Baroness Tonge: "Israel stands accused of war crimes witnessed by the whole world"

reply to post by psyko45


Last time I checked Hamas were the democratically elected leaders of the Palestinian people, which were wanted in power to get rid of the PLO? If I was caged up for months with sanctions on necessities...I would be sending a few rockets your way too.

reply to post by sueloujo


So the people of Palestine got what they wanted. They choose to vote for a group that promised them war, and that is what they got. Why should we feel s sorry for them? I think you summed up exactly how most people around the world feel about the situation.

reply to post by sueloujo


I think I would have voted for someone with more than just a few rockets to send. Hamas' platform was getting rid of the jews...maybe the people of palestien should have done the math.

reply to post by Gorman91


I'm discussing Israel and the prolonged war and suffering that came with them. This is 60 years of war by the European Jews all of which have no legal claim to anything in the region, even by genetics they have no link to the land.

The Brits had a big part to play in it and i don't deny that, but atleast they withdrew and left. The European Jews are still there and have not stopped the bloodshed, the war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by sueloujo

 

So the people of Palestine got what they wanted. They choose to vote for a group that promised them war, and that is what they got. Why should we feel s sorry for them? I think you summed up exactly how most people around the world feel about the situation.

They voted for a group that promised to resist the occupation and defend them from the European Jews who stole their land and destroyed their homes, imprisoned them behind walls, starved them, and killed their families. There is a distinct difference.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Ownification

 

With all that oil, the Muslim nations of the Middle East have failed to build up any industry, they have nothing to offer to the world but the oil that they were lucky enough to have under their nations. That oil was in fact developed by the U.S., and other Western nations, and gave enourmous wealth to those Muslim nations, but they have only turned an bitten the hand that fed them.

OK you don't know what I was talking about. I merely stated the fact that GAZA is under siege not by Arabs but by the Zionist regime.

Muslims have nothing to offer because of the corrupt dictators who control their land which happen to be supported by the Western Powers, how is that for a conspiracy.

Let's not forget that with education comes power, it is only common sense for todays power to keep in dark the previouse powers so that they may not have another powerfull enemy to fight, hence Iran. Why is it that the West has isolated Iran? Iran is pursuing knowledge and with knowledge comes power, America can't have that.

Iran is already a super power in it's own region, if it is not bombarded it will surely expand from regional to global.

When the oil is gone, the oil dependent nations of the Middle East, with their huge populations, and no developed industry or technology are going to starve, and become very desperate people. They will have no one to blame but Themselves. They have squandered their opportunity.

Actually before that happens, the world will be dependant on them hence dubai is already the business centre of the world. They can pursue thousands of other options which can be seen as far as the eye can see.

At least Israel is technologically advanced, and has something to offer the world. The smart people in the Middle East probably already see that Israel could become their saving grace.

Israel is technologically advanced because the superpower of the world wants it to be, hence all the technology which Israel obtained was from America, all the weapon, all the knowledge.

Originally posted by psyko45
reply to post by Ownification

 

FIrst sir or mam I am not your friend. That manner of adressment is an uneducated attempt to condescend. Thats ok I suppose. You obviously believe propoganda...after all thats what its for. To herd the masses. You are a weapon of the war on the infidel....Hamas..last time I checked was a terrorist organization. All of the lol's...another attempt at insult...It seems that is common when one has no other ammunition...just an unfounded opinion.

What makes you think I want to be your friend? It's like talking to a stranger and you call him your friend, it's regarder as good manners but maybe not in the geekdom.

Please don't call me uneducated it hurts my feelings

Hamas is regarded as terrorist organization by one group of people and America/Israel is regarde as terrorist organization by another group of people.

It is funny how you did not reply to my response at all, instead throwing insults you came down to my level, it shows your character. You are either still too young or you are old but havn't had your puberty yet. Not an insult but just expressing my opinion.

ownification, you misuse the term siege! Israel hasn't put Gaza under siege!

Just the opposite! They built a wall to keep the Gazans out of Israel, and besides, there is another border with Egypt.

Is Egypt also putting Gaza under siege?

And bombing Hamas, safe houses, munitions storage, tunnels, and rocket caches is not exactly a siege, is it?

reply to post by Ownification


The Jewish people have been living in Israel for thousands of years, they have every right to control their own country. Islam is the aggressor and the usurper. If it was just Israel, you might have a point, but Islam creates problems where ever they go, it they aren't torturing and killing business people in India, they are intentionally blowing up and burning down schools filled with children in Russia, or practicing genocide in Africa.

