Nurse suspended for prayer offer

When I become and elderly woman, alone in my home, and if I am in need of a nurse to change dressings on my wounds, please proselytize to me about Christ, Buddah, Allah, or the Tooth Fairy, and I will still thank you for your services on the way out.

I am not firmly planted in my religous and spiritual beliefs yet, but I don't believe that anyone offering to pray for me is going to sway me into one conviction or the other. If someone's offer of prayer were to ever offend me, I would most likely question why my belief structure placed my beliefs on a moral high ground over other's beliefs.

Beyond that, where does the assumption that we should punish those that offend us come from? If you are incapable of being offended and moving on with your life, without enacting revenge on the offender....well, you offend me!

Okay, first off.

She was a Community Nurse and she committed this offence in the person's own home, NOT in a hospital. Thus this person was especially vulnerable.

She has a history of similar offences and has been warned before.

She has broken several Standards of Proficiency from the Nursing and Midwifery Council's (NMC 2008) Code of Professional Conduct:-

P1.1 - Manage oneself, one's practice and that of others in accordance with the NMC Code of Professional Conduct: standards for conduct, performance and ethics, recognising one's own abilities and limitations.

P1.2 - Practice in accordance with an ethical and legal framework which ensures the primacy of patient and client interest and wellbeing and respects confidentiality.

P1.3 Practice in a fair and anti-discriminatory way, acknowledging the differences in beliefs and cultural practices of individuals or groups.

She was practicing skills outside of her remit as a Nurse.

Originally posted by jon1
May i suggest you read the post again.
this was done in a hostpital so she was getting medical help, just because the nurse prayed for her does not mean she was not doing her job.

during a home visit

Not in a hostpital.. But in the womans home. In the video the nurse said that people need more than just dressing on a wound. That they have spiritual needs.
She has no place to tell others what they need spiritually.

Personally I don't mind if someone wants to pray for me.. But when they start saying.. I have other needs spiritually thats when I start feeling like their "compassion" is just a sly way to try to convert a person to a said faith.

If you want to say some kind words, and a small prayer, why ask? Just say your prayer in your head and help that way..

No need to voice that concern.
When I feel the nurse was being pushy about her feelings on her faith.

Many will claim she was doing this out of compassion.. Yet that is a cover.
The woman needed medical care in her home. She had no real need to hear a woman claim what she needed spiritually. Its not her place.

And if she really did have compassion.. She would have said her prayer in her own mind, and allowed that energy to flow..

Why do people of most faiths feel they need to voice the said prayer?

Why not just do the prayer in your mind, and send postive thoughts that way.. Bam, done deal.. She does her thing.. And feels better becasue she did her prayer.

Yet she felt compelled to voice her spiritual needs upon this woman..

AS the nurse clearly said in the video.. People have other needs than just medical care.. Well some people do not want spiritual care.. They just want medical care..

If you want to pray for someone.. I take no issue to that..

But something tells me, this nurse is the type to be a little pushy about going to church on sunday.. And feels the need to "save" all those people who don't waste their sundays and money going to church on sunday.

Compassion? Or spiritual conversions in a sly manner.

Most faith based people have been far to pushy for so long, that there comes a time when people have to stand up and say enough is enough.
Take your prayers, and keep them to yourself..

I mean if you really do care.. Say the prayer in silent and move on..
Don't push that on us and make us feel guilty..

Guilt and Fear.. The sword and sheild of most faiths..

Most faiths claim War on others who don't belive..
The litterally say that in their sunday Mass... Its a WAR.. And you are warriors of GOD.

It should have no place in our homes..
Granted you go to a church or else where outside your home, your going to feel that full force..

I just smile and tell them no thanks..
But if they need to pray for me.. Feel free to do that.. Just don't ask me to pray with you in said Gods name..
Pray to yourself.. And if someone asks you.. Then go ahead..

You have to admit.. Religion gets very pushy.. And has been for a long time!!

As a Christian and a nurse, I have mixed feelings about this story. I've had people pray for me that felt like they were praying AT me. It was NOT comforting. It depends on the spirit in which it is offered/given.

When my brother was dying of leukemia our family was praying mightily. One day he had a nurse who saw us praying and boldly jumped in. I would not have minded if she had respectfully, politely showed her compassion but she did not.

