Baroness Tonge: "Israel stands accused of war crimes witnessed by the whole world"

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Ownification

 

Can I claim that the Western society is the aggressor because some Westerners are molesting childeren, raping their own women, and throwing tons of bombs and missiles on soverien states and starting proxy wars which results in to genocide which in result, more torture and more rape in other people's lands?

The difference being is that Western's don't approve or support this type of behavior, while you, and the rest who back Muslim terrorists like Hamas, do back these types of activities.

And don't forget to mention that many(including you) Westerners do support the barbaric acts of Israel and America. It is the same.

Israel and Palestine could live in peace if terrorists like Hamas didn't insist on waging un-ending war until one or the other is completely and totally destroyed.

Yes they could live in peace if Israel stop expanding their territories creating new settlements daily, even today they plan to create new settlements in Palestinian territories. Yes they could have lived in peace if they didn't kill innocent Palestinian women and children daily, even today. Yes they could live peacefully if the Zionists don't insist on claiming that the whole land belongs to them... I could go on but you get the point.

The rest of your post is nothing but ignorance piled upon ignorance. The twisted logic reveals the twisted mind behind it. The only question is, when will our patience reach its end.

If it was ignorance you would easily be able to abolish it, but your mind can't absorb what it doesn't want to.

What is going on against Israel is nothing different than what is going on between Muslims ans the rest of the world.

Nope it's is not prove me wrong.

reply to post by Ownification


War and terrorism are completely different things. Soldiers who go to war seek out enemy combatants to kill them, and try to avoid killing non combatants. This is how Israel has responded to Hamas terrorist.

Terrorist like Hamas intentionally seek out and kill non-combatants. They fight inside of civilian areas using women and children as shields. There is a huge difference.

Palestine started a war with Israel and lost, and lost those territories that Israel is now starting to occupy. That is the way it works when you start a war that you can not win.

The west is putting a great deal of effort to combat terrorism and avoid killing innocent civilians that terrorist hide among and use as shields. At some point in time, that effort may cease.

Yoiu made no points to counter, you just stated a bunch of nonsense that has nothing to do with the reality of the situation.

reply to post by psyko45


Oh look,another new member whos joined to support Israel.

The arabs dont feel Israel has a right to exist. Period.

This is incorrect.Period.
Many believe that both Israel and Palestine can exist together.That iw why there are organizations such as the IPCRI,a joint institution of Israelis and Palestinians dedicated to the resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict on the basis of “two-states for two peoples” solution.www.ipcri.org...

Since 1948 Israel has been attacked by its neighbors on a regular basis.

That would be down to the actions of their own government;stealing lands,stealing homes,setting up blockades,taking Palestinians jobs,starving people,stopping/reducing medical/water/electric supplies to the Palestinians etc etc.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...



[edit on 3-2-2009 by DantesLost]

reply to post by DantesLost



Oh look another old member who thinks seniority on ATS means they are kewwwwl.

reply to post by setfree


Palestine has been occupied since 1948 with the birth of Israel. The Palestinian people are paying the price for the crimes Germany and Europe committed against the Jewish people in WW2. Israel continuously uses disproportionate force and indiscriminately bombs wherever it see fit, while America writes it a blank check for aggression and gives it a political and diplomatic backing in the UN and world stage through its veto power. It has imposed a total blockade on Gaza in order to further subjugate the Palestinians denying them food, medicine, electricity, and other essentials, Israel has 500 plus UN resolutions against it for its occupation and continues to thumb its nose at the international community because of Americas blind backing of its regime while it commits war crime. America continually speaks of Darfur and such while remaining silent on Palestine for the last 60 plus years. The world needs to stop Israel's genocide in Palestine.

So who is this Baroness and why should I pay attention to her?

Yes, she's a nurse and fine grandma, and distinguished MP and all that.

Bfd, I've done a few things in my life, too.

I'm an outsider in this fight: it's really hard for me to tell Christians, Muslims, and Jews apart; about the only real difference I can see is that the Jews don't try to convert me, so they're the least dangerous and annoying to me. But both sides are screwed up here.