Corrupt dictators have controlled the nations of Islam since they wree conquered by Muslims. This was already going on before the West ever got involved. Maybe if they would quit blaming the West for the problems of Islamic nations, and started looking at their real problems, mayb those problems might eventually be solved.

Dubai's dreams of becoming the center of World banking will never happen. You have to produce something of some quality to succeed, besides banking. The only thing making Dubai successful at banking is the oil revenue, and once the oil is gone, the banking system they are trying to build will dry up as well.

If Iran has any technological prowess, please tell us where it is. What areas are Iran taking over in the technology world? What products are they starting to produce?

The Jewish people who have moved to Israel since it became an independent nation again brought their tech prowess with them, and have been known for their abilities in science for a long time now. Ever hear of Einstein? How about Oppenhiemer? You might want to look up those guys and see what they contributed to science and technology, and weapons technology.

reply to post by Founding


1)The UN have been in Darfur since 2006.People are helping.Just because you don't see it in the MSM on a regular basis doesn't mean it isn't happening.

2)As awful as the conflict in Darfur is,it doesn't run the risk of starting a world war.Conflict in the Middle East has that ppssibility,therefore it will always be a prority.

3)To people like you who constantly point out other conflicts when war crimes of Israel are mentioned,many are aware that this is a well known deflection technique used by Zionists.It is feeble,at best,and is used by those who don't even realize that such an argument doesn't make Israel look innocent.It makes it look like it is,guilty.


[edit on 31-1-2009 by DantesLost]

reply to post by Ownification


No, sir or mam, aderssing a staranger as "my friend" is not considered good manners anywhere, geekdom or otherwise. "Sir or Mam", Mr. or Mrs., Ms. All propper. Adressing a stranger as "my friend" just sounds uppity and in any type of serious buisness would cause you to be disreguarded and thought of as low budget.

I didnt "call" you uneducated. Simply stated that manner of adressment was a display of lack of education...speciffically in manners.

Please review definition of "terrorist". It is black and white. One either is or isnt a terrorist. Be honest with yourself when reviewing the definition. No need for further debate on this subject.

Yor response didnt deserve a reply, because it only contained emotion, opinion and insult. I didnt respond with insult, only fact based on all correspondance.

An example of an insult would be " Are you really as genetically deficient as you sound? You really sympathyze with terrorists? Or are you really just trying to win the affection of an anti-semite X-con named slippyfist?"

reply to post by poet1b

The Jewish people have been living in Israel for thousands of years, they have every right to control their own country. Islam is the aggressor and the usurper. If it was just Israel, you might have a point, but Islam creates problems where ever they go

Christians were living there since Christianity began. Before the Jews it was Canaan land of the Philistines. Islam aside, there were Christians living in Palestine too. What about them? This isn't just a muslim/jew conflict. The Christians who were forced out by the Jews are equally as pissed. But everyone seems to forget about us.

reply to post by DantesLost


1) The UN is not enough. Any person with a brain can tell you that their presence does not solve anything. Darfur is still one of the worst modern genocides to date with or without the UN.

2) I have yet to see a war started. It is pretty clear the the people of Gaza are only used as political puppets by the surrounding Arab regimes.

3) This is how I know you have hit rock bottom. First, Darfur happened before Israel went into Gaza. Second, 400,000 people killed and TWO MILLION displaced is not a deflection but a massacre. Third, how does an ad hominem attack prove anything?


You remind me of the Muslim creationists I watch on youtube. Repeat and repeat and repeat then lie.

reply to post by Founding

The UN is not enough.

Never said it was.
But people like you,who immediatly mention Darfur after someone mentions Israel war crimes,make it seem as if nothing at all is being done in Darfur.When that just isn't true..And if something can be done there,something can be done about the actions of Israel.

I have yet to see a war started.

Never said that either.
I said conflict in the Middle East had the potential to start a world war.This is not so with Darfur.

Darfur happened before Israel went into Gaza. Second, 400,000 people killed and TWO MILLION displaced is not a deflection but a massacre. Third, how does an ad hominem attack prove anything?

The Darfur conflict started in 2003.Israel went into Gaza in the 1940's then again in the 1960's,when Israel 'rule' became permanent for decades.

And of course the conflict in Darfur is a massacre.That doesn't change the fact that you,and others,are using it to deflect attention from Israel.

And why always Darfur?
Why not the humanitarian catastrophes that are happening in countries such as Somalia,Sri Lanka,Ethiopia or Myanmar?