She "laid hands" on my brother and began to "cast out the evil spirits" in him. I was grossly offended. My brother was hurt and confused. He was dying. He wondered if that meant he was evil and worthy of death.

I complained to the nurse and to her superiors that my brother did not have an evil spirit in need of exorcising; he had leukemia in need of treatment. She needed to keep her religious preconceptions and prejudices to herself.

Compassion (and prayer-a voicing of that compassion) is always welcome. Religion is anathema.

I have prayed for some of my patients and when I walk into a room where others are praying for the patient, I stand apart with my head bowed and my mouth shut. When they're done, I say "amen". No one has yet complained.

Medicine is one of the most egalitarian professions around. We all bleed red. I have a doctorate in divinity but the hospital did not hire me as a preacher or spiritual counselor. They hired me as a nurse. My work there is as a nurse.

I am happy to tend to their spiritual needs if I am able but I am careful to keep my professional dealings separate from my personal dealings. Prayer is one of the services I offer as a nurse when asked. If I feel they need more prayer than my professional status will allow, I do it silently.

Originally posted by Daniem
Might as well say: "want me to wish you well?"

While I don't think the nurse should have been suspended, I agree with the above statement. If the nurse wanted to pray for her patient, she doesn't need her permission. She could do that the next time she prays. She could light a candle or mention the patient at mass or whatever.

But I do think it's socially inappropriate to ask whether or not the patient wanted her to pray. NOT that it should be illegal or bring on a suspension, but I think it's socially inappropriate. If it is a habit with this nurse or she's had several complaints against her, some sort of action should be taken. Perhaps a verbal warning. But if this is the first complaint, I think suspension is way overboard.

Think of a different profession. If you went to get some car parts to fix your car and the burly guy behind the counter hands you your part and asks, "Do you want me to pray for you"? WTH?

(The link froze my computer so I couldn't read the story.)

Edit:

Originally posted by Wotan
She has a history of similar offences and has been warned before.

I should have read the thread before posting. If this is the case, I totally agree with the suspension.

[edit on 2-2-2009 by Benevolent Heretic]

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


The nurse is a Baptist, no mass.
Many Christians,including Baptists, sometimes, believe that you HAVE to 'lay hands' on the patient when you pray.
"and you shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover".
She asked first, also. The lady said no. What's the problem?
People have a soul as well as a physical body.

Originally posted by Clearskies
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

 

The nurse is a Baptist, no mass.
Many Christians,including Baptists, sometimes, believe that you HAVE to 'lay hands' on the patient when you pray.
"and you shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover".
She asked first, also. The lady said no. What's the problem?
People have a soul as well as a physical body.

The problem is ..... that the nurse acted in an unprofessional manner and outside of her job description. She is a nurse not a priest - she is paid to provide healthcare not prayer. She also preyed on a lonely vulnerable person in their own home.

You’ll get no argument from me that there are many overzealous religious people in this world. Yes, many are pushy and feel they need to save people that they believe to be wrong. My issue with this instance is that being pushy about anything becomes a punishable offense. If the woman had actually been offended by the nurse’s religious talk, which she was not, should the company simply not send that nurse back to the same residence, or should they suspend her without pay pending an investigation. The whole ordeal is time and resource consuming for the employer and a financial burden on the employee, and for what? So that one person sleeps a little better that night knowing that the pushy religious nut doesn’t get a paycheck next week?

The whole thing is asinine and juvenile. It reminds me of child whining about another child on the playground saying that Santa isn’t real and the teacher punishing the offending child. In this case, as long as the nurse was doing her job and did no physical harm to the woman, she should not have been suspended. When we let things like this go on, we are encouraging a system that protects the feelings of whomever is offended. We will all inadvertently offend someone at sometime, even if it’s by saying bless you, after a sneeze. Should we be suspended without pay as well?

Originally posted by Clearskies
Many Christians,including Baptists, sometimes, believe that you HAVE to 'lay hands' on the patient when you pray.

But that's the nurse's belief, not necessarily the patient's. What "comfort" can be provided if what the comforter is doing feels icky? What comfort is that?

