The British have something to say to us Americans!

reply to post by Cauch1


Apologies, for the sarcasm and patronising tone in my last post there - no malice intended there.

This post has slightly gone awry and some may even say it's gone off topic, but it hasn't and here's why. . .
It seems to me that by the government keeping our police officers under manned and unequipped it's sending out the wrong signals to the crime world. They cannot be touched because it is they who have the guns. . . Therefore as crime rises, and it is especially now the credit crisis is biting, the government will be able to statistically show that the populace is quickly becoming hostile to each other and authority and will therefore, perhaps, send in the armed forces to quell discord and animosity in the larger cities and townships. Maybe it will then enforce Orwellian like regulations on us? before you know it we've walked into the cell and have, by our own inaction and refusal to stand up and fight, slammed the door behind us.
Am I the only one who watches the news at night, the crime-the credit crunch etc, and see's that's all part of some bigger plan? I hope not. . .

reply to post by ConservativeJack


i shall make an assumption that you are american and packing a piece, what have you done to stop the regime in your country "walking all over" you, just coz you can have a gun makes no difference

Originally posted by THELONIO
reply to post by ConservativeJack

 

i shall make an assumption that you are american and packing a piece, what have you done to stop the regime in your country "walking all over" you, just coz you can have a gun makes no difference

honestly partner

the day the government comes to take my piece

is the day I am no longer an American.

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS

It's too late for the British now, the thought police have turned most Pombs into whimpering limp politically correct wristed philosophers.

Oh no you did NOT just insult the noble art of philosophy that way.

Please, a true philosopher is the opposite of politically correct and limp wristed. There just arent many true philosophers. A philosopher should be;

www.mdx.ac.uk...

#487] [Socrates] And must not that be a blameless study which he only can pursue who has the gift of a good memory, and is quick to learn - noble, gracious, the friend of truth, justice, courage, temperance, who are his kindred?

[Glaucon] The god of jealousy himself, he said, could find no fault with such a study.

Most of those who wax philosophic should not justly be called that.

Socrates said of this perception that philosophy and philosophers are "useless" in the Republic;

www.mdx.ac.uk...

For these reasons, and among men like these, philosophy, the noblest pursuit of all, is not likely to be much esteemed by those of the opposite faction; not that the greatest and most lasting injury is done to her by her opponents, but by her own professing followers, the same of whom you suppose the accuser to say that the greater number of them are arrant rogues, and the best are useless; in which opinion I agreed.

Most of those who claim to be philosophers are poseurs. Sophists at best.

Socrates' unflinching bravery in battle and at his own death upon his conviction for "corrupting the youth of Athens" is as far from limp wristed as you can get, and corrupting the youth of Athens by making them think for themselves was clearly NOT politically correct.

There are philosophers who own guns. And, enjoy target shooting. And who care enough about the Constitution to defend it.

You know as a Brit I've got to laugh at the OP. Handguns were banned in the UK after the Dunblane Massacre in 1996, Fox Hunting has been banned since 2005 so how olds the actual story that's been posted? This isn't news to the UK readers of this forum and if it's the only time most of the US readers have seen it what have you been doing the last 13 years or so? Don't you watch the news or read the papers, irrespective of how propagandist they may seem they must have news from overseas. I don't mean to offend any Americans but it's rather old news is all I'm saying and by reading some of the replies it would appear that most of you have never heard or seen any of what's been going on. Which is a shame really.

reply to post by ConservativeJack


go and stop them walking all over you with this onethread


by the way, when there are 20 armed police or swat pointing their weapons at you and you have soiled yourself remember what you said as you hand over your guns

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


I guess I've all but lost faith in most MSM broadcasting, purely because it's too difficult to contemplate just how far the trail that leads us to where the spin or propaganda begins. I personally find BBC news insulting, but only as a measure of how I happen to question and digest the material. The NLP used in news broadcasting is quite hysterically amusing though, and you might notice that the pitch, tone and tempo of a typical news-reader is the same as every other - as if it's a template of visual and aural stimuli designed to draw attention. OK, granted, it's obviously clever because it clearly works.

These days it's hard to find any decent journalism, and as a result I happen to favour The Times because it's sometimes (and only sometimes) is a little more ''honest'' with it's language....even if it does have a subte pompus veneer!

reply to post by THELONIO



Are all car deaths accidents? Can a car not be used to kill someone or even multiple people in one go?

A car may not be designed for killing, but that doesn't mean it cant be used for that purpose. What does it matter if something is designed to do something or not? The point is it either does or it does not. Is a gun inherently evil just because it can kill? There have been some horrendous murders committed with hammers - is a hammer inherently evil? Should they be banned?

A arrow fired from a bow was designed to kill. Should we ban archery? My dad is kept alive by a poison that was "designed" to kill - he has a heat problem. Are you suggesting that we should ban the poison that keeps him alive?

