Soldier doubts ( Obama's) eligibility, defies president's orders

Wasn't the birth certificate shown already? Why the hell does it need to be shown anyway, the guy's from Hawaii, we didn't have this # with Bush when he #ed everything up.

Yeah, we can obey a man who lied on EVERYTHING, laughed about it and the deaths, admitted he lied, who neglected his responsiblities here at home and said he didn't care about the Constitutionor the economy, BUT when you have a man who has a middle name that is not common, OH HOLY #, LOOK OUT!

God, and people wonder why we're looked at as a bunch of fools.

Originally posted by reasoner

Obama has presented his birth certificate and Hawaii has certified that it's valid

No he hasn't, he provided a photoshopped COLB and all the state health dept in Hawaii did was confirm he has one on file there. It doesn't mean he was born there.

This has been sufficient for the John McCain and the Supreme Court

Ya think John McCain would have attacked Obama for this when HE was in the same boat being born outside of the country???

NOPE especially when McCain owed Obama for his getting past the legal ramifications by Obama writing a bit of fast and loose legislation.

Clever move by the Messiah

and the US Congress, none of whom have any question on the matter. But maybe all of them are in on the coverup.

Perhaps a coverup would be necessary if they all had a secret to keep but it's pretty easy when NONE OF THEM HAVE SEEN IT EITHER!

The number of people who have signed on to "force the issue" is smaller than the number of people in the Flat Earth Society. Sore losers inventing their own reality.

I'm sorry, flat earth society? what is that, and what does it have to do with this?

Is this soldier more expert in detecting forgeries than any of these authorities?

I'm sorry what authorities have you talked to ? who are they? what are you talking about? If it is the COLB? Anyone with a mediocre knowledge of computer rendered imaging knows in five minutes that crap he had on the web is BUNK.

Think this out. Suppose we say that every soldier has the right to disobey orders until they personally see a copy of the president's birth certificate and personally agree that it as valid; until then every solider has a right to freely disobey orders from their superiors all the way up to the President. Not just this president of course; any president.

Taking this from the sublime to the ridiculous doesn't make the request any less valid.

Great idea! I guess every army solider or national guardsman who doesn't want to be shipped out could likewise refuse the orders, until and unless Obama's birth certificate is presented to him, and he personally believes it to be true and not a fake. This might end the war even sooner than the Iraqi government and the Obama administration want.

Hey if that is what it would take, but I don't think it would, you see, he won't let ANYONE see it and tell us what it says about where he was born. Fukino was asked but she wouldn't answer that question.

Originally posted by Aermacchi
Fair enough, Ill ask what you think was the reason behind Obama writing that non binding legislation making McCain a NBC was about?

Well, the Senate Resolution didn't make McCain a natural born citizen, it simply stated what was the Senate's opinion on Sen. McCain's status.

Even though the Resolution in itself doesn't have any legal value, it would serve to show intent, what Congress thinks.

Basically if there was a dispute in a Court, the Judge(s) could use it as a reference to what was the legislature's opinion on Sen. McCain.

My personal opinion is that, from a strict interpretation of the Constitution and relevant Supreme Court cases, Sen. McCain would not qualify as a natural born citizen. However, I would not oppose him serving as President if he had won.

Despite not agreeing with many of his policies, I have no doubt in my mind that John McCain only has the best interests of the United States at heart, and would deserve to serve the country at its highest capacity.

I think that Senate Resolution reflects my opinion: the people in Congress understood that because of a technicality (non-existing legislation regulating births in the Canal Zone in 1936), it could pose some problems to Sen. McCain and wanted to explicitly explain where they stood on that issue.


You have to ask yourself this though: if Congress felt they needed to express their opinion on Sen. McCain's status, why do you think they didn't do the same for Sen. Obama? Perhaps because they don't dispute his status.

Originally posted by Darky6K

Yeah, we can obey a man who lied on EVERYTHING, laughed about it

Hence the reason we don't like having another

he lied, who neglected his responsiblities here at home and said he didn't care about the Constitutionor the economy,

And YOU think adding a trillion more on top of this so that the national endowment for the arts and crap like that is caring about the economy??

BUT when you have a man who has a middle name that is not common, OH HOLY #, LOOK OUT!

That is about the ONLY thing we DO know about this guy.

