Nurse suspended for prayer offer

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
reply to post by audas

 

You would get medicine regardless of the prayers this nurse offered. Would it really cause you severe psychological distress to have this nurse offer you her best will to get better? If it would then i suggest it is you with the problem and not the nurse.

No - I lose faith in the care I am being offered. If a Haitian came round offering to sacrifice a chicken and consult the entrails of a lizard I would be equally ill at ease.

You seem to feel that these things don't hurt, that they do no harm - i would not feel comfortable with a faith healer offering a trance induced incantation, nor even my tea leaves read.

These things have a place - you seem to think that offering to sacrifice a chicken to Christians is somehow different to offering a prayer for the devoutly anti-religious.

It is or these reasons that there is a clear , indelible line between church and state. Sacrificing chickens belongs in a voodoo ceremony , and prayers belong in church.

They are not harmless - they offend me to my very core - it is a shame you can not understand that.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by VelmaLu
Because it is offensive.

If we start censoring good will then we can extend it further to other beliefs and even normal worldly concerns. It's offensive for racists to voice their opinions but it's their right to hold those opinions and voice them. It's offensive to have someone deny the holocaust but it's their right to voice that opinion. It's offensive of a woman to proclaim all men are disgusting pigs, but it's her right to do so.

A racist ranting has no place in a patient/nurse relationship, and neither does anti-semetic ravings or sexism.

You have failed to address my question, so let me ask you again.

If no one is supposed to be offended if a Christian offers a prayer, then should anyone else be offended if a white supremecist does so (and yes, there is a religion associated with it)? How about a Satanist? A polygamist? How about someone who practices animal sacrifices?

Do you have a problem with any of those nurses proclaiming their religious beliefs for patients?

[edit on 3-2-2009 by VelmaLu]

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
reply to post by audas

 

You would get medicine regardless of the prayers this nurse offered. Would it really cause you severe psychological distress to have this nurse offer you her best will to get better? If it would then i suggest it is you with the problem and not the nurse.

So as long as the message contains something about getting well, you don't have a problem with the content?

She knew the rules when she applied for the job. She broke the rules, she can't work for them. Simple.

Originally posted by audas
You seem to feel that these things don't hurt, that they do no harm - i would not feel comfortable with a faith healer offering a trance induced incantation, nor even my tea leaves read.

That is exceedingly different for many reasons. Firstly an animal is about to die for no apparent reason. Whilst i am more then happy for someone to say a quiet prayer that hurts no one to help me, i am not willing to let an animal die with no benefit. The comparison is farcical. Everyone has a right to their own beliefs but i don't want an animal killed on my behalf.

Secondly i doubt sacrificing a chicken in a hospital is hygienic

Originally posted by audas
These things have a place - you seem to think that offering to sacrifice a chicken to Christians is somehow different to offering a prayer for the devoutly anti-religious.

Yep read what i said above and you'll see your comparison has a flaw.

Originally posted by audas
It is or these reasons that there is a clear , indelible line between church and state. Sacrificing chickens belongs in a voodoo ceremony , and prayers belong in church.

They are not harmless - they offend me to my very core - it is a shame you can not understand that.

It is a shame you are so offended by them. Again i'm an atheist, i believe in the sepration of church and state but we're not talking about the state here are we, we're talking about a private citizen offering a prayer to another private citizen. The receiver of the prayer can of course be offended, that is their right, however i don't understand what causes the offense.

I mean extremists in any belief are bad, and i think you are definitely an extremist. Live and let live will bring us more peace on earth than arguing about such small instances as this one. I would agree with you on banning religion from government schools, creationism shouldn't be taught and it should be left well out of politics.

All that being said if you are so utterly offended by someone offering you a prayer then i say you have some serious issues with your own belief system.

Live and let live.

Originally posted by VelmaLu
So as long as the message contains something about getting well, you don't have a problem with the content?

Racist speech is a right, shouting it at a patient would get the nurse fired and rightly so because it wouldn't help the patients recovery, so that comparison is false. As for animal sacrifices and such, please read my response in the post above. I don't want an animal harmed because of me when it will do no good. That is a different matter as a living, breathing creature is being killed.

As for your comments about satanists etc. Well i don't believe in satan so i would be fine with some satanist saying "Hey you mind if i go home tonight, throw on a black cowl, light some candles and call satan up to cure you?". I would just say go for it, turn over and go to sleep.

A white supremacist? As long as they didn't say anything racist then they can pray all they want for me. You see racism is covered under free speech, however insulting someone racially isn't going to help their recovery and is against the employment policy of every hospital in the UK or USA so the nurse would be fired instantly and rightly so. If however a white supremacist just offered me a prayer i would thank them and let them trot off to their stupid racist beliefs.