But what I see is that the Palestinians have a god-awful high birthrate for a people living in the freaking desert. So don't whine to me about how crowded Gaza is in the context of it somehow being Israel's fault. That responsibility lies at the feet of the Palestinians. If you find it too crowded, stop having seven or eight children per woman.

If a country wants to go to war with another, that's their business...I strongly, very strongly, advise against it; working on genuine compromise (yeah, that means lose the "kill all the Jews" crap) is vastly more productive. But if you insist upon attacking your enemy, then I have absolutely NO sympathy for the results of your military incompetence.

Warfare is not proportianate: in war you never, ever give your opponent an even chance or a fair fight, that is simply insane and a guarantee of horrific casualties on both sides. If you can't utterly smash your enemy in a surprise attack, don't bother: stay home and talk it out. If you are attacked and don't utterly destroy your enemy's ability to attack you again, you have failed in your duty to your nation.

Taking a little care not to kill civilians is good, but irrelevant to warfare. We (most of the civilized world, anyway) are far more humane now than ever before, so I don't understand all the nonsense about barbarism. If you want to see what really barbaric warfare was like just a few generations ago go look up the massacres in the Balkans, sniping children, rape as policy: that's barbarism.

Sorry, but the arithmetic of war is harsh, brutal, and completely unforgiving. If you don't like the outcomes, don't play the damned game: talk, compromise and help each other, instead.

Palestine has been occupied since 1948 with the birth of Israel. The Palestinian people are paying the price for the crimes Germany and Europe committed against the Jewish people in WW2. Israel continuously uses disproportionate force and indiscriminately bombs wherever it see fit, while America writes it a blank check for aggression and gives it a political and diplomatic backing in the UN and world stage through its veto power. It has imposed a total blockade on Gaza in order to further subjugate the Palestinians denying them food, medicine, electricity, and other essentials, Israel has 500 plus UN resolutions against it for its occupation and continues to thumb its nose at the international community because of Americas blind backing of its regime while it commits war crime. America continually speaks of Darfur and such while remaining silent on Palestine for the last 60 plus years. The world needs to stop Israel's genocide in Palestine.

Originally posted by psyko45
reply to post by Ownification

 

The definition you came up with is interesting...according to it all military organizations are terrorists. I dont buy it. Use Webster.

Exactly my friend, you are getting it now. Terrorism is a word of propaganda. That's exactly why I stated that one group calls the west terrorists and the other calls Muslims terrorist(to generalize it). Propaganda is they key word here, let's not forget that the Indians who fought against the British colonial power were refered to as terrorists, yet in India they are refered to as heros.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Ownification

 

War and terrorism are completely different things. Soldiers who go to war seek out enemy combatants to kill them, and try to avoid killing non combatants. This is how Israel has responded to Hamas terrorist.

Is that so
Here's the key parts of your sentence: "avoid killing non-combatants". How does W.P. avoid non-combatants? You think those tons of bombs that was droped and still being droped in GAZA gave a damn about the non-combatants? Better than that, actions speaks more than words which poses a question: how many civilians have been killed since the damned existance of Israel, in both sides. Put them together and let your head boggle. Even if Israel says it is aiming combatants, it doesn't mean anything because we really don't know what is going on behind the scene.

Terrorist like Hamas intentionally seek out and kill non-combatants. They fight inside of civilian areas using women and children as shields. There is a huge difference.

So how do they intentionally seek out and kill non-combatants, see you are so ignorant that I'll do this step by step with you to get it in to your head. Answer the question, how do they seek out and kill non-combatants.

And for the human shield part, that can't be proven at all. I would love you to prove to me Hamas using humans as shields. I get the argument that they are fighting in civilian areas but hell they got no where else to fight from, do you want them to fight from Egypt? Or maybe from the Israeli side of the border. Ohh maybe they should fight from the sea, maybe if they spent enough time on the sea they could evolve and potentially become amphibians, wouldn't that be cool.

Palestine started a war with Israel and lost, and lost those territories that Israel is now starting to occupy. That is the way it works when you start a war that you can not win.