Originally posted by converge

Originally posted by Aermacchi
Fair enough, Ill ask what you think was the reason behind Obama writing that non binding legislation making McCain a NBC was about?

Well, the Senate Resolution didn't make McCain a natural born citizen, it simply stated what was the Senate's opinion on Sen. McCain's status.

Even though the Resolution in itself doesn't have any legal value, it would serve to show intent, what Congress thinks.

Basically if there was a dispute in a Court, the Judge(s) could use it as a reference to what was the legislature's opinion on Sen. McCain.

My personal opinion is that, from a strict interpretation of the Constitution and relevant Supreme Court cases, Sen. McCain would not qualify as a natural born citizen. However, I would not oppose him serving as President if he had won.

Despite not agreeing with many of his policies, I have no doubt in my mind that John McCain only has the best interests of the United States at heart, and would deserve to serve the country at its highest capacity.

I think that Senate Resolution reflects my opinion: the people in Congress understood that because of a technicality (non-existing legislation regulating births in the Canal Zone in 1936), it could pose some problems to Sen. McCain and wanted to explicitly explain where they stood on that issue.


You have to ask yourself this though: if Congress felt they needed to express their opinion on Sen. McCain's status, why do you think they didn't do the same for Sen. Obama? Perhaps because they don't dispute his status.

I totally agree with all you said in this well written post you have offered, thanks for taking the time. The part about Obama I am not sure they didn't add him to it Ill see if i can find the language. No I doubt a Democratic controlled house and senate would have a problem with Obama even if he was a soviet defector

Originally posted by Aermacchi
No he hasn't, he provided a photoshopped COLB and all the state health dept in Hawaii did was confirm he has one on file there. It doesn't mean he was born there.

Aermacchi,
I'm sorry but that is a lie. Hawaiian officials confirmed that the certificate Obama has is valid.

Yes, there were probably photoshopped copies of Obama's certificate, but even WND acknowledged and explained this.

A separate WND investigation into Obama's birth certificate utilizing forgery experts also found the document to be authentic. The investigation also revealed methods used by some of the bloggers to determine the document was fake involved forgeries, in that a few bloggers added text and images to the certificate scan that weren't originally there.

source

reply to post by Aermacchi


Let me address something now for everyone's consideration:

Yes, the Constitution says that for a person to hold office she must be eligible but the Constitution does not specify how eligibility is established.

Moreover, no US law specifies how the determination of eligibility is done either.

Even if a Court were to accept a lawsuit, they can't point to any law saying Congress didn't do its job. Even the Supreme Court.

The Supreme Court can't say what Congress should legislate or how, only if its decisions and laws are in conformity with the Constitution and current US law.

Since Congress, the legislature, approved Barack Obama eligibility is no longer a issue.


Listen I understand the Constitutional worries, but we have to focus on concrete and objective issues. If we spend all our time discussing what we believe or don't believe, the discussion won't productively go anywhere.

Originally posted by converge

Originally posted by Aermacchi
No he hasn't, he provided a photoshopped COLB and all the state health dept in Hawaii did was confirm he has one on file there. It doesn't mean he was born there.

Aermacchi,
I'm sorry but that is a lie. Hawaiian officials confirmed that the certificate Obama has is valid.

Yes, there were probably photoshopped copies of Obama's certificate, but even WND acknowledged and explained this.

A separate WND investigation into Obama's birth certificate utilizing forgery experts also found the document to be authentic. The investigation also revealed methods used by some of the bloggers to determine the document was fake involved forgeries, in that a few bloggers added text and images to the certificate scan that weren't originally there.

source

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear or you haven't seen my other posts. I have seen just as many saying the stuff you gave as expert testimony is in fact NOT correct also. Unfortunately, this is what the internet has become. One HUGE glut of tailor made disinformation.

This is why I think using the internet for things like THIS is not very smart because this is what usually happens. What we all wanted was a Federal Court Judge or hell even Madam Speaker, to hold the documet vaulted BC and say who the doctor was if there was one, what Hospital if there is one and what country he was born. The reason I don't think people in congress have a problem like McCain did is because so far Obama didn't offer his where McCain did making it absolutley Necessary he had that opinion written by Obama and Hillary

Originally posted by converge

Let me address something now for everyone's consideration:

Yes, the Constitution says that for a person to hold office she must be eligible but the Constitution does not specify how eligibility is established.

