Is it time to ditch the bible?

Originally posted by huckfinn
reply to post by Thistled

 

Being located at an airbase on the outskirts of Basra and packing your things to go home in 4 months does not represent a victory. The whole situation in Basra is nothing more than a way for the UK to save face and exit with dignity...made possible by the magnanimous US authority.

If you read the Bible and possessed any understanding of it you would see that the above analysis is indeed the case.

Who's the Sheeple now?

[edit on 3-2-2009 by huckfinn]

Quote from our PM. ""Our military commanders expect the 1st Division in Basra to be fully trained during the first months of next year,". Tis right, we are helping them to look after themselves and maintain order. Jobs almost done and looking good. When they are ready, we are out of there. Yay! No bibles either.

Originally posted by Clearskies
reply to post by Thistled

 

Then why do you sound so bitter? Honestly.

Wisdom makes you realize there are greater things than yourself and your intelligence(and fleshly gratifications).

That will always be the danger with written txt, misconstrued, and some people are very good at doing that.

There are many greater things than me, for I am a mere microcosm in the universe. I am nothing.

reply to post by Thistled


I am sure that the British commander said that and you obviously believe everything he says, but what I am talking about are subtleties; hidden realities. What's really going on? What does it really mean?

You are ignoring my assertion that the British were thrown a bone and allowed to make a dignified exit after failing achieve Strategic goals. Your Government and Military didn't go to Iraq to train Iraqi soldiers, but if you believe that they did...I don't know what to tell you.

But, the Bible makes it possible to make a more refined and astute analysis of what is happening in Iraq. You'll obviously never know what is really going on in the world and don't want to. I get it.


PS. Those were the words of your new commander, correct? Not the one that led you to Iraq, but the one who was elected to find a way out after Blair totally screwed it up for you.

[edit on 3-2-2009 by huckfinn]

reply to post by Clearskies

I agree with most of your list of wolves in sheep's clothing, except D. James Kennedy. What did he do wrong? Did he have a huge mansion and beemers all around his compound? He was CERTAINLY no "name it and claim it", preacher crying about how he needed more money.

My basic criticism of Kennedy was his background. Before he was “saved.” He was an Arthur Murray Dance Studio instructor in Miami. The Arthur Murray people were notorious in getting old, lonesome and emotionally dependent people to sign long term contracts at outargues rates. Not a few of the men were gigolos for rich old women. And maybe rich young women, too. And D James was successful there. Before Viagra. Anyone coming from that background is highly suspect. Moving easily from one scam into another is not a new phenomenon.

It’s my own estimate that 10% to 20% of all clerics of every stripe are atheists. Another equal number must surely be agnostic if they have half a brain. You cannot be normal if you go out every day to visit the sick as I assume any legitimate gospel preacher would do, and take notice that the harder you pray the more they die. There is no efficacy in prayer. Or GOD is totally whimsical! Little children, old people, homeless people. Pray and pray and surely you must accept that Voltaire had it right: “If there is a GOD, he takes no notice of human affairs.”

Voltaire was by the way, a rich Catholic who was frequently in trouble with the Roman papacy. A free thinker. Age of Enlightenment. Which meant then an anti-papist. French Catholics are not like American Catholics. They have put the popes down for centuries. Voltaire was able all his life to retain an ordained Catholic priest in his private employ and resident on his estate. Despite what a pope might say about him, Voltaire had all the masses he wanted and got absolution as needed. The French you know, even moved the papacy to Avignon. And Napoleon imprisoned the reigning pope. The French are not awed by Rome.

[edit on 2/3/2009 by donwhite]

Originally posted by huckfinn
reply to post by Thistled

 

You are ignoring my assertion that the British were thrown a bone and allowed to make a dignified exit after failing achieve Strategic goals.

No, they acheived their strategic goals. Re-capture and secure Basra, restore power and order, then train new army. (this is going off topic - I'm sorry moderators)

PS. Those were the words of your new commander, correct? Not the one that led you to Iraq, but the one who was elected to find a way out after Blair totally screwed it up for you.

Erm, Obama springs to mind and Guantanamo.

Lets get back on track eh?

reply to post by donwhite

Well, whether or not he bilked old ladies out of their money or was a gigolo in his youth is all speculation. (I don't see him doing that IMO.)
At any rate when I became a Christian, some people couldn't believe it.
I had a BAD reputation.

I used to live 30 miles above Miami, too.

