Please help me to understand my bitterness towards Judaism.

reply to post by dunwichwitch


I don't know if you believe in the fact that we all have other selves and other lives "past lives" but this is probably where these feelings are stemming from. It could be many things you could have been a part of the german army or a jewish person yourself during that time. one of your other selves could be married to a jewish person and in an unbalanced relationship. the list could go on, but you see where i'm headed with this.....it's all connected without question.

reply to post by dunwichwitch


He says "EXPAND"

So it is just a different meaning of "chosen"...


edit: To choose s.o. for a task!!! Do you mean, the Jews are chosen for a specific task? What task? Establish gods throne on earth???

Or maybe (just guessing, no offense) the antichrists throne??

[edit on 10-2-2009 by Wachstum]

reply to post by azurite



Ya know... as bad as this sounds.... I KNOW we have had other lives before... and I believe in karma... and for some reason, every once in a while I get this feeling that I might have been either Hitler or someone very close to Hitler in one of my previous lives. Possibly just a high ranking German officer..... because the "Jew Bashing" has risen out of me very furiously on occasion. I feel very guilty when it happens, because I know SO much better than that. Most of the time, I feel alligned with the Buddhist philosophy of bringing peace to all sentient beings. I guess if I HAD to choose a religion, I would call myself a Buddhist.

Which makes this all the more awkward to be experiencing...

Somebody owes me a bottle of Glenspey for this. Chosen means that we were tagged to be responsible. For what you may ask? Everything. SERIOUSLY. A baby girraffe falls down in Africa and breaks a leg, our fault. Alien KRLLLL has indigestion, our fault, but for good things too. But most importantly, if we mess up, we, as a people are held responsible. We believe and accept that(Orthodox). That's what Chosen People means, were chosen to be supremely responsible for our actions, and even the actions of others. Even if it means bearing the punishment of others.

reply to post by dashen



hahaha Very well done.

An absolutely plausible and religious coherent explanation! And very wise, actually...

But, you know, Livni and the others will have LOTS to suffer...

And the ordinary guy in Jerusalem? Having nice income, thanks to the protectionism of USA. Yeah, the system may be not that fair

reply to post by dunwichwitch


I don't think they are inhospitable to debate- they will freely debate (in fact we had many debates in the student union on Israel- Palestine back when I was studying).

Its just that they refuse to debate within their own institutions (ie their houses or synagogues)... which is fair enough really.

If its a debate on political issues that you want, then you must meet them in a neutral venue, not their place of worship.

If you want to learn more about their background etc then they are more than hospitable.

Edit to add : Btw you were not Hitler. They way reincarnation works is to balance your soul's experience. Hitler is undoubtedly reincarnated as a Jew... it will help his soul understand better the actions of his previous life, and cease the anger towards Jews.

[edit on 10-2-2009 by 44soulslayer]

reply to post by dunwichwitch


With this logic, many people around the world could be reincarnations of damn sick Hitler

Not only that: He is probably reincarnated as a stone... and not a nice stone

Originally posted by Wachstum
reply to post by dunwichwitch

 

He says "EXPAND"

So it is just a different meaning of "chosen"...


edit: To choose s.o. for a task!!! Do you mean, the Jews are chosen for a specific task? What task? Establish gods throne on earth???

Or maybe (just guessing, no offense) the antichrists throne??

[edit on 10-2-2009 by Wachstum]

I've always wondered, ya know? Even before my real anger towards the ideology of Judaism became noticeable after Israel's recent flare ups againts the Palestinians, I had been postulating whether the very taboo nature of questioning Judaism as an ideology is just a smokescreen. I have true faith that Jews are no better or worse than any other "group" of peoples or races on this planet. It is the ideology, what lies behind it's history, what lies behind the history of anger towards the ideology group, and what the true motivations of the Holocaust and the establishment of Israel are/were that should be questioned.... not the validity of the humanity of people who call themselves Jewish.

That being said... there is another thread in the conspiracy in religion board that is claiming that the "Jewish Race" and "it's" place in society is the prevailing product of man-made natural selections.... and that "chosen by god" means that "The Jewish Race" is the pinnacle of man's evolution.

I dunno.... but I can think of a few different "groups" which have been more persecuted than the "Jewish race".

This is why it is so hard for me to buy into the whole concept of Judaism. Is the fact that they are "Chosen" REALLY a big factor in the Judaic religion? Why do they refer to non-Jewish people as "gentiles"? Why a religion of such absolute "us and them"-isms?

This is my gripe. I think these are fair questions... and I wanna understand, and I wanna know whether my questions are completely stupid and unfounded, or whether they have reasonable answers.

Am I being a bigot by asking these things? I'm trying to be as neutral and logical as possible when asking them.

Originally posted by dashen
Somebody owes me a bottle of Glenspey for this. Chosen means that we were tagged to be responsible. For what you may ask? Everything. SERIOUSLY. A baby girraffe falls down in Africa and breaks a leg, our fault. Alien KRLLLL has indigestion, our fault, but for good things too. But most importantly, if we mess up, we, as a people are held responsible. We believe and accept that(Orthodox). That's what Chosen People means, were chosen to be supremely responsible for our actions, and even the actions of others. Even if it means bearing the punishment of others.

