Soldier doubts ( Obama's) eligibility, defies president's orders

Very interesting indeed. All previous cases have found that the people sueing did not have standing. It is clear to me that the courts just really do not want to touch this issue. However they are going to have a hard time ruling that this soldier does not have standing. The courts are going to either hear this case, or more likely, come up with a new reason to throw it out.

Originally posted by whitewave
If the so-called commander in chief doesn't follow the rules how can he reasonably expect the soldiers to follow them? Let Obama show that he's eligible to be commander in chief then if soldiers don't follow his orders they are subject to punishment.

What's good for the goose and all that.

I agree with you; however, your argument is weak. I offer something a little more tangible. Article 92 (the one you are all referring to indirectly) states :"violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation." The key word here is lawful. If Obama is not able to prove that he is a natural citizen, then it would be exceptionally difficult to prosecute in a general court marshal which the defendant would most assuredly pursue in this case. The prosecution is still required to prove that the defendant broke a lawful order, if Obama is not a citizen which could not be legally proven at this point in time, he would thus be rendered illegitimate as president and Biden would assume the office.

Personally I think people are just looking for ways to get Obama, but the soldier's case would be difficult to prosecute because there is no evidence which has been presented that legally prove that Obama is eligible to hold the office and the proof is the burden of the prosecution, and I just don't think that technically that could be proven at this point.

reply to post by nydsdan


Actually no birth certificate was ever produced at all. Obama presented a 'certificate of live birth' which is different for several reasons. Namely it is different because it does not have a delivering doctor’s signature or a time of birth. It is also different because at the time and place in the world a person could obtain a certificate of live birth if they were not born in the United States. It was seen as an alternative documentation mechanism for young children of immigrants. It is also important to note that you or I as ordinary citizens would not be able to use a certificate of live birth as documentation in situations that require a birth certificate. I am not saying that I know were Obama was born. However I am saying that we should follow our constitution and the burden of proof should be on the candidate to show that they are born here in the states.

Originally posted by 5thElement
This is beyond unbelievable...

Since when soldiers have rights to question orders ???

Since they swore to defend the Constitution.

Bush didn't have to show his birth certificate when he became President.

second line

How many of you have viewed the 9 high resolution scans of President Obama's birth certificate here:
www.factcheck.org...

I'm guessing the Supreme Court of the United States has looked at these scans if not the actual document and that is probably why they refuse to hear cases involving his citizenship on other ridiculous claims brought up against Obama. It's still a very conservative Supreme Court, friend of big business and the GOP, mind you.

Have a look for yourself.

Originally posted by sueloujo
The certificate he presented on his website previous to him being elected was proven to be a forgery.

Correction: the Certificate on his website was claimed to be a forgery by a two guys (Polarik & techdude) on their blogs. Neither have presented any credentials, or even given their real names.

And their 'evidence' that Obama's Certificate was forged has been debunked by a real analyst (Neal Krawetz).

Moreover, Neal Krawetz also find out that techdude was impersonating someone else.

I have heard from the person that TechDude is impersonating. TechDude is impersonating Adam Fink's background and credentials. I offer a sincere apology to Mr. Fink for associating his impersonation with TechDude.

And its still fact that the original vault certificate has never been produced.They show the amended copy and tbh that does not prove anything.

You have to get over your delusion.

The "vault certificate" has not been presented because it doesn't have to. The Certificate Obama has presented has all the information required to assert his natural born status.

The Certificate of Birth is based on his vital records (stored in vault), certified by the State. It means it has the same exact information as the vital records.

Additionally Hawaii's Department of State has confirmed that they hold Obama's original records and that his Birth Certificate (the one presented on his website) is valid.

People really need to let this go, or if you want to be taken seriously at least present some credible evidence to support your claims. But there isn't any, just hearsay and anonymous people claiming to be experts, whose 'research' has been debunked months ago.

[edit on 24-2-2009 by converge]

jus soli

14th Amendment

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

Civil Rights Act of 1866

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That all persons born in the United States and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed, are hereby declared to be citizens of the United States

www.salon.com...

www.factcheck.org...



Notice the next at the bottom:

This copy serves as prima facie evidence of the fact of birth in any court proceeding.

Of course, it's distantly possible that Obama's grandparents may have planted the announcement just in case their grandson needed to prove his U.S. citizenship in order to run for president someday. We suggest that those who choose to go down that path should first equip themselves with a high-quality tinfoil hat. The evidence is clear: Barack Obama was born in the U.S.A.

Can we come back to Earth now, please?


[edit on 2-24-2009 by Cutwolf]

reply to post by YHSBtard


He didnt win the election , he bought it.

reply to post by Grayelf2009


No he won it fair and square.

McCain had no chance. No Republican could have won.

reply to post by converge


There are many sites debunking the debunkers and I could post them but I wont because you really do believe you are right. I cant alter that so I will just say...you have not seen the copy and neither have I and we will have to disagree.

Originally posted by 5thElement
This is beyond unbelievable...

Since when soldiers have rights to question orders ???

Well, yes they can according the UCMJ, but, as i said before, unless it got changed in the last 20 years.

[edit on 24-2-2009 by Komodo]

[edit on 24-2-2009 by Komodo]

From what I've seen, there is absolutely NO proof either way in this argument. I've seen no evidence to say he isn't a natural born citizen, or any evidence to shut these arguments down. The Obama haters will keep saying the same old stuff, the Obama fanatics will make the same old counters, and in the end, nothing changes.