Palestine is not a state, so basically Palestine didn't start a war, it was the aboriginies of the land who started a war against the Zionest organization who was pushing the Jews to migrate from all over the world in to one small piece of land, heck no aboriginie would accept that.

The west is putting a great deal of effort to combat terrorism and avoid killing innocent civilians that terrorist hide among and use as shields. At some point in time, that effort may cease.

Once again prove to all of us your claims, yea Fox news mentions this often but that doesn't make it true to say the least.

Yoiu made no points to counter, you just stated a bunch of nonsense that has nothing to do with the reality of the situation.

See last time you disregarded most of my response, if it was any other individual they wouldn't bother conversating with you and would call you ignorant fullstop. I haven't seen many people who lose most of their points in a debate and still have the self of esteem to continue debating. If an individual was looking for the truth he wouldn't continue the debate and go investigate on the issues he got hammered in. You, you in the other hand, I don't know about you.


Just wanted to add this quote from another ATS member, very excellent point for you to put your head across.

Since 1948 Israel has been attacked by its neighbors on a regular basis.

That would be down to the actions of their own government;stealing lands,stealing homes,setting up blockades,taking Palestinians jobs,starving people,stopping/reducing medical/water/electric supplies to the Palestinians etc etc.

[edit on 032828p://28b2 by Ownification]

reply to post by apacheman


Excellent post.

But what I see is that the Palestinians have a god-awful high birthrate for a people living in the freaking desert. So don't whine to me about how crowded Gaza is in the context of it somehow being Israel's fault. That responsibility lies at the feet of the Palestinians. If you find it too crowded, stop having seven or eight children per woman.

Yep, and that is their master plan for world wide domination. Out populate the rest of the world, which is why they maintain such tight control on their women, and murder their women should they choose a mate outside of the religion. Israel and the Palestinian territories were sparsely populated before Israel became a nation, since then Palestinian population growth has gone insane. Europe should be paying attention.

In the past, these terrorist attacks would have lead to war without quarter, which is why terrorism is a new form of warfare. In the past, after large numbers had been wiped out, these types of terrorist activities would have stopped completely.

reply to post by Ownification


I know you don't care about the truth, that your only purpose here is to deny reality, but I will once again show you how completely wrong your are.

How do you avoid killing non-combatants, by only attacking those who are attacking you. It is quite simple, really. If Isreal wanted to kill non-combatants, they would simply take down and entire building if someone fired from that building. They would take out entire blocks, if mortars or rockets were fired from the area. They would go house to house and simply kill all the male inhabitants. This latter technique could be pulled off, and easily denied, with the claim that all deaths were combatants, and the world would say nothing, especially after Mumbai.

How do you seek out and kill non-combatants. Do you really have to ask? By blowing yourself up in market areas filled with civilians, by launching rockets at civilian targets, by going into hotels where people are going about their daily business and and killing anyone who comes into your site.

How could Hamas not use civilians as shields, by not launching mortars from locations next to schools and hospitals, by clearing civilians out of the areas where fighting is to take place, by engaging the enemy, and standing and fighting, not running off into civilian crowds, or buildings filled with civilians, by not firing from buildings where civilians are located.

Your last post, and the numerous others before that repeat the same nonsense as always. You lose every point in your debates, and try to claim victory. The Palestinian elements have attacked the Israelis continuously since the nations conception. The are not aborigines, they are Muslims who refuse to live in peace with others.

The Israelis have made their share of mistakes, but they have also shown considerably more williness to seek out peace.

reply to post by psyko45


Way to miss the point there.

It has nothing to do with seniority,but to do with the fact there has been a sudden influx of new members who are out to defend Israel.

Nothing wrong with that of course.
Except when they do what you do,miss out half the facts in a pursuit to paint the Israeli government as whiter then white.

reply to post by poet1b

War and terrorism are completely different things. Soldiers who go to war seek out enemy combatants to kill them, and try to avoid killing non combatants. This is how Israel has responded to Hamas terrorist.

As Baroness Tonge pointed out,The Israeli Army dropped 155mm shells in residential areas.These can do damage over a range of 300 metres.Do you really think that only the Hamas targets were destroyed?