You have never seen prayer work, but I have.
I once prayed for a lady on the way into church with a second or third degree burn on her hand. It had been excruciating for her. After I prayed for the Lord to take her pain, she looked at me astonished and said it was ALL gone.
Not to mention the times I prayed for my children when they were sick.
A lady at our church was healed of cancer by the prayers of the preacher and elders.
Me becoming a Christian is the utmost miracle in my life.
The pinnacle.

reply to post by Clearskies

You have never seen prayer work, but I have. I once prayed for a lady on the way into church with a second or third degree burn on her hand. It had been excruciating for her. After I prayed for the Lord to take her pain, she looked at me astonished and said it was ALL gone. Not to mention the times I prayed for my children when they were sick. A lady at our church was healed of cancer by the prayers of the preacher and elders. Me becoming a Christian is the utmost miracle in my life. The pinnacle.

I am happy that you are happy. I do wish that you will not be so happy that you will participate in “compulsory happiness” for people like me. Let us who are also happy without your notion of happiness, go our way. Unmolested. And keep you happy hands out of the public till.

reply to post by donwhite


I don't think many churches get money from the public till.
I don't know of any, really.

reply to post by Clearskies

I don't think many churches get money from the public till. I don't know of any, really.

It's called "Faith Based" and it was a fundamental tenant of the Republicans under Bush43. It's commonly associated with school vouchers. And charter schools. It will take 2-3 years of hard work to UNMIX the Bush43 efforts.



[edit on 2/3/2009 by donwhite]

reply to post by donwhite


Are there vouchers for my state?
I have a school already picked out!
I haven't heard of it in my area. Georgia.

reply to post by Clearskies


I don't know the answer to your question about Georgia. I imagine you could google GA public schools and find out. School vouchers are a serious effort by religionists to get public financing for their parochial teachings. A very worrisome secondary result of vouchers is the fragmenting of the already weak support for public schools.




[edit on 2/3/2009 by donwhite]

reply to post by donwhite

The way I see it, these vouchers would help children who are getting bored at school, because in some cases, 'no child left behind' keeps the smarter children doing the same work as the slow ones!
I can't afford Christian schools or charter schools as of yet.
I've been laid off since Feb. 08.
We really shouldn't have a choice?

How is it a drain on public schools?
They(public schools) get grants according to how many children go to them and many schools are overflowing with students, right?

I think the question is, are they actually followers of christ if they are doing those things? Are they doing what Christ says?

I think there is a difference between people who follow Christ, and people who do things in his name as a means of manipulation.

reply to post by Clearskies

The way I see it, these vouchers would help children who are getting bored at school, because in some cases, 'no child left behind' keeps the smarter children doing the same work as the slow ones! I can't afford Christian schools or charter schools as of yet. I've been laid off since Feb. 08. We really shouldn't have a choice? How is it a drain on public schools? They (public schools) get grants according to how many children go to them and many schools are overflowing with students, right?

You have raised the one or two important questions for which we as a society have not yet found a good answer. By a good answer I mean one that will be accepted even by those who may feel left out. For this discourse, I include vouchers and charter schools as both being two sides of one coin, representing the anti-public SECULAR school system.

People like me regard “no child left behind” as just one more teacher union busting tactic. Without digressing too far off topic I must mention that the NEA - predecessor to today’s teacher unions - and P-TAs are the TWO groups most responsible for the quality of schools that existed in the 1970s if not today.

Background. NEA - National Education Association. Flanked by state associations like my own KEA - the Kentucky Education Association. P-TA. Parent-Teacher Association. From the 1920s onward, these 2 groups championed better pay for teachers, better libraries, a broader curriculum as well as improved physical facilities.

Public education in America is older than our Constitution. It is the first such institution in the world! Universal publicly supported education. More than any other single achievement of government, it made the America of today possible.

The 1785 Northwest Ordinance set aside every 16th section of land for public education. Our Constitution took effect in 1789. Note: The Northwest Ordinance included land that is today’s Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin and most of Minnesota. End of History 101.

Priorities. There is not a government - federal, state or local - that does not have more needs than it has money resources to fully meet. This cannot help but mean that any money for educating our children that is diverted from the public system, is taken away from the public system. Surely everyone can agree this is a truism.

The un-addressed side of this issue is our traditional commitment to freedom for a parent to make many decisions on behalf of his or her children. Parental responsibility. Note I said “many” and not “all.” More and more the state has become involved in the life of a child.

Historically the state is the keeper of ALL its citizens. To murder a person was prosecuted not by that person or his descendants, but by the state for the breach of the king’s peace! As we learn more about psychology and the effects of environments on the growth and development of a child, the state has become more and more involved in raising the child.

We deny Jehovah’s Witnesses the right to deny a needy child the presumed benefits of a blood transfusion. Sincere Christian Scientists are disallowed to employ Church certified Practitioners as the exclusive treatment for a medically deemed needy child. The state says the rights of the child trumps the First Amendment freedom of religion for the parents. And so it is. The state says what are and when to apply those rights.

