit voice recorder that anyone can do in a back room. Sorry I just have a problem at taken the government word, because they have lied to us. I would like to actually see the cockpit voice recorder serial numbers to see if it really belongs to flight 93 until then you have no proof of the above.

I can't help you with the CVR serial numbers. I am not sure why that would happen seeing that considering all the hoops the government jumpped through to complete this Conspiracy... if would be pretty simple to lie about a few number. Don't you think?

What I can tell you is that relatives of those that died on Flight 93 were allowed to listen to the CVR and some claimed to have heard their loved ones voices.

Again we have no proof that those CVR belong to said airplane, many people like me want proof, the FBI is not willing to release the serial numbers to match to the real airplane, most people are not that gullible, and we do not trust official that worked for the Bush administration. All you are doing is parroting the media, what happened to denying ignorance.

No, I am repeating what I read regarding the CVR. See above

..... plane began to fall to the ground 8 miles before the 'crash' site, and that the local Coronor soon left the ‘crash’ site
because there were no bodies or body parts to investigate;

www.boston911truth.org...

You were shown this to be false. Why repeat it? What source do the Boston Truthers give?

I explained to you that the debris that was found 8 miles away was paper and nylon.

So said the FBI and they claim they where able to do DNA on all the highjackers, uh, the problem you have with this lie is this:

That's not what it states. All the victims were identified through DNA, dental records, or other means. The hijackers were not identified on flight 93 through their DNA..I clearly posted it was through process of elimination.

The FBI says there is no evidence to link the above men to the 9/11 hijackings.
In September 2002, [FBI Director Robert Mueller] told CNN twice that there is "no legal proof to prove the identities of the suicidal hijackers."

The hijackers families were not interested in sending DNA samples to the FBI for confirmation. Why would they?

[Insight]
So, one fact is apparent. If those who hijacked the 9/11 airplanes were using stolen identities, then we don't know who they were or who they worked for. We can't. It's impossible.
Now, people who are intending to commit suicide normally don't worry about whether anyone knows their real name, and it is here that some other odd aspects of this case take on a new meaning.

These scum bags were not only committing suicide. Remember, they were committing murder in the name of Allah. If you watched the martyr video's, you will know who they worked for.

Really well you need to read this then.

F.B.I. Counsel: No Attempt Made By F.B.I. To Formally Identify 9/11 Plane Wreckage
Aidan Monaghan
03/18/08......

You showed this once again and I agree: There were not serial numbers recorded. I have shown on other threads that there have been many instances where FDR serial numbers were not recorded. Again, I ask. Why not just fake some numbers?

I have, however, you will just hand wave everything I have presented, you always do.
The entire story you have presented is false and that is a FACT.

I am not handwaving, I am explaining to you the errors that the sources made that you reference.

This does not prove anything, just more hear say from the FBI ( oh yes they NEVER lie!)

Call UA and ask them if the FBI lied about handing over the remnants of flight 93. That will prove it. Again, U2U me for the phone number in Boston.

Still no pictures?One would think there'd be at least a few,if not hundreds of documentary stills.So the verbiage is to equate ,at a thousand to one,words to picture,is that it,Cameron F*x?Because it isn't fooling anyone.That is the topic,pictures not words.There must be a reason you can't produce any.My guess is there are none.And no plane in the hole.Or bodies.Or remains of either plane or bodies.Nothing in the crater,see ya later,propagater.

reply to post by trueforger


Ignoring evidence does not make it disappear. It's obvious this is what your trying to do.

You want pictures of body parts? That will make it real?

You want more pictures of plane parts? why?

No matter what evidence you are shown. You ignore it.

Originally posted by CameronFox

Originally posted by screwedagain
If you took it, did you pass it? I'd personally love to see your evidence that wins the challenge in the video.

First of all, the challenge as Killtown set forth is ridiculous. He knows it. The photographic evidence that has been made available to the public, has already hand waved away. So, does he think we as private citizens can magically make more photographs appear? He knows we can't.

CameronFox, you mean to tell us that most of Flight 93 was buried under that crater, there was a photographer at the scene when they were digging for days, but the government never released any photos to prove a 757 was under the ground? Don't you find that a little pecular?

D.Duck

Originally posted by CameronFox

Originally posted by WonderwomanUSA
Typical disinfo site, you should pick your reading material more carefully, if you want people to listen to you.

Wow, seems you didn't click on the site. Hmmm guess what one of the sources that is used there?

Killtown himself:
killtown.911review.org...

So Killtown is Disinfo? I guess I can agree with you on that one.

The other sources at that site:

The Washington Post

A recorded Interview on the scene

9News Staff

Paul Sieger of the AP

Cleveland Free Press

It wasn't the "National Enquirer" it was an online version of a paper in Cincinnati.
LOL what’s the different? LOL

If you don't know the difference between a tabloid magazine and a respected local media outlet...then I guess I should be the on LOL-ing.

The FBI refuses to give us anything even under the freedom of information Act suits that where filed by numerous Agency. Why has our government not dug up the ground to retrieve the airplane? To say there is no conspiracy, is delusional in it self.

Why file an FOIA with the FBI? The remnants of flight 93 is with it's owners. Try contacting United Airlines to see where it is. I can get you some phone numbers if you like. The office that handles these inquiries are in Boston. Let me know via U2U if you are interested.

Says Whom? Again how can you compare that with Shanksville when we have no PROOF an airplane crashed in PA. (This is evidence) There is no evidence, only what you want to see. You are the only one in here that believes in the OS, none of us do.
CameronFox, why do you believe in the OS, and do not say you don’t because you just said “there is no conspiracy.”

Says all the evidence. You refuse to look at it. I don't care if I don't win a popularity contest on a conspiracy forum. People here come to learn and to seek the "truth." I offer the facts for people to review and do what they want with it.

you said " There is no evidence, only what you want to see." I have studied flight 93 more than any of the other conspiracies. I thought for certain that it was shot down. It took me about 4 hours to squash THAT conspiracy theory.

Because you can't see large parts of an airplane, you think that one didn't crash there? I posted to video of flight 1771 to show that during high speed crashes...there isn't much left. This is what happens.

Besides the lack of photographic evidence WonderWoman, why don't you think UA Flight 93 crashed in Shanksville?

So you believe there was no conspiracy involving the crash of Flight 93, but you believe the government is paying Killtown to spread disinformation?

D.Duck