They have also used cluster bombswww.digitaljournal.com...A weapon designed to drop small bomblets over a wide area.Do you think they destroyed Hamas locations only?

Likewise,WP cannot be contained to just one area.
So to suggest that Israel have done their best to not kill civilians is ignorant,at best.

End the genocide of Palestine by the apartheid Israeli regime. The West cannot claim to have the moral high ground as long as they support diplomatically, militarily and politically the massacre of innocent Palestinian civilians. The West must end the hypocritical application of international law and the Geneva convention. How can they call for the prosecution of Sudan's president, Zimbabwe's president and President Saddam Hussein of Iraq while they remain silent on the calls to also prosecute the Israeli leaders for their war crimes? If international law is to be followed and applied equally across the board then the West must show its impartiality by putting out international warrants for any Israeli leader and commander that took part in the massacres of Palestinian civilians.

First read this:

As Baroness Tonge pointed out,The Israeli Army dropped 155mm shells in residential areas.These can do damage over a range of 300 metres.Do you really think that only the Hamas targets were destroyed?

They have also used cluster bombswww.digitaljournal.com...A weapon designed to drop small bomblets over a wide area.Do you think they destroyed Hamas locations only?

Likewise,WP cannot be contained to just one area.
So to suggest that Israel have done their best to not kill civilians is ignorant,at best.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Ownification

 

I know you don't care about the truth, that your only purpose here is to deny reality, but I will once again show you how completely wrong your are.

That's funny, I wasn't the one who made this claim which shows your ignorance:

he Jewish people have been living in Israel for thousands of years, they have every right to control their own country.

Anyone who reads that knows how rediculousely ignorant you are.

Now let's continue

How do you avoid killing non-combatants, by only attacking those who are attacking you. It is quite simple, really. If Isreal wanted to kill non-combatants, they would simply take down and entire building if someone fired from that building. They would take out entire blocks, if mortars or rockets were fired from the area. They would go house to house and simply kill all the male inhabitants. This latter technique could be pulled off, and easily denied, with the claim that all deaths were combatants, and the world would say nothing, especially after Mumbai.

I guess you haven't seen the pictures lol, they did takeout entire building, for god sakes that's why 1300 enocent people died. I guess FOX news has got to you. Mumbai was not done by Hamas and the world wouldn't accept it, Israel is already in hell lot of trouble because Al-Jazeera reporters happen to be in Gaza while they massacred civillians. The western media viewd these images for the first time in west and you see the outrage. First time war crime charges, never happened before.

How do you seek out and kill non-combatants. Do you really have to ask? By blowing yourself up in market areas filled with civilians, by launching rockets at civilian targets, by going into hotels where people are going about their daily business and and killing anyone who comes into your site.

Well just like Israel continuously blames everything for mis-intel, Hamas could do the same. I have said this before in another thread but I will repeat my self, although pointless. Hamas can easily make the claim that the civilians deaths were cause by mis-intel, and it would be more believable because Hamas doesn't have a separate intel organization like MOSAD.

"The plane came and bombed the area." The district governor, Haji Amishah Gul, told the British Times, "So far there are 27 people, including women and children..

." The members of an Afghan inquiry, appointed by President Hamid Karzai, later found that, in all, 47 civilians had died, including 39 women and children, and nine others were wounded.

This was a mis-intel, can't Hamas claim the same? Yes they could. Firing rockets at civilian areas lol, that's funny are you talking about those home made rockets? WOW you can't even aim them so basically they have no choice, if they aim it to the left it will go to the right and if you aim it to the right it will go to the left lol. Haven't you seen the videos in youtube wierdo. They could easily claim that they were aiming military targets. No point arguing here.

How could Hamas not use civilians as shields, by not launching mortars from locations next to schools and hospitals, by clearing civilians out of the areas where fighting is to take place, by engaging the enemy, and standing and fighting, not running off into civilian crowds, or buildings filled with civilians, by not firing from buildings where civilians are located.

Did you hear about the story where civilians all gather around one combatant to protect him, thinking that Israel wouldn't kill everyone because of one person, naive, they all died, . And you should know GAZA is one of the most populated areas in the world. I already answered this before but once again you just blaber the same thing. I already asked you where do you want them to fight from? They are not amphebians for god sakes, you are so anoying. If you start a debate with someone, trust me he will run away from you.