Welll shouldn't all people bear that responsibility?

That philosophy is VERY VERY Eastern, my friend. I dig it... but it should apply to all life intelligent enough to bear the concept of responsibility.

reply to post by 44soulslayer


I would think Hitler would actually probably learn more by being reincarnated as a mentally or physically handicapped person who lives in highly abusive surroundings.

But I guess he had more of a gripe with Jews than with any other group. So yeah okay that makes sense. I'm neither a Jew nor an invalid nor am I the subject of mass amounts of hatred.... so I guess my karmic debt resides elsewhere.

It is important not to confuse the Jewish Religion, with the State of Israel. The Religion is full of beauty and kindness, while the State is full of hatred and self centered thinking. That odd difference is what leads many to question their thoughts on the subject.

According to the Talmud, Zionism is wrong. Taking land, killing, etc is not in line with the foundation of the faith. This does not make Jewish people bad, is simply makes some of them wrong headed. You can say the same about any religion. The Pope harbors sex offenders. Some Muslims go against their faith and kill innocents. It does not make the Faith bad, simply the individuals. When the US tortured people, or did horrible medical experiments on the unknowing, it did not make the American people bad, just those who committed the acts.

It is good that you are open minded enough to question your thoughts on the matter. There are far too many who simply embrace hatred with a closed mind. Many simply lump all Muslims together with terrorists. Others think all Jews are the new Nazis. Both would be quite wrong and it would be the person who has that single minded outlook, who is in error.

Originally posted by dunwichwitch

Originally posted by dashen
Somebody owes me a bottle of Glenspey for this. Chosen means that we were tagged to be responsible. For what you may ask? Everything. SERIOUSLY. A baby girraffe falls down in Africa and breaks a leg, our fault. Alien KRLLLL has indigestion, our fault, but for good things too. But most importantly, if we mess up, we, as a people are held responsible. We believe and accept that(Orthodox). That's what Chosen People means, were chosen to be supremely responsible for our actions, and even the actions of others. Even if it means bearing the punishment of others.

Welll shouldn't all people bear that responsibility?

That philosophy is VERY VERY Eastern, my friend. I dig it... but it should apply to all life intelligent enough to bear the concept of responsibility.

Another interesting point this brings up, which might be a good subject for another thread.... HUMANS...... are we ALL Jews, in the sense that we bear the burden of the concept of feeling responsibility towards things?

Perhaps very few life forms in the galaxy, be they intelligent or basic, have a concept of responsibility. Perhaps we as humankind have been "chosen" as keepers of the universal order of fairness and balance.

What do you think of that concept, Dashen?

I truly thank you for your enlightenment on the subject of "chosen".

reply to post by Terapin


This is a good thread. I'm glad I started it. Thanks Terapin.

I try to observe myself enough to be able to question the things I say and do. Doesn't mean I never say and do stupid things.

Originally posted by dunwichwitch
reply to post by 44soulslayer

 

I wish I could travel out of the country... or afford to, anyway. I was thinking about going to a cynagogue or something. I feel guilty about feeling the way I feel.

Generally it's because you've been "trained" (by material you encountered) to see them in a negative light. You meet Jewish people all the time -- but they don't have big floaty signs over their heads saying, "Hi! I'm a Jew!" Only a few sects wear unusual clothing.

We have Jewish posters on the board -- and I suspect you don't have problems with many of them because no one has held up a sign saying "OMG!!! THIS PERSON IS JEWISH!!!" You've seen news articles on actors -- few of them nowadays shriek if an actor or director is Jewish.

The anti-Jew material is very biased. The pro-Jewish material is... well, it generally doesn't go into promoting the religion because they don't proselytize. That's against their religious ideas.

Instead of trying to "force" yourself, start looking for things that famous modern Jews have done. I happen to like many of Mel Brooks' movies (and there's all kinds of funny Jewish references in there -- as when the Indians in "Blazing Saddles" speak Yiddish). You might find it interesting to read about the holidays (since they commemorate things in the Old Testament that Christians (who are supposed to be observant of the whole Bible) forget (like the feast of Queen Esther... most Christians can't remember what she did... and many don't even know who she is.)

If you are Christian, reading on their feast days and so forth will give you a richer background for your own religion and fill in many details that have been ignored by a shallow modern society.

Later I would direct you to the rabbinical tales (fun folklore) and to the midrashes (as historical commentaries). Lots of deep thinkers there.

But your environment has been adjusted so that you got "programmed" into this mindset.

Originally posted by dunwichwitch
reply to post by 44soulslayer

 

I would think Hitler would actually probably learn more by being reincarnated as a mentally or physically handicapped person who lives in highly abusive surroundings.

But I guess he had more of a gripe with Jews than with any other group. So yeah okay that makes sense. I'm neither a Jew nor an invalid nor am I the subject of mass amounts of hatred.... so I guess my karmic debt resides elsewhere.

