Nurse suspended for prayer offer

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
reply to post by VelmaLu

 

If i buy a patient a bunch of grapes, hoping they'll help them get well and it turns out they are mortally afraid of grapes, then should i be disciplined? Fired? Sued? Where is the line crossed?

And what if the patient can't object (for whatever reason) and is allergic to grapes? What if the hospital told you to stop giving patients food that wasn't prescribed?

It doesn't matter WHY someone doesn't want it, the fact is, patients should not be forced to accept grapes, prayers, someone waving a chicken bone, a Bible or any other nonsense in a hospital setting.

You don't think anyone should object, regardless of their reason for doing so.

reply to post by VelmaLu


Think you missed the point of that grape example. I never said people shouldn't object, i said she didn't have to get someone in trouble over it. The point of the grape example is someone really thinking they're helping but getting it wrong, punishment for well meaning people? Or just a talking to? I prefer the latter. As i said we won't agree and the only thing i can do now is repeat all the points already made. I won't be doing that.

I can understand religious zealotry and you are obviously just as passionate about being anti religious. Neither of these things is good.

Peace.

I did understand your point, I just think it's dangerous.

If you're giving out grapes to patients and I tell you that someone could be allergic and you continue to do so, I have a moral obligation to stop you.

Because the next patient may not be in a position to protest. The next patient my be harmed by you, especially since you believe what you are doing is helpful.

What are you advocating someone do when talking doesn't work? Just allow her to continue doing this?

reply to post by VelmaLu


I'm sorry but this is getting silly now. I stated two pages back that if it's against the rules she should be disciplined. Go and check it out. If that is what you are arguing about then we agreed two pages back and instead of seeing that you saw what you wanted to see and kept arguing.

My further posts were about why it shouldn't be against the rules, not the current situation. Yet you are still talking about the current situation and her being told to stop it. We agree on this point because the current rules state she should be suspended. I just don't agree with those rules and furthermore as i stated before, i just think people are waiting to be offended nowadays. Skins are paper thin and getting thinner.

That is not a good thing.

it sounds to me that faith is being taken out of this world again. So how long will it be before all christian rights dissapear.

praying outlawed again. that is very sad.

maybe the antichrist is here already


[edit on 8-2-2009 by crazyjames65]

Originally posted by crazyjames65
it sounds to me that faith is being taken out of this world again. So how long will it be before all christian rights dissapear.

praying outlawed again. that is very sad.

maybe the antichrist is here already


[edit on 8-2-2009 by crazyjames65]

Christianity is far from being threatened, in many countries it is seeing a resurgence. I supported this nurses actions and i'm an atheist, shock horror to most christians i'm sure as they see atheists as the enemy. Prayer is rarely banned, it just so happens that in a medical setting it is, i don't agree with it but i hardly see this as the end of the christian faith.

Christians feel threatened today more and more and yet they are suffering less threat than ever. Well unless you want to battle is out with Islam for converts.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
reply to post by VelmaLu

 

My further posts were about why it shouldn't be against the rules, not the current situation. Yet you are still talking about the current situation and her being told to stop it. We agree on this point because the current rules state she should be suspended. I just don't agree with those rules and furthermore as i stated before, i just think people are waiting to be offended nowadays. Skins are paper thin and getting thinner.

That is not a good thing.

It's getting silly to you because you are missing the point. Still.

I am talking about the rules.

Why should someone be allowed to continue to engage in a behavior which offends people? If asked to stop and they don't, then what do you believe should be done?

You said you don't think there should be a rule for her to be fired, so if an employee continues in a behavior which others find offensive, how should they be stopped? If she continues to pray when told not to, if she continues to give grapes, if she continues to wear perfume -- whatever is causing the problem, how do you stop the behavior?

As an example, the nurse was told repeatedly to stop proselytizing. She did not. You suggested that she should be talked to by someone in authority. Obviously, that occurred and didn't work. What is your solution then? A patient who finds this to be offensive should be told to shove it?

Originally posted by VelmaLu
It's getting silly to you because you are missing the point. Still.

I am talking about the rules.

Ok i'm sorry this is now ridiculous, i already said that if it's in the rules she should be disciplined. I have said it again and again and if you portray otherwise you are being dishonest. So hey i'll say it again in bold as you just don't get it.