Here's an article you should read.

I write as someone who served loyally in the Israeli army in the mid-1960s and who has never questioned the legitimacy of the state of Israel within its pre-1967 borders. What I utterly reject is the Zionist colonial project beyond the Green Line. The Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip in the aftermath of the June 1967 war had very little to do with security and everything to do with territorial expansionism. The aim was to establish Greater Israel through permanent political, economic and military control over the Palestinian territories. And the result has been one of the most prolonged and brutal military occupations of modern times.

Four decades of Israeli control did incalculable damage to the economy of the Gaza Strip. With a large population of 1948 refugees crammed into a tiny strip of land, with no infrastructure or natural resources, Gaza's prospects were never bright. Gaza, however, is not simply a case of economic under-development but a uniquely cruel case of deliberate de-development. To use the Biblical phrase, Israel turned the people of Gaza into the hewers of wood and the drawers of water, into a source of cheap labour and a captive market for Israeli goods. The development of local industry was actively impeded so as to make it impossible for the Palestinians to end their subordination to Israel and to establish the economic underpinnings essential for real political independence.

www.guardian.co.uk...

reply to post by DantesLost


Exactly like the Muslim creationists on youtube.

Do you know how to take a definite stance or make a rational argument. What you are doing is called Strawman. Pretty standard form of argument for the less intelligent. If anyone compares my response to your post it should be clear.

I will repeat this one last time. Darfur is not the only humanitarian crisis but there is a reason why I bring it up. Darfur is a perfect example of hypocrisy. Muslims/Arabs all over the world protest and scream for the people of Gaza. I have asked my self is it about the Jews or the Arabs of Gaza. Then I look at Darfur. Two million people displaced and four hundred thousand dead. Where are the protests? Where are the riots? Where are the Prime Ministers walking off stage? Where are the humanitarians? Sudan is an Arab run regime. The people of Darfur are Africans. We know who the land belongs to. But the world is silent. Is life in Gaza more important than life in Darfur. Hell no. You cannot avoid these questions forever. I found the truth and so will other people. Good day.

reply to post by Founding


You call me a Muslim like its an insult.

One thing we can agree on is that no one cares when it comes to the contries of Africa.

But the difference with Darfur and Israel is that the Darfur conflict is a civil war.The Israeli conflict is to do with the invasion and oppression of neighbouring land.

And as sad as it is,people show more interest when one country invades/attacks another,than they do about a country that attacks itself.

And people should only care about Darfur because it is in an Arab country? Prejudiced much.

I wonder how long people like you can deflect others away from Israels actions.I wonder how long you will keep turning a blind eye to what their government has done.I also wonder what you are doing to help the people of Darfur.It seems that conflict has one use:to manipulate people.Be honest,you actually don't give a damn about Darfur.To you its just a tool.

Originally posted by dooper
ownification, you misuse the term siege! Israel hasn't put Gaza under siege!

Just the opposite! They built a wall to keep the Gazans out of Israel, and besides, there is another border with Egypt.

Is Egypt also putting Gaza under siege?

And bombing Hamas, safe houses, munitions storage, tunnels, and rocket caches is not exactly a siege, is it?

I don't have to argue much about this, it is plain and clear.

the Israelis have imposed an air, land and sea blockade since 2007

Egypt has a dictator who is backed by the west who tortures imprisons and kills it's own people to stay in power. We can't expect much from Mubarak, he does what the west commands it to do, similar to the Saudi kings.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Ownification

 

The Jewish people have been living in Israel for thousands of years, they have every right to control their own country. Islam is the aggressor and the usurper. If it was just Israel, you might have a point, but Islam creates problems where ever they go, it they aren't torturing and killing business people in India, they are intentionally blowing up and burning down schools filled with children in Russia, or practicing genocide in Africa.

As my fellow ATS member said, before the Jews someone else lived there. And for your point that Islam is the aggressor because some Muslims do crazy things, well can I claim the same for the West? Can I claim that the Western society is the aggressor because some Westerners are molesting childeren, raping their own women, and throwing tons of bombs and missiles on soverien states and starting proxy wars which results in to genocide which in result, more torture and more rape in other people's lands?

Corrupt dictators have controlled the nations of Islam since they wree conquered by Muslims. This was already going on before the West ever got involved. Maybe if they would quit blaming the West for the problems of Islamic nations, and started looking at their real problems, mayb those problems might eventually be solved.