What I'm trying to say, is that, guns, and life in general is not so "black and white". Firearms can be used for good as well as evil purposes. You obviously have never encountered guns in a safe and controlled environment, and therefore, you can't see the positive side of them. I'm trying to explain it to you, but unless you encounter it yourself, how can you know? All you have is the media demonized gun image in your head. It's not that simple.

You said the ownership of guns should be controlled, and I agree with that. No one wants to see guns in the hands of idiots, but they should not be banned either!

Before the gun bans, tens of thousands of people in the UK owned and kept firearms, including myself. There was no street gun culture then whatsoever! No one feared walking on the street and being shot. Your argument that people would feel safer on the streets with legally held firearms being banned is obviously flawed given the above. Guns are no more deadly than they were back then - why was there not carnage on the streets back then?

Going back to pools, they may not be designed to kill, but they do. Forget about the 'design' aspect since it is totally irrelevant. Are the lives of thousands of kids killed by pools over many decades worth the fun and enjoyment kids usually derive from them?

If you look at this issue in an objective way, and avoid the skewed perception of firearms that been pushed on the public for many years now, you'll see that neither extreme is a good thing, and a balanced approach to gun ownership is the most sensible choice.

In some parts of the UK today, you'd be naieve to walk down a street and not even contemplate the possibillity that you might be stabbed or shot, but all these weapons are illegal. Legitimate firearms license holders have no reason or inclination to go out and use their firearms to harm, intimidate or kill. Their firearms are registered with the police, and doing so would result in the guns being confiscated and the license revoked. No firearms license holder wants that!

If you fear sportsmen that are firearms owners, then you should also fear sportsmen with javelins, discuses, bows/arrows, etc... you never know there could be an unstable Olympic athlete with one of these 'weapons' waiting to ambush you round the next corner!

Originally posted by weedwhacker
Being sarcastic, I am.....with just a hint of common sense thrown in. NOW, go have a scone and clotted cream, or just take the family to Brunch...and realize that life happens....

I like common sense. A lot. So I have a question. How does this;

Originally posted by weedwhacker

How can this tragic story POSSIBLY tie in to this subject?? It only does in as much as the story of life CANNOT be determined....not with the gun in your house, not with the seatbelt or airbags in your car....because IF fate is going to take you, then NONE OF THOSE things will matter.

Sounds a bit fatalistic, I imagine....but, think about it!

Support banning guns? If you apply the same logic to gun crime, that you cannot control your fate, then guns should NOT be banned. Or, perhaps you are arguing that we should also ban wheels and cars and anything else that can kill a person?

Originally posted by weedwhacker
Told you I'd come to the point....and this is it. A handgun, under a person's control, implies a certain amount of 'arrogance'....doesn't it?

No. It doesnt. Anymore than a car under someones control implies arrogance. I can know that if it is my day to die, then I will die whether I have a gun or not and be fine with that. I do not believe that gun ownership is my "get out of death free" card. I am quite certain I will die. Odds are far higher that my car or someone elses car will kill me than the odds I will be killed by my gun or the gun of someone else.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
THIS is basic Humanity 101....tribal in its nature.

THIS is basic Humanity 101..illogical at its core. One can construct a grand argument for anything, but can one then apply that same logic to ones own prized and cherished beliefs? Usually not.

Originally posted by THELONIO
reply to post by ConservativeJack

 

go and stop them walking all over you with this onethread


by the way, when there are 20 armed police or swat pointing their weapons at you and you have soiled yourself remember what you said as you hand over your guns

what?

lmao

some imagination you have that junior. ... ...

you in 10th or 12th grade?

reply to post by C.H.U.D.


all of the american high school massacre were done with legally owned weapons, how many deaths were caused by intentional running people over, guns are made to kill , period, look at the figures of gun related deaths they speak for themselves. it is so stoopid to compare a swimming pool with a gun, and a car, how can you do that it is just ridiculous, those deaths are 99.999999 accidental, if you shoot someone with a gun and kill them it is not accidental, i cant believe i am even having to write this, and i suppose that you would be competent enough to carry a gun? you cant even tell the difference between a swimming pool and a firearm

reply to post by ConservativeJack


one day you might be able to understand what it is like to live in a society without the fear that everyone around you is carrying a gun, how do you cope when you go on holiday outside of america, you cant take it with you, to wake up in the morning knowing that some 41 people wouldnt die that day through gun related homicide or accident, yep 41 per day, 82 per day if you include gun related suicide, you watch your fellow americans die just so that you can retain the right to own a gun, it is you that i fear is still at school, it is sad that you will never understand this, enjoy your weekend dressing up as a soldier, with your mullet blowing in the wind, no offence intended

Originally posted by BAZ752
Let me get something straight here, I pointed out - as ABOVE, take a look, no, in fact i'll quote it again: ''I'm in no way conceding that crime (to the extent we're discussing here) doesn't happen outside of highly urban areas, but it IS rare.''