Moreover, no US law specifies how the determination of eligibility is done either.

The constitution doesn't you're right but the Constitution doesn't specify how we should ID people so we don't sell cigarettes to minors either. The United States started creating and adopting accepted methods of record keeping to assist in a person establishing him or herself as an American. That each states Health Dept may keep a record or hold records of Birth that require a stamp and meet with various states compliance that if anyone were to call a place of birth in question whether it be by Drivers License or COLB, both can be frauds and many are these days, The State can authorize with the Person in questions's permission, a vaulted BC, to release a Record of that information and THAT is what we are asking for.

Even if a Court were to accept a lawsuit, they can't point to any law saying Congress didn't do its job. Even the Supreme Court.

I am not sure this would fall on the Congress but on the man Obama himself for it is incumbent on him to make sure he is qualified for this Job.

I believe the law is predicated on a constitutionally backed mandate and their is foundation for negligence merely by making each one of them admit it, I say ASK them, has anyone ever REALLY seen this mans Vaulted BC. I think their is plenty of clues to establish motive for supressing such a document from ever seeing the light of day and Obama has done everything by hook or crook to do just that.

The Supreme Court can't say what Congress should legislate or how, only if its decisions and laws are in conformity with the Constitution and current US law.

Since Congress, the legislature, approved Barack Obama eligibility is no longer a issue.

No it IS an issue and until he does this small gesture, I will feel more resentment and feel more suspicious more antagonistic of him and about him. It is really that simple and it is because it is SO simple a thing for him to do I cannot fathom a reason he wouldn't do this for Americans he hasn't quite won over and now, probably never will.

It makes No sense to me at all, Unless,,

he wasn't born here






[edit on 2-3-2009 by Aermacchi]

Originally posted by Aermacchi
I have seen just as many saying the stuff you gave as expert testimony is in fact NOT correct also.

I'm not claiming WND is an expert, or had experts look at the copy that was on the website(s). I'm not relying on any self-proclaimed experts anyway, I'm going by what the people who have personally inspected the certificate, and Hawaiian officials have stated.

To verify we did have the correct document, we contacted the Hawaii Department of Health, which maintains such records.

"It's a valid Hawaii state birth certificate," spokesman Janice Okubo said after we e-mailed her our copy [of Obama's certificate]. source source

There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate. State law (Hawai‘i Revised Statutes §338-18) prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record.

Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures. source

I understand that Chiyome Fukino's (Department of Health's Director) statement might seem vague and confusing but there is a reason for that: she cannot disclose any information that is on Obama's, or anyone's, records. Even if it would help Obama.

Granted that if it said something other than Honolulu on his original records she couldn't say either, but she practically says he was born in Honolulu if you read her words carefully.

She says his original birth certificate is on record in accordance with state policies and procedures. If it said something other than Honolulu on his certificate, they couldn't issue him a certificate saying that he was born there.

Yes there is a statute that would allow registration of foreign born babies in Hawaii, but that statute was only enacted in 1982 and Obama was registered, according to the certificate, on August 8 1961.

The certificate Obama has provided is stamped by Alvin Onaka (the registrar of vital statistics). Alvin Onaka is certifying that what's in that paper matches what is on the state's records. That's why it's called a certificate (it's certified information).

If the information on his certificate didn't match, it would not be in accordance with state policies and procedures.

[edit on 2-3-2009 by converge]

Originally posted by Aermacchi
What we all wanted was a Federal Court Judge or hell even Madam Speaker, to hold the documet vaulted BC and say who the doctor was if there was one, what Hospital if there is one and what country he was born.

LOL, unfortunately we all know that conspiracy theories are not stopped that easily.....

Someone, somewhere, somehow would find out that there is some kind of corrupted personnel hospital event that would be a "proof" of illegibility of the document, that doctor himself had something on him, like being drunk at work or received bribes few times, you know, the usual suspect who can perpetuate conspiracy theory even further

Why he does not do it?

Maybe, just maybe, DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS is part of his policy in treating the rumors, conspiracy theories and lies

Originally posted by 5thElement


LOL, unfortunately we all know that conspiracy theories are not stopped that easily.....