Your last post, and the numerous others before that repeat the same nonsense as always. You lose every point in your debates, and try to claim victory. The Palestinian elements have attacked the Israelis continuously since the nations conception. The are not aborigines, they are Muslims who refuse to live in peace with others.

See watch how I will disprove your point here and you will continue coming back blabering more BS from your ass. Read this very carefully, I don't want you to miss it. "The are not aborigines"

ab·o·rig·i·nal (adj.) - indigenous: existing in a place from the earliest known times

(n.) - original inhabitant: a member of a people who have lived in an area from the earliest known times ...

See Palestinian people, They all came from the same descendants, the canonites, genetics proves it. They are the indigenous people of that land. Come back with more blaber, America massacred millions of Indian Americans we don't want the same to happen in Palestine and what makes it even worse is the fact that America doesn't accept the fact that they commited a genocide.

And for the record Columbus went to the wrong continent out of his stupidity, Indians are pretty lucky, they could have been massacred instead if he travelled towards the right direction.

The Israelis have made their share of mistakes, but they have also shown considerably more williness to seek out peace.

Yeah actions speak more than words, just examine the actions of Israel within two years and you will see, it is really not that hard but ofcurse you are one of the brainwashed ones. You only have one hope of coming back to reality, you have to use hypnosis .

[edit on 062828p://28b2 by Ownification

[edit on 072828p://28b2 by Ownification]

reply to post by Ownification


Excellent post
sorry for 1liner, but had to say it.

reply to post by Ownification


Wow, Jewish people haven't been living in the area around the city of Jerusalem for thousands of years, really? The people claiming to be Palestinians have been shown to genetically be Arabs. When Muslims conquered the area, they forced everyone to start speaking Arabic. This is the reason the language spoken by Christ is dying. Replying further is a waste of time.

The rest of your propaganda nonsense isn't worth replying to, like your first statements, so devoid of reality, they are completely delusional. Who do you think you are fooling? Leftists like the Baroness are losing power in the west, because the people see the disconnect from reality. Your hard stance is only creating more and more enemies. The rest of the world is lining up against you. While China and Russia will take advantage of the situation as much as possible, they will never side with the Muslim world, just the opposite. India is already against you, and the situation there is getting worse as well.

I am a liberal, thought the invasion of Iraq was the wrong thing to do, but as I have learned more and more about this conflict of civilizations, my attitude is becoming more and more conservative, and it seems that things are only going to get worse. Support of terrorism only means that hostilities are going to continue to grow. Eventually, the kid gloves are going to come off. The rest of the world is looking at the situation of Israel, and the protests of Muslims, and they are not approving, just the opposite. While you want to claim that other horrific incidents of terrorism that the world is witnessing have nothing to do with what is going on in Israel, the rest of the world sees it the other way.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Ownification

 

Wow, Jewish people haven't been living in the area around the city of Jerusalem for thousands of years, really? The people claiming to be Palestinians have been shown to genetically be Arabs. When Muslims conquered the area, they forced everyone to start speaking Arabic. This is the reason the language spoken by Christ is dying. Replying further is a waste of time.

When Muslims conquered Palestine, they did not kick the Jews or force them to do anything, jews lived along side Muslims for along time, it was the Crusades who kicked all the Jews out remember, but ofcurse FOX news doesn't allow you to examine history.

This is the reason why Israel exists today:

According to the Bible, Jacob is renamed Israel after successfully wrestling with an angel of God

Between the time of the Israelite kingdoms and the 7th-century Muslim conquests, the Land of Israel fell under Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Sassanian, and Byzantine rule.[26] Jewish presence in the region dwindled after the failure of the Bar Kokhba revolt against the Roman Empire in 132 CE and the resultant large-scale expulsion of Jews. In 628/9, the Byzantine Emperor Heraclius conducted a massacre and expulsion of the Jews, at which point the Jewish population probably reached its lowest point. Nevertheless, a continuous Jewish presence in the Land of Israel remained.