Maybe I have already said too much, but I wanted to lay out a context for saying that I accept the denial of tax funds to private citizens for their own use even in cases where the use is laudable. I really do wish we had enough money so that people who hold sincere questions over the desirability of the school system as it relates to their children. But if we let everyone who is unhappy OUT, there will be no one left to help improve the system.

Most public schools in metropolitan areas receive about $9,000 to $10,000 per year, per child. Some special cases like Washington DC get much more, around $15,000 per child. Rich communities like NYC and SF spend even more.

Non-public schools have always posed a threat not so much to the system but as to the value of a common system supported by all the citizens and introducing all the children to the wide range of variations in people’s backgrounds. Assimilation. The great American melting pot. Public schools.

If you have too many places where ALL of one kind to - as we did in the Catholic K12 school system prior to the 1960s - then our society remains fragmented. Today it is Protestants - usually of what we call fundamentalists - who crave the protection of a closed environment in which to educate - I say indoctrinate - their children.

E N D


[edit on 2/3/2009 by donwhite]

Government doesn't belong in the school systems at all. The entire reason schools are having these kinds of problems is because they are run by the government. The government isn't allowed to promote any religions, and public schools have been used as a way of getting rid of religion in schools rather than protecting peoples religious rights, all religions.

Schools should go back to being run by communities, out of government hands. Government just causes problems when it gets involved in areas it shouldn't. The teachers should have to answer to the parents, not the government.

Schools are still primarily to this day paid for by the communities. They mostly just get government oversight, which sucks.

The only way to escape this is to pay for private schools, which means you not only have to pay for the private schools, you still have to pay for the public schools. Vouchers are a joke, even if they did do what they said they were for.

That faith based ordeal was nothing but a very subtle way for the Gov to get their hands on in the Churchs....if you get their money you will do as they say or else ...Any Church that does this is in my opinion really stupid ..as they will now be slaves to the system (Even more so than they were) (Government control) the Gov can now withhold funds if the Church does not do what the Gov says .Talk about dangling a carrot and the Church peoples grabbed it hook line and sinker ..

That is all it is in my opinion just another way for the Gov to have control ...

reply to post by donwhite


I also went to elementary school in Atlantic Beach, right outside where you live.
I only went to public school until we moved to South Florida, (above Miami)
Where my parents thought I would be isolated from drugs. But there were as many drugs there! It wasn't a Christian school. I went for almost a full year.
Public schools can be very average to mind-numbingly stupid. Irrelevant, when it comes to real-world application.
I want more for my children.
We teach (or indoctrinate) our children about religion at home.
But, I know from my nieces and nephews who went to Christian schools, that there is more discipline, more caring from staff at most Christian schools.
Not catholic, BTW.
I don't want ANY nuns or priests around my children, thank you.

reply to post by Simplynoone


Well, I called the school board and local Christian school.
Our county voted for no vouchers and the Christian school isn't even sponsored by churches!
I guess THAT'S why they are so small!

YES..I was just thinking about that when I came across your post. Israel and Christians are talking about a "Greater Israel" all based on the BIBLE. GET RID OF IT!!!!

reply to post by Thistled


Generally I avoid Bible discussions like the plague, especially in mixed company, because someone always loses and everyone has an agenda, either for or against it and zealots on either side become "experts" and offer little other than opinion.

Having said that, let me throw in my "objective" opinion . While I am no "authority" on the subject I believe in God and Jesus. And as a matter of disclosure, I have not read the entire Bible.

To quote Leviticus alone is like taking a section of the Patriot Act and saying, "see this is a good thing, it's here to protect us from terrorists". Or taking HR 645 and saying, "you're crazy, the camps are there to protect us during a national emergency". It's only in reading and understanding the entire works that one is able to filter the true meanings and intentions.

I agree, there are lot's of things in Leviticus that make you wonder what, if anything it has to do with today's society. In fact, many sections of the Bible are that way. The same, however, could be said of the US Constitution and BOR, it was written 200+ yrs ago. You only need to recall the Bush, ".... just a piece of paper" reference to understand how polarizing the idea is.

For me, it's a matter of Faith (belief in what's written in the Bible), faith in knowing that I don't know everything. Faith in some "perfection" beyond what we can understand, but must strive to. Something that can only be learned by reading the "word". (my opinion of course)

To quote a line from the movie, The Contender. "What good are principles, if they're only good when it's convenient".

It's the same with the Bible, why throw away the entire Bible when sections conflict with your Current (myopic) views. How different would the world be today if the Ten Commandments were not in the Bible?

I wonder.

Great question btw.