She asked first, also. The lady said no. What's the problem?

The problem is that the nurse had been warned against doing it. Apparently there had been complaints. It's unprofessional. If she asked, "Would you like me to make an offering of a goat for you"? it would have been the same socially inappropriate and unprofessional thing to do.

People have a soul as well as a physical body.

Perhaps, but if the nurse wanted to pray, she could have prayed. Silently, while wrapping the wound. Or later. She didn't need to ask permission and had been warned against doing so.

It's wrong for her to use her profession to proselytize.

If a non-religious nurse was in the home of a Christian and offered to perform a pagan ritual she would suffer the same or worse.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic


But that's the nurse's belief, not necessarily the patient's. What "comfort" can be provided if what the comforter is doing feels icky? What comfort is that?

Icky?
When someone gives you acupuncture, while focusing on your 'chi', how does that make you feel?
What about massage, with buddhist music?

The problem is that the nurse had been warned against doing it. Apparently there had been complaints. It's unprofessional. If she asked, "Would you like me to make an offering of a goat for you"? it would have been the same socially inappropriate and unprofessional thing to do.

Unless she was going to slit the goat's throat, right there and get blood on her carpet, she could've been woman enough(though elderly) to say "No thanks" and leave it at that.
I am a Christian and if someone offered to sacrifice a goat/chicken what have you, I would say "no" and explain why, but I would at least see that they were trying to help in their own bizarre way!

Perhaps, but if the nurse wanted to pray, she could have prayed. Silently, while wrapping the wound. Or later. She didn't need to ask permission and had been warned against doing so.

Maybe saying it out loud is the way she does it?

It's wrong for her to use her profession to proselytize.

Do you really believe she was trying to make that woman a Baptist
to get more on the member list? No.

reply to post by Daniem

Ive seen many a case of christians that turn to prayer instead of getting medical help.. and this to be done by someone who's job it is to give "medical" help is just shocking.

What I find intriguing about this story is that the lifelong nurse and lifelong christian, did not observed that no amount of prayers had saved her mum.

One would have though that a nurse of all people would be aware that scientific studies "in hospitals " have shown no evidence of the effect of prayer upon patients.

However in the defense of the nurse I fail to see how her actions could be construed as potentially offensive to anyone. As much as I find christianity repulsive this seems to be PC gone mad, surely if the hospital management had real concern they would offer the nurse some form of counseling for her delusion.

If I were dying away on a hospital bed and a muslim offered to pray to allah to get me fixed up and not dead, then what the hell, carry on dude prove your case show me a miracle the doctors (who were sent by god apparently) failed now get your juju stick out.

Perhaps if the medical profession are taking this stance with the nurse then they should not employ people who suffer from delusion to begin with.

Originally posted by Clearskies
Icky?

Yes. Icky. People are different. While an offer of prayer might feel nice to some, it feels icky to others. Clearly, or there wouldn't have been complaints.

When someone gives you acupuncture, while focusing on your 'chi', how does that make you feel?

If I invited an acupuncturist into my home to treat me, it would probably feel pretty great. But if I invited an insurance salesman into my home, his offer of doing acupuncture and focusing on my chi might very well feel icky, inappropriate and unprofessional.

What about massage, with buddhist music?

Again, if I employed a masseuse, it would be great. But if my cable guy started massaging me, I may actually hurt him...

This woman didn't invite a preacher into her home, she invited a nurse.

I am a Christian and if someone offered to sacrifice a goat/chicken what have you, I would say "no" and explain why, but I would at least see that they were trying to help in their own bizarre way!

That's you. Surely you understand that not everyone would respond in the same way... If a nurse was offering to slaughter animals for her patients, it's absolutely understandable to me that there might be complaints.

Don't you agree?

Maybe saying it out loud is the way she does it?

She is at work. She has a job to do. She is there to serve the patient. Not to fulfill HER own desires to pray "the way she does it".

Do you really believe she was trying to make that woman a Baptist
to get more on the member list? No.

Are you asking me or answering for me? In my experience, people who start talking to me about religion are in the beginning stages of some sort of attempt at persuasion.

Nice. A Christian nurse is suspended due to asking a patient if they would like prayer. Once the patient declined, the nurse complied and did not press the issue.