It is currently against the rules and so she should be disciplined. However i wish it weren't against the rules, i want the rules changed and think people are to sensitive. Again though as it is against the rules she should be disciplined in this case and any other nurse in a similar situation needs to be disciplined until the rules are changed.

Originally posted by VelmaLu
You said you don't think there should be a rule for her to be fired, so if an employee continues in a behavior which others find offensive, how should they be stopped? If she continues to pray when told not to, if she continues to give grapes, if she continues to wear perfume -- whatever is causing the problem, how do you stop the behavior?

We're down to perfume now? Man you have no sense of freedom do you? If we bring this down to the level of perfume then no one can do anything and everything offends everyone. Because i can guarantee you that everything will offend someone sometime and so by your standard we would be sitting at home scared to break wind in case we offend someone.

Hey here is a question. If a patient is offended by a black nurse treating him/her should that black nurse be disciplined for being black? After all that nurse is causing offense to the patient! You see there is a balance here.

Originally posted by VelmaLu
As an example, the nurse was told repeatedly to stop proselytizing. She did not. You suggested that she should be talked to by someone in authority. Obviously, that occurred and didn't work. What is your solution then? A patient who finds this to be offensive should be told to shove it?

As i stated ALREADY, as it is against the rules she should be disciplined. I fail to see how you miss what i have said, over and over and over, post after post i have said she needs to be disciplined as it is against the rules. I just don't agree with the rules.

Read what i have posted not what you think i have. I put the important stuff in bold above so please don't ignore it again otherwise i will just give up on answering you. I wouldn't mind if i was avoiding the issue but i have agreed with you over and over about her needing to be disciplined.

By all accounts from todays Sunday Telegraph, this Nurse is due for a meeting with her bosses at her PCT. She has stated that this will NOT stop her from doing this again in the future.

BTW, she is NOT a contracted Nurse but a Bank Nurse ...... not that that should make a difference.

Originally posted by Wotan
By all accounts from todays Sunday Telegraph, this Nurse is due for a meeting with her bosses at her PCT. She has stated that this will NOT stop her from doing this again in the future.

BTW, she is NOT a contracted Nurse but a Bank Nurse ...... not that that should make a difference.

As it is against the rules and as she is unapologetic then maybe she should be let go. It is currently against the rules and that should be the end of it in this situation.

I hope the rules are changed in the future though. I'm not saying nurses should be able to preach to their patients but the offer of a prayer causing trouble is wrong to me. This should have been a small matter.

I just want to thank Wotan for keeping the thread up to date on the situation.

No problem my friend. As a Nurse myself and an RCN rep, I have an interest in this case.

Originally posted by Wotan
No problem my friend. As a Nurse myself and an RCN rep, I have an interest in this case.

Yeah i know this but still you didn't have to so thanks As it stands if the nurse is still deffinate when the rules are clear she should be let go. I hate saying that about a nurse when they are treated so badly but there is little way around it. Otherwise the NHS could be facing some kind of lawsuit.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by Wotan
No problem my friend. As a Nurse myself and an RCN rep, I have an interest in this case.

Yeah i know this but still you didn't have to so thanks

As it stands if the nurse is still deffinate when the rules are clear she should be let go. I hate saying that about a nurse when they are treated so badly but there is little way around it. Otherwise the NHS could be facing some kind of lawsuit.

In this case, as she is a Bank Nurse, it would be no problem to get 'rid of her'. All they have to do is not send any work her way. I am not sure whether she is on the PCT's own Nursing bank or a part of NHS Professionals, which is the NHS's Nursing Bank.

I cant help but feel that this nurse is setting herself up for martyrdom. I this had been a one-off 'mistake', then most would be sympathetic to her case, BUT, she has a history of this and has stated that she would do it again ...... You just cant help some people sometimes. I am very glad that I am not defending her case.

reply to post by Wotan


I must agree. As she is unapologetic i think she is setting herself up as a matyr as you say and maybe looking for some kind of payout. Very like the woman who was working for British Airways and wore the cross. She could have solved that peacefully but went full on with the legal suit.

Maybe it's a comment on Britain becoming a suing culture?

This is nothing new. My mom and aunt have been nurses for 23 years and 30 years.

Every hospital they have worked for in the last 15-20 years has had a policy that they can not offer up prayer of any kind unless the patient asks them to join them in a prayer.

Now there was a time at St.Paul hospital in Dallas when my aunt worked there. It was run by nuns and priests at the time. She actually got yelled at and almost fired for administiiring CPR before calling the priests to perform last rights.