And I'm pointing out that in a very rural area with a very low population crime is still common. If we had guns to protect our property then I highly doubt that the criminals would act so boldly and so often.

Originally posted by Thistled

Remove the firearms, you improve probability of survival.

I hate to be the one to break this to you, but your probability of survival is zero.


No matter what you ban, or how many cameras you install, or laws you pass. You really are going to die. Of something. Boredom, in some places perhaps, but you will die none the less. The question is, how do you want to spend the time you have until you no longer live? Afraid of everything, constantly banning this and that, padding the bars of your cage? Or with liberty? The question is not will you die, but how do you want to live?

Freedom isnt a guarantee of safety. But it makes for a more interesting existence while you are here. Why do you think people like to walk in the wilderness? To skydive? Ski? Swim in the ocean? Swing on a swingset? There is something amazing about living life knowing that anything can happen, and getting out there and living it anyway.

The bird in a gilded cage, eating Purina Bird Chow, specially formulated to meet all its nutritional needs and playing with its little bell looking at the same damn walls every day of its life is going to die. The wild bird flying around eating crumbs out of the parking lot, singing to the sky, crapping where it wants is going to die too. The question is, which is the better life?

Originally posted by BAZ752
reply to post by Cauch1

 

Apologies, for the sarcasm and patronising tone in my last post there - no malice intended there.

Alright its cool. I tend to defend my point of view tooth and nail until someone makes me doubt. I understand that people get angry.

Originally posted by THELONIO
reply to post by ConservativeJack

 

one day you might be able to understand what it is like to live in a society without the fear that everyone around you is carrying a gun, how do you cope when you go on holiday outside of america, you cant take it with you, to wake up in the morning knowing that some 41 people wouldnt die that day through gun related homicide or accident, yep 41 per day, 82 per day if you include gun related suicide, you watch your fellow americans die just so that you can retain the right to own a gun, it is you that i fear is still at school, it is sad that you will never understand this, enjoy your weekend dressing up as a soldier, with your mullet blowing in the wind, no offence intended

America is no Country for Old Men

And certainly not a place for the weak and fragile.

reply to post by THELONIO


You've completely missed the point again.

First of all, you can't compare ownership of firearms in the US to here. No sane UK person wants US gun laws. In most cases, obtaining a legal firearm in the US is an order of magnitude easier than it is/was over here. No one is saying it should be that easy.

Carrying a firearm in public in the UK has always been illegal, so no, I would NEVER carry a gun as you suggested.

It's called an analogy... I'm more than capable of telling the difference between a gun and a swimming pool.

The real question here, is are you capable of confronting all your preconceptions, and looking at this issue objectively?

look at the figures of gun related deaths they speak for themselves

Show me the UK figures for gun related deaths before the the banns then!
Don't even think of posting US statistics, since we are two different cultures with completely different sets of laws. As I said before, I am not proposing that we adopt US gun laws.

how many deaths were caused by intentional running people over

Plenty! Do you not watch the news? I remember at least two cases that made the news last year.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
The question is, how do you want to spend the time you have until you no longer live? Afraid of everything, constantly banning this and that, padding the bars of your cage? Or with liberty? The question is not will you die, but how do you want to live?

Freedom isnt a guarantee of safety. But it makes for a more interesting existence while you are here. Why do you think people like to walk in the wilderness? To skydive? Ski? Swim in the ocean? Swing on a swingset? There is something amazing about living life knowing that anything can happen, and getting out there and living it anyway.

The bird in a gilded cage, eating Purina Bird Chow, specially formulated to meet all its nutritional needs and playing with its little bell looking at the same damn walls every day of its life is going to die. The wild bird flying around eating crumbs out of the parking lot, singing to the sky, crapping where it wants is going to die too. The question is, which is the better life?

So true. Its better to take a few risks and be free and enjoy life than to take no risks and lead a life which does not provide you with any fullfillment.

Originally posted by THELONIO
reply to post by ConservativeJack

 

one day you might be able to understand what it is like to live in a society without the fear that everyone around you is carrying a gun, how do you cope when you go on holiday outside of america, you cant take it with you, to wake up in the morning knowing that some 41 people wouldnt die that day through gun related homicide or accident, yep 41 per day, 82 per day if you include gun related suicide, you watch your fellow americans die just so that you can retain the right to own a gun, it is you that i fear is still at school, it is sad that you will never understand this, enjoy your weekend dressing up as a soldier, with your mullet blowing in the wind, no offence intended

Wow we really are being mature here. "Go play soldier" what is wrong with you? The guy makes a valid point. I live in a society where firearms are illegal I don't feel especially safe. I went to America and didn't feel that I was in any more danger. In fact it seemed to me to be if anything a nicer and safer place than the UK.