Meanwhile, also in the UK:

www.dailymail.co.uk...

Bending over backwards to accommodate female Muslim medical workers who don't want to expose their forearms to wash for sanitary purposes.

I hope you guys are having fun over there across the pond.

reply to post by AshleyD


Please note.. Most of us, if not all of us think this was a little harsh treatment.
However she was warned before, so its not like a 1 time thing.

Also many faiths have been so pushy in the past.. Its about time others start pushing back.. Childish I know.. I know..

But thats the world in which we live in..

Well, from an Atheists point of view, on face value this doesn't make much sense to me either...

however, I have known religious people to use "prayer" as a means of insulting you.
It's hard to understand until I give an example, then you'll recognize it immediately, so hold on...


It was actually just last month, one man in his futile attempts to get me to join his church was visibly getting irritable...
... he actually said "I'm going to pray for you... Forgive this sinner father, he doesn't understand the disgusting path he has chosen to walk. He doesn't realize he is a vile creature who will rot and burn in hell for an eternity."

... yeah. I'm rather surprised I was able to continue smiling at him.
I mean, I was justified to start calling him every name in the book and completely verbally trash his religion and him right there and then.
I wanted to, but somehow I managed to restrain myself.


Anyhow, the point is, I have trouble believing that anyone would get upset over someone elses simple and honest desire to pray for them...
... unless it wasn't an honest desire to pray for them, and more like a desire to ridicule them for their beliefs through the use of "prayer".

I know of a few religious people who are quite good at covering their backsides by wording their insults in the form of a prayer.
(One of them is still rather angry at me after I told his minister about him... lol. That was fun.)

[edit on 2-2-2009 by johnsky]

reply to post by The Last Man on Earth

"The woman mentioned it to the sister who did her dressing the following day. She said that she wasn't offended but was concerned that someone else might be. "

Absurd.. hope that dumbass woman is happy about her self. Told on her because "someone else might be offended". I am disgusted that I have to live in times like these with imbeciles like that.

Some of you seem to be missing the point here. The point being about ethics and a breach of the NMC Code of Professional Conduct. This Nurse has brought herself and the nursing profession into disrepute by her breach of the code of ethics. She had been warned about this behaviour before, so she knew what the consequences of her actions could be.

Nurses are taught to uphold a patients' privacy, dignity and respect at ALL times. This nurse clearly ignored these.

It is unethical for a nurse to practice her religious beliefs on a patient/client, especially as the patient is considered vulnerable and a 'captive audience'.

If this nurse wanted to help this patient with her 'spiritual needs', then she should have offered to call a parish priest, if that is what the patient wanted. There is no evidence given that the patient even wanted any spiritual help, so this nurse should not have even mentioned it in the first place.

Most people with an ounce of common sense know that religion and politics are taboo subjects that should only be broached in the company of good friends ........ certainly not with patients/clients.

It's news like this that makes people scared to talk to anyone anymore. People read this and think, oh, prayer is offensive to people eh! Well, I better report anyone who mentions the word prayer at all from now on, even if it doesn't offend me, but just in case someone else is offended. That makes me a good watchdog, uhh I mean citizen!
Goodbye free speech.

Originally posted by Daniem
She needs to do her job, and not just turn to easy solutions like prayer, which has never been proven to acctually work. Might as well say: "want me to wish you well?" Maybe it'll come true.

Nowhere did I see that she wasn't doing her job.

She wasn't wise to offer a prayer, since free speech is long dead, but if she strongly believes prayer will help someone you can understand why she said it.

People are all hypocrites, they proclaim and glorify tolerance of others, but turn around and act so intolerant, more by the day.

reply to post by AshleyD

Bending over backwards to accommodate female Muslim medical workers who don't want to expose their forearms to wash for sanitary purposes. I hope you guys are having fun over there across the pond.

Good spot AD, I never saw this article dear god what is it with bloody religions ?


I think it's about time there was a change in employment contracts and laws, in that any employee should be contractually obliged to drop their religious beliefs when at work. Likewise employers would be contractually obliged not to allow the employee to take work home with them.

Perhaps family life would be improved somewhat without all problems revolving around work an religion being brought up at dinner time.