Someone, somewhere, somehow would find out that there is some kind of corrupted personnel hospital event that would be a "proof" of illegibility of the document, that doctor himself had something on him, like being drunk at work or received bribes few times, you know, the usual suspect who can perpetuate conspiracy theory even further

Why he does not do it?

Maybe, just maybe, DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS is part of his policy in treating the rumors, conspiracy theories and lies

Ha ha yeah I know what you mean, like perhaps a Hospital employee or Doctor that had done the delivery of young Baby Barack or the nurses there that day or night or perhaps the log for the shift that day at said Hospital. But ya know what??

No one has come fourth and you would THINK someone would,,

But that kinda thing would ONLY happen if there WAS such a Doctor or Nurse Or Log Or Hospital or shift crew that knew but if you want that kind of thing, you ain't gonna find it here.

Not in the United States and do you know why?


Yeah,, uh huh

Originally posted by converge

I understand that Chiyome Fukino's (Department of Health's Director) statement might seem vague and confusing but there is a reason for that: she cannot disclose any information that is on Obama's, or anyone's, records. Even if it would help Obama.

Yes yes I have heard all this before and NO NO I don't buy it and why the hell should I when the question wasn't whether or not he had a Birth Certificate. We wanted to know what it said where he was BORN for the umpteenth time! Why is this so hard to grasp?

Yes I understand the excuse fukino gave for using confusing vague language but the question was NOT vague and it was the only one that required an answer and all Obama had to do is (once again ill say this) give us the same courtesy McCain did and man up and tell us what it says about who the doctor was, what hospital it was and what country it was.

Granted that if it said something other than Honolulu on his original records she couldn't say either, but she practically says he was born in Honolulu if you read her words carefully

.

I know exactly what it says and she wasn't being cryptic in my opinion, she was just affirming he had a valid birth certificate on file there. she wouldn't even admit if what was on the colb was also on the vaulted when asked that question among others she refused.

She says his original birth certificate is on record in accordance with state policies and procedures. If it said something other than Honolulu on his certificate, they couldn't issue him a certificate saying that he was born there.

If you are talking about the colb I just addressed that and she refused that question and the those asking where it said he was born.

Yes there is a statute that would allow registration of foreign born babies in Hawaii, but that statute was only enacted in 1982 and Obama was registered, according to the certificate, on August 8 1961.

No this is wrong. This law was enacted to to regulate this problem because IT WAS a problem going back as far as 1961 and their has been a plethora of others born else where who have come fourth to show they had done it too!


Factcheck is lieing they say right on the page they have seen Obama's Birth Certificate well NO they haven't. They have seen a COLB but again THAT ISN'T WHAT WE ASKED FOR!

The certificate Obama has provided is stamped by Alvin Onaka (the registrar of vital statistics). Alvin Onaka is certifying that what's in that paper matches what is on the state's records. That's why it's called a certificate (it's certified information).

So another words their was no doctor no hospital? I know what a rubber stamp look like and alvin wasn't there

If the information on his certificate didn't match, it would not be in accordance with state policies and procedures.



The reason we Keep asking for the genuine article converge,

IS BECAUSE IT IS,, THE GENUINE ARTICLE!

Can you wrap youy mind around that ???





[edit on 2-3-2009 by Aermacchi]

Originally posted by Aermacchi
Yes yes I have heard all this before and NO NO I don't buy it and why the hell should I when the question wasn't whether or not he had a Birth Certificate. We wanted to know what it said where he was BORN for the umpteenth time! Why is this so hard to grasp?

She confirmed that they had Obama's original records because that confirms the validity of the certificate he has provided.

I'm sorry you don't understand that.

she wouldn't even admit if what was on the colb was also on the vaulted when asked that question among others she refused.

It would be against the law for her to reveal that information. Giving that statement was already an exception, and yet it hasn't satisfied you people. It has made it worse, in fact.

No this is wrong. This law was enacted to to regulate this problem because IT WAS a problem going back as far as 1961 and their has been a plethora of others born else where who have come fourth to show they had done it too!

From your statement it seems to me that you don't understand what's in the statute.

What is your basis for this?

[edit on 2-3-2009 by Aermacchi]

Originally posted by converge


She confirmed that they had Obama's original records because that confirms the validity of the certificate he has provided.