No that is not true, if you look at the past, Muslims obtained huge knowledge and spread it accross the world, hey 0 was invented by Muslims, without 0 me and you wouldn't be havn't this discussion on Internet, hopefully you understand. Do some research on the Islamic Golden Age, you will find a huge amount of information regarding "the Muslim contribution to building the foundation of Modern Civilisations". Your lack of research topples your cridibility in this whole subject.

For your curiosity:
en.wikipedia.org...

Dubai's dreams of becoming the center of World banking will never happen. You have to produce something of some quality to succeed, besides banking. The only thing making Dubai successful at banking is the oil revenue, and once the oil is gone, the banking system they are trying to build will dry up as well.

No not really, no point discussing this with an ignorant. Please learn about the banking system than we can continue that discussion. And as I said previousely, their are many other options they can pursue, they are already investing in other companies around the world.

If Iran has any technological prowess, please tell us where it is. What areas are Iran taking over in the technology world? What products are they starting to produce?

Once again you are confusing yourself, I didn't mention it before but no point not mentioning it now. See in order for an individual or a group of people to advance in knowledge and technology, they need to have access to previousely discovered knowledge which Iran is being denied from. If America did not have previouse knowlege which was discovered by Muslims, it would certainly not have been so advanced in it's technological discoveries today. Iran is starting from scratch, without having awareness of already discovered knowledge which they need to experiment with and discover which takes time, and it has taken time.

scientific freedom and innovation were vital keys to progress.

Even with all the pressure, threats and isolation Iranians still manage:

Tofy Mussivand invented the first artificial heart and afterwards developed it further.

The Jewish people who have moved to Israel since it became an independent nation again brought their tech prowess with them, and have been known for their abilities in science for a long time now. Ever hear of Einstein? How about Oppenhiemer? You might want to look up those guys and see what they contributed to science and technology, and weapons technology.

Confused again? Einstein was born in Germany, any intellegent individual would tell you that for him to be a Jew wouldn't affect his intellegence much. He happen to be born in a Jewish family, who does that argument remind you of? Bingo, they happen to have Petrol under their land, not much of a difference. The happen argument is classic yet some idiots still give up against its might, not knowing the intentions behind it, classic. Your turn

[edit on 042828p://28b2 by Ownification]

Originally posted by psyko45
reply to post by Ownification

 

No, sir or mam, aderssing a staranger as "my friend" is not considered good manners anywhere, geekdom or otherwise. "Sir or Mam", Mr. or Mrs., Ms. All propper. Adressing a stranger as "my friend" just sounds uppity and in any type of serious buisness would cause you to be disreguarded and thought of as low budget.

umm I don't know which reality you are living in but this is a forum, we are not discussing this issue in the United Nations Headquarters sorry for the laugh but seriousely.

I didnt "call" you uneducated. Simply stated that manner of adressment was a display of lack of education...speciffically in manners.

If we were discussing this issue in the Unitec Nations Headquarters than surely I wouldn't speak in relax manners hope you understand, this whole conversation is making me laugh, no disrespect.

Please review definition of "terrorist". It is black and white. One either is or isnt a terrorist. Be honest with yourself when reviewing the definition. No need for further debate on this subject.

Don't mind if I do:

A 2003 study by the US Army quoted a source that counted 109 definitions of terrorism that covered a total of 22 different definitional elements.[2] Record continues "Terrorism expert Walter Laqueur also has counted over 100 definitions and concludes that the 'only general characteristic generally agreed upon is that terrorism involves violence and the threat of violence.'

Now I'm going to act like a child in a professional manner, 'yaaay I win'.

Yor response didnt deserve a reply, because it only contained emotion, opinion and insult. I didnt respond with insult, only fact based on all correspondance.

Here is the problem, you did not respond to my facts based on all correspondance but only responded to me being Childish. The worst thing about it is that you also acted Childish which goes to show your character, it goes to show how you can be manipulated so easily.

An example of an insult would be " Are you really as genetically deficient as you sound? You really sympathyze with terrorists? Or are you really just trying to win the affection of an anti-semite X-con named slippyfist?"

So you insulted me without insulting me, wow you got potential, only if you don't fall in to manipulation.

reply to post by psyko45


My friend, I would like to draw your attention to your OTT behaviour. You are both rude and over step your boundaries. You have no right to dictate the etiquettes of another or bully.

Incidentally, I consider the use of 'mam' and 'sir' to be servile and ingratiating. Mr. or Mrs. is acceptable and only useful if there has been introductions.

As for the Palestinians, they have every right to resist the crimes of the Israeli pirate state.