The guy lived because of her. The man would have been dead had she waited for a priest to get their and perform last rights before starting CPR.

anyway, its nothing all that new, and it has nothing to do with "thought police" or anything like that. Its more of an issue of political correctness than anything.

sort of the same thing as saying happy holidays instead of merry christmas.

Its a policy that was put in place to stupid law suits. Yes, people will try and sue over stuff like that.

If a person, for example, is jewish and a nurse takes it upon themselves to say a budhist prayer,there are people out there who would sue over that.

Its just in place to prevent claims of religious discrimination and prejudice and all that.

I personally would not be offended if some one said a prayer for me, no matter what religion the prayer came from. I wouldnt be offended because I believe in god but I dont follow any one religion, in a way I think we are worshiping the same god anyway.

But yeah, like I said, its nothing new, its just there to prevent stupid law suits. When she was hired there she agreed to not say prayers for some one unless they asked her to participate in one that the patient initiates. She violated that rule and that is why she has gotten in trouble.

Much the same as she would had she broke any other policy of the hospital.

Originally posted by Wotan
No problem my friend. As a Nurse myself and an RCN rep, I have an interest in this case.

Im a union nurse myself. If she is going to keep doing this as a patient then I would sue the hospital for violating my rights in this manner. Given her track record I would expect that the hospital would settle if it chooses to keep her ont he staff.

She has a greater agenda. If she was this devout she could say all the prayers she wanted AWAY from the patient but is instead choosing this route

reply to post by The Last Man on Earth


She got her job back..................so what's the fuss - She will continue to do as she normally does - AMEN!

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
It is currently against the rules and so she should be disciplined. However i wish it weren't against the rules, i want the rules changed and think people are to sensitive. Again though as it is against the rules she should be disciplined in this case and any other nurse in a similar situation needs to be disciplined until the rules are changed.

AGAIN, HOW WOULD YOU CHANGE THE RULES? You say you are opposed to the rules, how should the rules be changed?

Read that again, I'm asking you what rules should be put in place?

We're down to perfume now? Man you have no sense of freedom do you? If we bring this down to the level of perfume then no one can do anything and everything offends everyone.

Quite a few people are very allergic to perfume. It was merely an example pointing out that some behaviors that less thinking humans might see as being perfectly acceptable can be quite detrimental to others, especially in a health setting.

If a patient is offended by a black nurse treating him/her should that black nurse be disciplined for being black? After all that nurse is causing offense to the patient! You see there is a balance here.

Is the black nurse preaching?

As i stated ALREADY, as it is against the rules she should be disciplined. I fail to see how you miss what i have said, over and over and over, post after post i have said she needs to be disciplined as it is against the rules. I just don't agree with the rules.

Read what i have posted not what you think i have. I put the important stuff in bold above so please don't ignore it again otherwise i will just give up on answering you. I wouldn't mind if i was avoiding the issue but i have agreed with you over and over about her needing to be disciplined.

I'm not asking whether IN THIS CASE she should have been disciplined. I am asking you how the rules should be changed.

Let's pretend to have a fictional hospital with no rules and nurse continues to pray over patients, patients ask her to stop, her employer asks her to stop and she doesn't. THERE'S NO RULE AGAINST IT.

What should happen?

Originally posted by FredT

Originally posted by Wotan
No problem my friend. As a Nurse myself and an RCN rep, I have an interest in this case.

Im a union nurse myself. If she is going to keep doing this as a patient then I would sue the hospital for violating my rights in this manner. Given her track record I would expect that the hospital would settle if it chooses to keep her ont he staff.

She has a greater agenda. If she was this devout she could say all the prayers she wanted AWAY from the patient but is instead choosing this route

Not that Wotan needs defending but he/she was simply answering my question and not passing judgment upon it. I must admit that a nurse going on and on without any apology says a lot about her agenda. A one off event would be one thing but to go on and on suggests she is forcing her religion upon people and that is never a good thing. Her recent refusal to apologise has changed my view a great deal on this case.

reply to post by VelmaLu


Ok easy, 3 strikes and you're out, that's the rules for me. Is that easy enough to follow? If a nurse does it once then it's excusable as a mistake. If it's twice then a decent warning, if it's three times well then they're determined and should be expelled from NHS work.

I think this is a fair and simple approach.