Polygamists? Where did that one come from? Well i support polygamy so it wouldn't bother me if they offered me a prayer. If a man or woman can have multiple partners, pay for them all and put up with them all then all power to them i say

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

The receiver of the prayer can of course be offended, that is their right, however i don't understand what causes the offense.


All that being said if you are so utterly offended by someone offering you a prayer then i say you have some serious issues with your own belief system.

Live and let live.

I'm not trying to be offensive but quite frankly you don't need to understand, the nurse knew it was against the rules and she broke the rule, she got suspended without pay, and now she's most likely going to be fired.



[edit on 4-2-2009 by Leto]

IMHO - this is UTTER TWADDLE .

i am an atheist - and the notion that people are ` praying for me ` actually makes me glow inside - saddly its a smug condesending glow of ` har har the idiots are wasting thier breath praying ` - but it still does perk me up

its only when people start to attempt to base medical treatment on religious principles that i would get a strop on

and that is NOT what this woman was doing

she was doing her job - just fine AND praying

she didnt withold medication or treatment - or suggest that the person NEEDED god to get better

so what is the problem i am all for freedom of religion - just so long as i and like minded people can have freedom from religion

people nowadays need to get a thicker skin - and firm up thier spine there is far too much of this ` people being offended ` crap going around

Originally posted by ignorant_ape

so what is the problem i am all for freedom of religion - just so long as i and like minded people can have freedom from religion

The problem is that she knowingly broke their rule. If she wants to openly pray for her patients she can go work at a Christian hospital.

Originally posted by Leto
I'm not trying to be offensive but quite frankly you don't need to understand, the nurse knew it was against the rules and she broke the rule, she got suspended without pay, and now she's most likely going to be fired.

Well it's against the rules and the rules have to be followed, however i am wondering why it's even against the rules so yes i have to try and understand. You can live in a black and white world, but someone offering prayer out of the kindness of their heart being fired? You really think that's a good rule?

I don't know, i think people are just far to sensitive and weak and that is why they complain over such things. People are far to easily offended and i think it's a sign of a downturn in society as a whole. We are playing into this idea of checking ourselves when we speak, controlling our thoughts and shaping our behavior. Is this really what freedom is about?

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by Leto
I'm not trying to be offensive but quite frankly you don't need to understand, the nurse knew it was against the rules and she broke the rule, she got suspended without pay, and now she's most likely going to be fired.

Well it's against the rules and the rules have to be followed, however i am wondering why it's even against the rules so yes i have to try and understand. You can live in a black and white world, but someone offering prayer out of the kindness of their heart being fired? You really think that's a good rule?

I don't know, i think people are just far to sensitive and weak and that is why they complain over such things. People are far to easily offended and i think it's a sign of a downturn in society as a whole. We are playing into this idea of checking ourselves when we speak, controlling our thoughts and shaping our behavior. Is this really what freedom is about?

According to the North Somerset Primary Care Trust website (www.northsomerset.nhs.uk...), their code of conduct sets out the expected standards of conduct, performance and ethics for nurses and midwives, and according to their code it is not acceptable to project personal beliefs unless invited to do so by patients and families.

A patient's care plan includes a description of their preference in relation to their spiritual needs. The nurse must abide by the patient's preference. It is only acceptable to offer spiritual support when the patient has stated that they wish to receive this as part of their care.

reply to post by Leto


Did i ever say it wasn't against the rules? Did i ever question that the rules stated she should be disciplined? No i didn't. I simply asked why it is against the rules. I mean i can understand why they implemented this ban, in case someone interfered medically with their beliefs and pushed them on a patient or their family to stop a treatment.

However when it comes to the idea of offence because someone offered a friendly prayer, well that boils down to this societies thin skin. You keep quoting the rules but we're asking why it's against the rules so maybe you could actually address the points made instead of rigidly sticking to the rulebook.

You're treating the rules like christians treat the bible, maybe that's your religion

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
reply to post by Leto

 

Did i ever say it wasn't against the rules? Did i ever question that the rules stated she should be disciplined? No i didn't. I simply asked why it is against the rules. I mean i can understand why they implemented this ban, in case someone interfered medically with their beliefs and pushed them on a patient or their family to stop a treatment.

However when it comes to the idea of offence because someone offered a friendly prayer, well that boils down to this societies thin skin. You keep quoting the rules but we're asking why it's against the rules so maybe you could actually address the points made instead of rigidly sticking to the rulebook.

You're treating the rules like christians treat the bible, maybe that's your religion

It's against their rules because the group doesn't want to offend their patients.

Whether or not someone's skin is as thick as yours is irrelevant, the group has a certain rule, this employee broke that rule, that's it. Why is this news?

