The British have something to say to us Americans!

Fellow UK ATS members:

I can understand why many of you are against having any firearms at all, but that is mainly because of the reputation the media/government has given firearms.

Dunblane and Hungerford were terrible tragedies, but, ultimately I think they were probably preventable if the police had done their job of vetting properly. The vast majority of firearms license holders would never even contemplate harming anybody. After these two tragedies, guns were demonized by the media, and a public outcry was whipped up by the tabloids resulting in the banns that followed.

Someone said on another thread, pools kill more kids than gun accidents each year in the US, so are we going to ban pools too? Why is there no outcry about pool deaths - a kid is a kid isn't he/she? How are guns any different?

Someone wanting to execute a class full of kids could easily come up with just as effective ways of doing it if they were really intent on doing something like that even if no legal guns were available, not the least of which is acquiring an illegal gun, which is something anybody could do if they really wanted to.

Although many of you out there might not appreciate or understand guns very well, some of us do, and enjoy using them in a non-destructive way, essentially no different to something like archery, or even fencing. How would you feel if you were an Olympic swimmer and pools/swimming were banned?

And to all those who said there was no "gun culture" in the UK, that's not true. There certainly is! Otherwise why would we have police operations like "Trident" amongst others?

From what I remember before the bans, there was never really a (street) gun culture before that, but there did used to be a large, thriving and with very few exceptions law abiding shooting community. Here in the UK, it was usually quite low key and always friendly.

Most of it's members wouldn't look out of place in a church congregation in my experience, and being a member of a shooting range/club was not really that much different to being a member of any other serious sporting club/team except that the equipment had to be handled with with great caution and respect!

It's actually quite ironic, the people I met when I used to shoot were amongst the kindest, best natured and responsible people I have been fortunate enough to meet to this day... yet the general public associates them with murder/violence and killing (thanks to the media/government).

Not to belittle the tragedies of Dunblane and Hungerford, but the kids/people that died on those days were not the only victims...

Not all Brits support the gun ban, and not all of us are nuts!

reply to post by ludaChris


But the vast majority of criminals don't have guns!
Please don't think that all burglars, muggers, shop lifters, drug dealers have guns because that could not be further from the truth.
They don't.

And I assure you, I, and the majority of people I know are more than equipped and prepared to protect their own property in the event of catching a house burglar, without the need to resort to possessing a gun.

The UK is not the USA, what is right for you does not have to apply to us.

As for the US's right to bear arms, entirely up to you, nothing to do with any other country....it's just that we don't want or need the same right.
Pretty simple really!

reply to post by Freeborn


Thanks, Freeborn.

AND, for the Americans or Canadians or Aussies in the audience, I think that Freeborn was referring to a brand-name of a commonly known nail gun. Just about any DIY (for Americans, that means 'do it yourself') store...again, for Americans, a 'Home Depot' or even a Super K-Mart, or even a WalMart....or just your neighborhood Ace Hardware store....will likely sell a nail gun.

No permit needed, and it will fire a nail as neatly and cleanly as a handgun, but without the pesky gunpowder residue that usually ties you to the crime.

Of course....well, I won't continue, you can figure out the details on your own....

Being sarcastic, I am.....with just a hint of common sense thrown in. NOW, go have a scone and clotted cream, or just take the family to Brunch...and realize that life happens....

...whilst we contemplate an unavoidable, non-criminal accident that took the life of a 21-year-old pregnant woman, right here in the Washington, DC area. Tragic it is, but NO ONE was to blame....it is the twist of fate.

A woman, said pregnant woman, driving in her car on the Motor-Way (the Beltway, for Americans) was hit and killed by an errant wheel that came off of a truck under tow, on the opposite side of the highway. Purely random, and tragic in the extreme.

How can this tragic story POSSIBLY tie in to this subject?? It only does in as much as the story of life CANNOT be determined....not with the gun in your house, not with the seatbelt or airbags in your car....because IF fate is going to take you, then NONE OF THOSE things will matter.

Sounds a bit fatalistic, I imagine....but, think about it!

What appears to be a random event (the loss of a wheel by a truck under tow, on the other side of the HighWay) happens to bounce along and just manage to impact a vehicle that, if it had happened only seconds earlier, or later....or IF she had left her home or place of work a few seconds earlier, or later....this tragedy would not have happened.

Think about it! Split-second decisions....I left my keys, so I am now 15 seconds later than I would have been, could mean the difference between life and death.

BUT, these kind of thoughts can paralyze you, into inaction....and that's pointless.

Told you I'd come to the point....and this is it. A handgun, under a person's control, implies a certain amount of 'arrogance'....doesn't it?