Look Converge you are just starting to piss me off now. Listen I was born at night but it wasn't last freakin night and I sure as hell didn't come down on the last drop of rain. All she did was confirm what we already knew! That he had a birth certificate and she said NOTHING absolutely NOTHING about what it would or wouldn't confirm in regard to the COLB and I am sorry you are reading more into what she said than what she did say.

.

It would be against the law for her to reveal that information. Giving that statement was already an exception, and yet it hasn't satisfied you people. It has made it worse, in fact

Look if Obama can have McCain provide one for us HE can do the same and not be held to some messiah standard so he can hide his BS Birth Place for 100 th time! The ONLY and mean ONLY thing we are asking for is to see the Genuine article and if he can't do that, if he is afraid that showing us he was born in Hawaii is somehow differnt by showing the same thing on another document then fine It is his right and it is mine to do everything and i mean erverything to disparage and malign him

From your statement it seems to me that you don't understand what's in the statute.

What is your basis for this?!

Umm so tell me what is that law book goign to jump out of the drawer and stop someone from commiting an act of fraud? what laws are for is to let those who are law obiding know where the line is drawn.

You seem to think this wasn't done in 1961 AND i'M SAYING YOU'RE REAL NAIVE!







[edit on 2-3-2009 by Aermacchi]

Originally posted by Aermacchi
Look Converge you are just starting to piss me off now.

Again, I regret that your failure to understand Fukino's statement, or the implications of it, are pissing you off.

Umm so tell me what is that law book goign to jump out of the drawer and stop someone from commiting an act of fraud? what laws are for is to let those who are law obiding know where the line is drawn.

You seem to think this wasn't done in 1961 AND i'M SAYING YOU'RE REAL NAIVE!

Then we have to throw the §338-17.8 statute argument out of the window, because the argument of a law enacted in 1982 to justify something done in 1961 doesn't make sense.

So let's accept the theory that what was done, it was done in 1961.

Here's the problem with that theory: the Health Department doesn't register any children, born locally or foreign, without the certificate you get from the Hospital.

Don't take my word for it, this is what Hawaii's statutes say regarding this:

§338-5 Compulsory registration of births. Within the time prescribed by the department of health, a certificate of every birth shall be substantially completed and filed with the local agent of the department in the district in which the birth occurred, by the administrator or designated representative of the birthing facility, or physician, or midwife, or other legally authorized person in attendance at the birth; or if not so attended, by one of the parents.
The birth facility shall make available to the department appropriate medical records for the purpose of monitoring compliance with the provisions of this chapter. source

Since in 1961 they couldn't have used a foreign certificate to register Obama (remember §338-17.8 wasn't law yet), they had to have used an Hawaiian Hospital issued one.

The only way to get an Hawaiian issued one is to... you guessed it: give birth at a Hawaiian Hospital.

Unless you're suggesting they brought Obama as a newborn (1-3 days old - his registration date is August 8 1961) from Kenya to Hawaii, slipped into a Hospital, somehow faked a birth and tricked a Doctor or some other authorized agent into signing a certificate attesting to a live birth.

And even if we were to indulge in such a far fetched theory, his original records (yes the ones in the vault) would obviously say born in Honolulu and not Kenya.


[edit on 3-3-2009 by converge]

Originally posted by DimensionalDetective
...admittedly from WND, which isn't the greatest source...

Then why even post it? That's not unlike telling a story and then disclaiming it saying "...admittedly it comes from a known liar but...".

[edit on 3-3-2009 by Lilitu]

Originally posted by converge
Again, I regret that your failure to understand Fukino's statement, or the implications of it, are pissing you off.

No,, I'm afraid it is YOU who is doing that consierge!
My claim would be that Obama was not actually born in Hawaii, and that his 'original' Birth Certificate would show that.

The birth certificate Obama has produced is official, re-issued by the state of Hawaii. But it is not the original.

Hawaii at the time would issue a birth certificate to a child if the parents had residence in Hawaii in the past year, no matter where the child was born.

the original may show place of birth as someplace not in the US, while the re-issue does not. So he would not be a 'natural' born citizen, and may have dual citizenship with the country wherever you believe he was born.