Originally posted by Leto
It's against their rules because the group doesn't want to offend their patients.

Whether or not someone's skin is as thick as yours is irrelevant, the group has a certain rule, this employee broke that rule, that's it. Why is this news?

Again you fail to address the points raised, namely why is it that society has become so utterly thin skinned that someone can't offer something that they think will help? Please tell me why this was so offensive? Why couldn't the patient just nod and turn away. I cannot comprehend why this patient would have felt so offended over this and i say that as an atheist! You expect atheists to be the most offended but only the extreme ones are.

I'm sorry but if we're devolving speech down to the point where we have to constantly watch exactly what we say in fear of offending someone then freedom is lost and gone. This doesn't mean someone can sit in front of a patient and hurl racist abuse at them as this is never going to be received positively, but to think that a simple offer of a well meant gesture is being used to discipline a nurse is ludicrous. To think the patient was offended by this is really stretching the imagination.

I think this patient most likely complained out of a hope of getting a payoff. We have become a culture of people waiting to be offended in the hope of suing others or getting something out of it, or just wanting to be offended for the attention it garners.

That is why this is news worthy, because it speaks volumes about where our society is going, where it is and where it has been.

[edit on 4-2-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Again you fail to address the points raised, namely why is it that society has become so utterly thin skinned that someone can't offer something that they think will help? Please tell me why this was so offensive? Why couldn't the patient just nod and turn away. I cannot comprehend why this patient would have felt so offended over this and i say that as an atheist! You expect atheists to be the most offended but only the extreme ones are.

Why would an atheist be most offended? I'm certain some followers of other faiths would beg to differ.

To think the patient was offended by this is really stretching the imagination.

This patient wasn't offended, but others might.

I think this patient most likely complained out of a hope of getting a payoff. We have become a culture of people waiting to be offended in the hope of suing others or getting something out of it, or just wanting to be offended for the attention it garners.

According to the article she reported it to another nurse because she was concerned that someone else might be offended by it.

That is why this is news worthy, because it speaks volumes about where our society is going, where it is and where it has been.

Thousands of years ago people were killed because of their religious beliefs. That still happens to this day in some parts of our planet. It is a good thing that some societies are attempting to be tolerant and respectful of the beliefs of others.

Originally posted by Leto
Thousands of years ago people were killed because of their religious beliefs. That still happens to this day in some parts of our planet. It is a good thing that some societies are attempting to be tolerant and respectful of the beliefs of others.

You think stopping a nurse from being able to offer a prayer to someone is tolerant? I think that is the height of intolerance.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by Leto
Thousands of years ago people were killed because of their religious beliefs. That still happens to this day in some parts of our planet. It is a good thing that some societies are attempting to be tolerant and respectful of the beliefs of others.

You think stopping a nurse from being able to offer a prayer to someone is tolerant? I think that is the height of intolerance.

Stopping a nurse from offering a Christian prayer to those who do not wish to receive any such offers is tolerant of the patient's wishes.

No one is forcing the nurse to work for the group, she can go work at a Christan hospital if she wishes.

reply to post by Leto


Man political correctness has just over taken our society and now you can't offer a simple prayer. The patient also has to be tolerant don't you think? I'm not religious and yet i would have tolerated it and i can tell you the simple reason. I don't buy into all this political correctness.

These people are acting like they didn't grow up from when they were in the playground at school and someone called them a bad name. It toughened you up, made you learn to cope with such things and brush them off. Why is it we've lost that? Don't you think that this kind of incident, where someone complains over such a small thing is the leading cause of segregation.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
reply to post by Leto

 

Man political correctness has just over taken our society and now you can't offer a simple prayer. The patient also has to be tolerant don't you think? I'm not religious and yet i would have tolerated it and i can tell you the simple reason. I don't buy into all this political correctness.

These people are acting like they didn't grow up from when they were in the playground at school and someone called them a bad name. It toughened you up, made you learn to cope with such things and brush them off. Why is it we've lost that? Don't you think that this kind of incident, where someone complains over such a small thing is the leading cause of segregation.

You're free to offer prayers, just not as an employee of that group. I think the patient has a right to be taken care of by someone who is tolerant of their beliefs, I don't see why the patient should be forced to be tolerant of the beliefs of the nurse. I think the last thing you'd want to do to a patient is increase their blood pressure by offending them.

I don't see how this type of incident could lead to segregation.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

The patient also has to be tolerant don't you think? I'm not religious and yet i would have tolerated it and i can tell you the simple reason. I don't buy into all this political correctness.

You could tolerate it, I could tolerate it, but this woman felt it was inappropriate. Why can't you deal with that?
She has a right to her feelings. Not everyone has to be the same.
I defend her right to feel however she wants to about this issue. Its her home, and her life.