Actually,they were a convenient scapegoat.

For centuries, whenever a local government wanted to distract the people they would blame bad things on the Jews (like the plague, for instance.) They'd go to Jewish moneylenders...but if they couldn't repay what was borrowed, a nice riot that killed the moneylender and burned half the Jewish quarter settled things nicely.

So when Hitler needed a scapegoat to blame German economic woes on, he picked the Jews. Easy target. Lots of people disliked them. (For a simple example, it would be as if a US Senator started blaming Mexican immigrants in America for destroying the prime interest rate and causing the crash of the housing market. Enough hate speech from him, and you could have youth gangs running into places where ANY Hispanic person lived (or anyone who looked vaguely Hispanic) and killing them and looting their houses and so forth.) Lots of young people were out of work in Germany, so rioting and rounding up the Jews gave them something to do.

reply to post by Byrd


I disagree.

I don't think its modern conditioning by media/ society at large.

I think each person has a perception of reality that is unique to them. The reality doesn't change. There have always been pro-semites and anti-semites; its just a question of which of those views appeal to the person making the (albeit subconscious) decision.

At least in the UK, the media as a whole is fairly balanced when it comes to pro/anti semitism. Its just that one person sees the suffering of Palestinian civilians and becomes anti-semitic; or reads of kosher slaughter and disapproves etc whereas another person sees rockets landing in Israel/ learns about the nature of Judaism and becomes pro-semitic.

I see it this way. There are people who quietly follow Judaism for personal religious beliefs. They are just like anybody else, just living their lives, doing their thing, minding their own business.

Then there are those who use the "Jew Card" for sympathy, to silence critics, or otherwise get what they want. God forbid you criticize one of them, even if the criticism is warranted, you are an anti semite, racist, nazi, etc.. These are the ones with the biggest mouths and wind up being a representation of Jewish people to the public at large. Their arrogant, pretentious attitude doesn't represent the Jewish people very well and the result is people disliking Jews in general.

We see it on these boards when someone criticizes Israel. There will always be someone to defend "the jews". Well, we weren't talking about the jews, we were talking about the actions of the political leaders of a nation. If they also happen to be jews, so be it, but that's not what it's about.

reply to post by Byrd


Why is it....do you think.... that American media and culture.... is still so engaged in "programming" people into a mode where they see Jewish culture in a negative light? I would suspect it be because of the mainly pro-Christian right, who seem to be against anythng that isn't word for word out of the mouth of Billy Graham (sp?)... but then why would, after winning the war, American media be so heavily involved in demonizing anyone who even dared question any motive of any group if it involved a Jewish majority? Israeli government is obvously made up of a Jewish majority... and we can't touch criticizing Israel without being labeled anti-semite, yet we also still get the overall negative impression of Jewish culture from our overall American culture.... Is this purposeful in your opinion? In this country... people are so bombarded by contradictory influences that it's like we are all perpetually conflicted on what to think.

reply to post by 44soulslayer


Rockets can land in Israel, sure... but does Hezbollah or Hamas have a stockpile of nuclear weapons? Do they have the becking of U.S. interests?
Do they have the Military power of Israel?

They are both in the wrong because they are killing innocent people, but I would guess the Palestinian movements grew out of a necessity to defend themselves against a greater military power impedig on their land.

Like too many people to name have said here and elsewhere... "the pathway to hell is paved with good intentions" and no matter the beauty of the basic concepts of a religion... if those basic concepts are twisted over the ages to bring war and control and oppression and all of that on to innocent people who disagree..... you can bet that those innocents, over time, will react with similar mal-intent.

It's sympathy with Israel that really chaps me about modern mainstream Judaic thinking. I really had no opinion about Judaism before looking into the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. EDIT>>> Actually, correction, I was definitely sympathetic... the holocaust was terrible, and I was sympathetic that Jewish people had gone trough such horrible events.

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
Short answer: its illogical. It cannot be understood. Such is the nature of prejudice.

I think we are all prejudiced in one way or another. The only possible antidote is to meet the people who you are prejudiced against, talk to them, see what they are really like. Sometimes you will find that your prejudices are unwarranted, and other times you will find that they are spot on.

I have a few Jewish friends, which undoubtedly aids my capability to understand their mentality; which is why I do like Jews as a group.

You may not find the same thing... that's ok, that's life- we draw our own conclusions and then try and justify them.

If you are really bothered by your own innate anti-semitism then travel to Israel and make your own mind up firmly one way or another.

edit:spelling

[edit on 10-2-2009 by 44soulslayer]

I agree that we all harbors prejudices of some kind and I do believe that all prejudices are learned responses.

I find it amazingly interesting how when it comes to certain groups of people you can hate one and by proxy hate everyone in that group yet with another group you can like them all by proxy.

“I have a few Jewish friends, which undoubtedly aids my capability to understand their mentality; which is why I do like Jews as a group.”

I no more can understand how a person can hate all because of one than I a person that can like all because of one.

I know that it is too much to ask and that by nature it is impossible but I would love to see a world were every one got the benefit of the doubt.