There is a 'feeling' of power associated with having a weapon, especially if it is a weapon that no one expects you to wield.

THIS is basic Humanity 101....tribal in its nature.

WHEN I mentioned 'basic HUMANITY' I hope that everyone who reads this will understand that, in our core, we are still animals....despite the veneer of civilization that we delude ourselves with.

I mentioned 'tribal' in a paragraph above....that was on purpose. BECAUSE we Humans are still so used to the familiar (root word....'family') that we will resort to our basest instincts, to 'fight' --- whether it be for 'family', or territory....it is a basic instinct.

AND THAT is why gun sales, and ownership of guns, is so popular!!

It is NOT about personal protection!!! IT IS A HOBBY!!!!! One borne because of natural instincts, of course....but still....just a hobby.

Im a brit and I used to see American gun owners as a bunch of nutters
Now I realise Ive bin duped.
If you ban firearms then you remove the ability to defend yourself
But scum can still get guns threaten you with them and kill you
If they cant get a gun they will use a knife. Its all the same to them, they just need a weapon to threaten you with.
Also if your government becomes authoritarian then if you dont have firearms then you cant really resist them
Oh sure you can organise a march you can demonstrate but it wont make a difference to your government because you are no threat to them.
Also this talk about not being able to aim accurately is nonsense because if you own a gun you should be required to visit a range for an hour every week to improve your aim. If you dont your license and weapon should be removed
That will improve your marksmanship.
This is my first post as a member so please go easy on me
lotsa luv
Tony

reply to post by tonytone


Welcome, tonytone. Umm, trying to be gentle here....but even you said something about even if the assailiant doesn't have a gun, he or she could easily have a knife.

Think very, very carefully. A weapon such as a firearm is preferred since it is compact, easy to carry and conceal, and fairly easy to aim.

I've mentioned, already, the cross-bow as an alternative weapon-of-choice. Admittedly, not small, not compact nor easy to conceal....but just as deadly....the arrow, if on target, perhaps as bad as a bullet.

Yet, please keep reading, and post your thoughts.

In the breakdown of society (economic, social, or war), the speed at which order can be restored is directly proportional to your ability to get force multipliers into the hands of the good citizenry.

Jon

reply to post by weedwhacker


Thanks weedwhacker
I made a mistake in not reading the whole thread before posting and I get your point
I dont disagree with you, it is something I need to think about before saying any more.
I will get back to you.
Thankyou for your kind welcome

car deaths are accidents, pool deaths are accidents, cars are a form of transport not designed for killing people, pools are designed for swimming not killing people, guns on the other hand are designed for killing people, it is a stupid argument to use, wise up guys, i understand you are pissed at losing your rights, but the ownership of guns should be controlled, i dont expect you to understand this as it is so inground in you, when i walk down the road in england i worry about knives not guns, and you will all be saying "if you had a gun the man with the knife would run", if guns were legal, i would walk down the street worrying about guns, do you get it?

reply to post by weedwhacker


I have now read the whole thread and I agree with 99 percent of your argument but what if your government becomes totalitarian overnight like the government of our wonderfull Mr Brown?
How can you resist In a effective way?
Nailguns and crossbows wont be an answer to the S.A.S.
But then I suppose a bunch of amateurs with hand guns also wont be an answer to the S.A.S. either!
I now feel totally deflated and depressed!
I dont have an answer



Thank you for bursting my bubble


T

[edit on 27-1-2009 by tonytone]

"The British have something to say to us Americans"

Yes, yes...we do.

We have this to say - Britain isn't the USA

We don't do things your way here.



......and from the OP's video, we have this to say - Fox Hunting with a pack of dogs, rampaging across the countryside not giving a damn about peoples property, ripping apart peoples pets, invading gardens and public rights of way and then allowing a pack of dogs rip apart an animal that is half the size of one of them, after its been chased down over several miles and is ultimately exhausted - for "sport" is cruel.

reply to post by tonytone


delta force wouldnt be an answer to the S.A.S.

i believe our (english) respect of firearms through not owning them helps us to learn to use em proper (flames begin)

guns perpetuate the need for guns

reply to post by neformore


And what do you do with the fox? Serious question..

Eat it? Wear it? .. I imagine a mangled fox wouldn't taste nor look good....