Obama has not granted permission for Hawaii to disclose his original birth certificate, in fact he is fighting it tooth and nail.



FACT - HAWAII DOES ALLOW FOREIGN BORN CHILDREN TO HAVE THEIR BIRTHS REGISTERED IN THE STATE AND HAWAII WOULD PROVIDE A CERTIFICATION OF LIVE BIRTH IN SUCH CASES. HAWAII HAS NOT STATED THAT OBAMA WAS BORN IN HAWAII, ONLY THAT HIS ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS WERE FILED IN ACCORDANCE WITH HAWAII GUIDELINES. WHY DIDN'T THEY SAY HE WAS BORN THERE?

FACT - OBAMA WAS BORN UNDER DUAL CITIZENSHIP AS STATED ON HIS OWN WEBSITE

What makes you think you are right?

because MOST of you in the Obamaborg collective think Factcheck.org, is the final arbiter of truth in the universe, said so?

If so, then am I to believe the same state YOU say makes a COLB good enough to become President of the UNITED STATES, is the same you say the burden of proof needed to demonstrate one is eligible to be Commander in Chief should be at least as high as, oh, say, the level to be eligible for Hawaiian homestead status?? Is that what you are telling me?? That the state of Hawaii which does NOT accept a COLB.

WE HAD A CANDIDATES WITH A GREEN CARDS ON THE BALLOTS IN FIVE STATES IN THIS LAST CAMPAIGN.


Under Hawaiian law, it is possible (both legally and illegally) for a person to have been born out of state, yet have a birth certificate on file in the Department of Health.

A. From Hawaii's official Department of Health, Vital Records webpage: "Amended certificates of birth may be prepared and filed with the Department of Health, as provided by law, for 1) a person born in Hawaii who already has a birth certificate filed with the Department of Health or 2) a person born in a foreign country" (applies to adopted children).


B. A parent may register an in-state birth in lieu of certification by a hospital of birth under HRS 338-5.


C. Hawaiian law expressly provides for registration of out-of-state births under HRS 338-17.8. A foreign birth presumably would have been recorded by the American consular of the country of birth, and presumably that would be reflected on the Hawaiian birth certificate.


D. Hawaiian law, however, expressly acknowledges that its system is subject to error. See, for example, HRS 338-17.


E. Hawaiian law expressly provides for verification in lieu of certified copy of a birth certificate under HRS 338-14.3.


F. the Hawaii Department of Home Lands does not accept a certified copy of a birth certificate as conclusive evidence for its homestead program. From its web site: "In order to process your application, DHHL utilizes information that is found only on the original Certificate of Live Birth, which is either black or green. This is a more complete record of your birth than the Certification of Live Birth (a computer-generated printout). Submitting the original Certificate of Live Birth will save you time and money since the computer-generated Certification requires additional verification by DHHL."

Sorry Converge,, Contrary to what you may have read, NO document made available to the public, nor any statement by Hawaiian officials, evidences conclusively that Obama was born in Hawaii and how you can imply I am not understanding this is just adding fuel to the implication I made about you eariler that your insults regardless of how candied up you try to make them, when it is over something you cannot be specific about, I see it for what it is. Show me converge, please share with us WHAT PART OF FUKINO'S STATEMENTS YOU THINK I DO NOT UNDERSTAND!


Here Is what I DO Understand!

A. Associated Press reported about a statement of Hawaii Health Department Director Dr. Fukino, "State declares Obama birth certificate genuine."


B. That October 31, 2008 statement says that Dr. Fukino "has personally seen and verified that the Hawai'i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama's original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures."

That statement does not, however, verify, that Obama was born in Hawaii, moreover, under Hawaiian policies and procedures it is quite possible that Hawaii may have a birth record of a person not born in Hawaii.

Unlikely? perhaps.

Impossible? NOPE.

The document that the Obama campaign released to the public is a certified copy of Obama's birth record, which is not the best evidence and since you want to keep using Hawaiian laws to prove your point, under Hawaiian law, the original vault copy is the better evidence. Presumably, the vault record would show whether his birth was registered by a hospital in Hawaii.

Many people have taken great pains to hide who they are and more have gone to extremes to steal and / or create identities in this country to gain access to the many benefits of United States citizenship. Given the structure of the Hawaiian law, the fact that a parent may register a birth, albeit true, are limited, HOWEVER, their is inherent potential for human error within the system.