As for this soldier, whether they acknowledge him or not, he IS the president of the United states. That won't disappear with wishful thinking, ask anyone who spent the last 8 years (well... maybe 6) doing the exact same thing. And just like those people have been told the entire time, He IS the president of the United States. So deal with it. If they truly believe he doesn't have the right to give valid orders, then they should do all they can to fight it and if the time comes that their superiors makes a decision, accept the final answer that gets handed to them.

People really are trapped in a vicious cycle of mental stagnation and self righteous arrogance. The nation was divided during the last election. Both parties made the other sound terrible, which still resonates in the minds of the people. This man who is the President of the United States has barely been at it a month, but people are already trying to define his first term as president based on such a short period of time. I'll laugh my butt off if at the end of his first term, he keeps his promises and meets his goals. I won't be saying I told you so to the haters, but I will say "Bet you didn't see that coming". Naturally, I'll do the same thing to the fanatics. Criticize the man for what he does, not what someone else claims he will do. Judge the man by who he is and not who someone else claims him to be. We haven't seen enough of him as President to really have a clue where he'll take us in four years. The coin is flipping in the air, so why are so many intent on taking a snapshot and trying to call it long before it lands?

[edit on 24-2-2009 by DemonicAngelZero]

[edit on 24-2-2009 by DemonicAngelZero]

Come on you people!

You never did this when Bush was in office.

You may not like the guy but to think that he isn't American? I don't think that's patriotic... please. He seems American to me.

I wish people would realize that they can lie to themselves but the moment they start trying to push that lie off as truth it will become evident.

You “know” that President Obama is an American. You know who his mother is. She is an American period. That makes him an American period.

This thing has been beaten to death all the way to the Supreme Court. If they couldn't make it stick when everything was at stake then they can't make it stick now.

The only thing this bullcrap is good for is to give a bunch of closeted racist and bigoted people the excuse they need for criticizing and not supporting President Obama.

They know that they will have to deal with the lie if they come clean and say that they just don't like the idea of a Black man as President because that would expose them for what they really are.

If you don't like the man than be honest with yourself even if can't be with others and just admit it and leave it alone.

Weak attempts to justify your inability to support the man by giving credibility to any crazy idea or notion that someone espouses makes you look stupid or makes you look like an advocate.

You don’t have to stay in the closet and you don’t have to feign acceptance of any group of people that you feel is not “good” enough to be “your” President.

I have news for a whole lot of you people out there that may not have thought this whole thing through.

We have people that have been born right here in America of foreign born parents and guess what?

They are Americans born right here in the good old USA. So your next president could be Mexican, Israeli, Pakistani, Afghani, or …. go ahead pick one.

And you people call yourself patriots, true Americans. You are willing to take up the call against President Obama behind this crap but you don’t have the guts to go after the real enemy.

You didn’t have the guts to fight the destruction of our constitution. You didn’t have the guts to stop Bush from raiding the country before he left the building and you didn’t have the guts to make Cheney and Rumsfeld accountable.

You didn’t have the guts to demand an accounting of all the billions of dollars stolen for a war that killed our children so the elite could hold on to the money and power.

You didn’t have the guts to demand an explanation for the need for a Vatican city sized resort for the powerful and the elite in New Babylon that they so in your face named the “green zone”.

But now suddenly you are so patriotic and so pro constitution and America.

Well all you good Americans and patriots I hope that when you finish going after President Obama on this that you have enough spit and vinegar to go after something that will really make a difference.

Originally posted by sueloujo
There are many sites debunking the debunkers and I could post them but I wont because you really do believe you are right. I cant alter that so I will just say...you have not seen the copy and neither have I and we will have to disagree.

If you say you have evidence, then post it and I will look at it. It doesn't matter what I believe in if the evidence holds up.

I have seen a copy. And if you've seen the one he posted, you have seen it too.

What you haven't seen, nor did I, is his vital records. But you aren't supposed to see those anyway, they are sealed in the State's vault, and are only verified and handled by authorized people of the Department of Health.

When you ask the State for a certificate, they will issue one, like the one Obama has presented, based on the vital records. You can't have different information on the vital records and on the certificates.

[edit on 24-2-2009 by converge]

Even if he wasnt a natural born citizen do you really think it would be difficult for the PTB to make a forgery that would pass your oh its photoshop tests. The fact they havent bothered just to shut you all up suggests in itself there is nothing to the story.

I'm sure that if Obama wasn't a natural born citizen lawyers would be all over him right now.

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT HE IS NOT AN AMERICAN CITIZEN. There may be speculation but there is NOT PROOF of that.

The idea that Obama isn't American is as ridiculous as the one that Bush was a reptillian and alien. COME ON PEOPLE. STOP LYING. Be realistic here.

From what I've seen, there is absolutely NO proof either way in this argument. I've seen no evidence to say he isn't a natural born citizen, or any evidence to shut these arguments down. The Obama haters will keep saying the same old stuff, the Obama fanatics will make the same old counters, and in the end, nothing changes.

No, the two camps of people here are "extreme conspiracy theory Obama haters" and "rational people."

You don't need to be an Obama fanatic to see the ridiculousness of this discussion.

Originally posted by kettlebellysmith
reply to post by 5thElement

 

Actually, a soldier not only has the right, but an obligation, to question any order he or she considers to be illegal. Thus, if Obama is not a citizen, but a usurper, then his orders would be illegal. This soldier will, however, face court-martial, and will have to PROVE those orders are illegal.
Odds of proving it? zero to none, but I wish him luck.

Of course he can choose to do so, but he will inevitably face court marshal and he also needs to prove it was UNLAWFUL order.

As we already all know, republican conservative right wing attack campaign machine with all of their power and money did not succeed in proving ANYTHING whatsoever when it comes to Obama's birth certificate...

Guy is just a poor victim of conspiracy theories and he will unfortunately pay for that