Seems like an odd sport. But perhaps you Brits think our Deer/elk etc hunting is weird.

reply to post by RussianScientists


I'm a New Zealander. New Zealand was a former British colony and now part of the Commonwealth. We have very strict gun laws here but as per usual the criminals have no problem getting hold of them though. New Zealand has watched in disbelief and horror as Britain has gradually slid into a spineless big brother socialist state. New Zealand was on the verge as well, until we finally got rid of our lefty commie socialist Priminister.
Unlike the Pombs, we Kiwis only take so much sh...t before we snap.
Even though we have very strict gun control laws here, lots of people still own guns, mainly hunting rifles and even a few home made automatic weapons. If the government here ever over steps the mark and tries to go 1984 on us, they will pay dearly, and they know it.
NEVER give up your rights to own firearms U.S, as the old saying goes;
1 person with a gun can control 100 people without them.
It's too late for the British now, the thought police have turned most Pombs into whimpering limp politically correct wristed philosophers.

reply to post by Rockpuck


you cannot eat fox, it is born with mange and is dying from the day it was born which makes it poisonous to eat, new members of the hunt are blooded which involves wiping the foxes blood on them, nothing is done with the body it is just "sport", a very cruel way to cull, hence it was banned, we try to respect all life in england, obviously it isn't perfect but we do try.

reply to post by Rockpuck


p.s., if you eat it, you have my support but if it is just sport then you don't, life is life

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by badgerprints

 

badger, you've just proved my point!!

Number 1....I WOULD NEVER break into somebody's house. Of course, IF (in a concocted scenario) I DID break into a Policeman's house, well OF COURSE he'd defend his FAMILY and property!!!! AND, I would get what I deserved, although I'd expect that a trained Peace Officer would know how to shoot to maim first, unless his life was in immediate danger.

Number 2.... a properly informed burglar would NOT target a Peace Officer's home. SO, your example is moot.

Number 3.... by definition, a 'burglary' is a crime that occurs in a residence or business when there are no victims present. A 'robbery', by definition, is a crime upon a person or persons.

Number 4... a Peace Officer, I must repeat, had received EXTENSIVE training. OF COURSE, in the event of a home incursion, that Peace Officer will respond with deadly force, or force as appropriate. BUT that is a result of years of training! How many casual gun owners can claim the same, hmmmm???

Shoot to maim!??? Police Officers are trained the same way most gun owners are taught by their fathers, at least in this respect: If you pull your weapon on a person, you had better be aiming to kill that person! CENTER BODY MASS! You dont shoot to wound, you shoot to kill, and this is why: If your defending yourself from deadly force, you may only have one shot at the criminal before he takes your life! Do you want to aim for a small target like an arm or leg, and risk missing? NO! CENTER BODY MASS! Only pull a gun if you need to kill someone, not scare someone or wound someone!

As an ex-Sheriffs Deputy, I have a little bit of knowledge here. This is a great thread, star and flag!

And by the way, are you for real weedsmok.. I mean wacker??? You seriously speak as though you have absolutely no idea what your talking about on this subject! Why dont you go post on the light bulb thread and let the adults talk for a while!

Well, that is exactly what happens when LIBERALS take over. They slowly take away your rights..... The cops over there don't even carry guns! That is crazy, how the hell can they protect themselves? So now they are taking away more and more rights. It is called socialism and it is what will happen here with obama in office. See, people get what they ask for and now they are regretting it. I hope this doesn't happen here, but it probably will.

reply to post by Victoria 1


Liberals?
Socialists?
Get real...Brown, like Blair before him, can in no way be described as a Liberal or a Socialist.

The British Police don't carry guns all the time simply because they don't have to.
What is hard to understand about that?

Do what you want in the USA, your society is completely different to our's.
The practice of carrying arms is engrained.
That is not the case here, it's like comparing apples to pears!

Originally posted by Wotan
99% of the UK public has never owned a firearm of any kind and are simply not interested in owning one either.

Where are you getting your facts from. They seem very bizarre. I know many who have had firearms confiscated as laws have changed. I know many others who have no qualms about illegally keeping firearms because they are scared of what could happen and others still that wish they had access to that level of self-defence.

Originally posted by SASAlbertino
We dont have a constitution bruv, never have, the closest thing we have is the Magna Carta, and how many people in the UK have ever heard of that?

Heard of it don't really know what its about and I am one of the more informed ones where I am.

Originally posted by Thistled
I want to add, this is ALL completely wrong.
Away from city centres, there are no cameras. City centre crime by young hoodlums is down thanks to the cameras. A vast number of people in the UK are pleased to see the CCTV, it HAS made and is MAKING our communties safer.

1984 - George Orwell? Nah, I'd be more concerned with all our internet usage as opposed to cameras watching us.

If you have nothing to hide, what's the problem?

How can you say this. Crime in cities is on a rise and those caught on camera are rarely caught physically or brought to justice. Have you seen the RC airborne CCTV the police have now (I have unfortunately lost the link with time). I have nothing to hide but with the rate at which this government cracks down on what is allowed I may soon and that is one of the things I fear.