That it is possible a parent of a child born out of state could have registered that birth to either gain the benefits of U.S. citizenship, or simply to avoid bureaucratic hassles at that time or later in the child's life. The fact is their were numerous cases of this back in the 60's ESPECIALLY in Hawaii. You can cite all that legislation all you want but one day working at a bar as a bouncer will tell you just how wrong you are when you see how many young girls with fake ID's attempt to get in. It isn't their ID that gives them away as they are at least as good as that fraud COLB Obama passed off as legit. It is NOT legitimate and your opinion using the logic that your references have impeccable credibility only went as far as your first assault on mine as being incredulous.




We don't know whether the standards of registration by the Department of Health were more or less stringent in 1961 (the year of Obama's birth) than they are today. I CAN tell you however, that in a post 911 world, we know that there have been many many instances of fraudulent registrations of foreign births as American births inn this country and the numbers shocked authorities. For example:


In 2004 New Jersey vital statistics employees were scamming to issue birth certificates to foreign-born individuals as part of the investigation, federal agents executed a search warrant of the HCOVS on Feb. 18, 2004, which resulted in the seizure of hundreds of suspect Certificates of Live Birth which falsely indicated that the named individuals were born in Jersey City, when in fact, they were born outside the United States.

The COLB is THEE most easily counterfeited, most often used form of ID to gather additional forms of ID. YOu continue to assume fukino was talking about the COLB when she was NOT. You continue to claim Fukino was substantiating via some secret code language that the Vaulted BC says he was born in Hawaii when that is absurd and I take it as a personal affront you would insult our intelligence with that assertion, it is THAT Ridiculous.


It has been reported and proven a FACT:

1) that the Kenyan government has sealed Obama's records.

2) Obama has refused to disclose the vault copy of his Hawaiian birth certificate.

3) This raises the question whether he himself has established that he is eligible to be President.

4) Inspite of all the ObamaBorg Collective arguing what they think the FBI CIA or Republicans would have done to check this out, it was that exact line of presumptuous logic that NO ONE EVER DID!

5) To date, no state or federal election official, nor any government authority, has verified that he ever established conclusively that he meets the eligibility standard under the Constitution of the United States of America. NONE, NOTTA, ZIP! ZILCH! ipso Facto!

If the burden of proof were on him, perhaps as it should be for the highest office of any individual in America, the over 47 lawsuits challenging his eligibility would be unnecessary.


Had he disclosed his vault copy in the Berg v. Obama lawsuit (which was the first lawsuit filed on the question of his eligibility to be President), and it was established he was born in Hawaii, that would have constituted res judicata, and acted to stop other similar lawsuits being filed. Without res judicata (meaning, the matter is adjudged and settled conclusively) he or government officials will need to defend other lawsuits, and valuable court resources will be expended. Strategically from a legal standpoint, therefore, his refusal to disclose doesn't make sense. Weighing factors such as costs, resources and complexity of disclosing versus not disclosing, he must have reason of considerable downside in disclosing, or upside in not disclosing. There may be other reasons, but one could speculate that he hasn't disclosed because:


A) He was not born in Hawaii, and may not be eligible to be President;

B) He was born in Hawaii, but facts that may be on his vault copy birth certificate are inconsistent with his books


C) He was born in Hawaii, and his refusal to provide the best evidence that he is a natural born citizen is a means by which to draw criticism of him in order to make him appear to be a "victim." This would embolden and enrage the collective in the ObamaBorg which is a tactic he has used many times and taken straight from his favorite author, Communist Saul Alinsky. This is what Obamaborg dis-informationalists like 1rish Mick and Afrosamurai make apparently do for a living.


while this tactic may energize his supporters, it would convince others outside of the "fringe" that maybe their is more to this and they are joining us.


The question not being asked by the holders of power, who dismiss this as a rightwing conspiracy, is what's the downside of disclosing?


Our claim to see his vaulted BC is a legtimate one NOT because we are fringe or right wing, republican or dissed hillary democrats, but because, Barack Obama,,

has turned it into one.








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[edit on 3-3-2009 by Aermacchi]

reply to post by Aermacchi


What's the source for this copy & paste? Or is this your text?

Thank you.