So don't blame Muslims, blame Christians, they were the ones who kicked them out.

The rest of your propaganda nonsense isn't worth replying to, like your first statements, so devoid of reality, they are completely delusional. Who do you think you are fooling? Leftists like the Baroness are losing power in the west, because the people see the disconnect from reality. Your hard stance is only creating more and more enemies. The rest of the world is lining up against you. While China and Russia will take advantage of the situation as much as possible, they will never side with the Muslim world, just the opposite. India is already against you, and the situation there is getting worse as well.

Muslims are actually not looking for sides, they are looking for their old empire so they can stand up on their own two feet instead of being pushed around by world powers.

I am a liberal, thought the invasion of Iraq was the wrong thing to do, but as I have learned more and more about this conflict of civilizations, my attitude is becoming more and more conservative, and it seems that things are only going to get worse. Support of terrorism only means that hostilities are going to continue to grow. Eventually, the kid gloves are going to come off. The rest of the world is looking at the situation of Israel, and the protests of Muslims, and they are not approving, just the opposite. While you want to claim that other horrific incidents of terrorism that the world is witnessing have nothing to do with what is going on in Israel, the rest of the world sees it the other way.

Actually by the time anything happens the world will all be descendants of Muslims, that is just to make you feel scared. I know you are Islamaphobic Obama Hussain, jesus chris the next bugger might have a full Muslim name, that is gonna get to you I know it will, just get use to it.

reply to post by Ownification


Oh, so now you admit that Jewish people have been living in Israel for thousands of years, when in the previous post you claimed that stating this was evidence of how "rediculousely ignorant" I am. Thanks for validating my point. All of your versions of history are told with a definate perspective. Clearly you are westernphobic.

Muslims aren't trying to re-establish their old empire, they are busy expanding it in Africa, and continuing on with their quest to conquer and gain control of all of India. All of the Muslim world is up in arms that Israel has been created in an area they once controlled. How dare a tiny portion of the huge areas controlled by Muslims be given to the Jewish people to control. By the way, many Muslims do live in peace in Israel, how is that if Jews aren't the source of all evil? The West Bank did not get attacked, why?

The point that you don't get in your wet dream of world domination, is that if we keep going in the direction that we are, no humans will survive. Go ahead, continue to preach that terrorism is acceptable, and should be overlooked. You aren't about to let truth get in your way.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Ownification

 

Oh, so now you admit that Jewish people have been living in Israel for thousands of years, when in the previous post you claimed that stating this was evidence of how "rediculousely ignorant" I am. Thanks for validating my point. All of your versions of history are told with a definate perspective. Clearly you are westernphobic.

No body claimed they didn't live there. Read your statement again:

he Jewish people have been living in Israel for thousands of years, they have every right to control their own country.

Now you are sooo ignorant that you don't even know what is wrong with your statement, I never claimed they didn't live in that land previousely, heck before the Jews someone else lived there, remember. The problem with your sentence is your proclamation that since they lived in that land 2000 years ago, they have the right to return and control that land which other's are living in. Well if it is true than it doesn't belong to the Jews either, it belongs to Canonites, and heck it even goes even further than that. You can't kick people from their homes who lived there for generations because your ancestors lived in the same land over 2000 years ago. Hey why doesn't America let the Indian Americans controle the land their ancestors used to live in? But than again they say ignorance is a bless.

Muslims aren't trying to re-establish their old empire, they are busy expanding it in Africa, and continuing on with their quest to conquer and gain control of all of India. All of the Muslim world is up in arms that Israel has been created in an area they once controlled. How dare a tiny portion of the huge areas controlled by Muslims be given to the Jewish people to control. By the way, many Muslims do live in peace in Israel, how is that if Jews aren't the source of all evil? The West Bank did not get attacked, why?

See the whole discussion was based on Israel/Palestinian conflect, you have brought it completely to Islam, amazing, shows how Islamophobia is spreading. How did you change the discussion without me even noticing? Beats me lol.

And who said Jews are the source of all evil? I don't know where you are going with this

The point that you don't get in your wet dream of world domination, is that if we keep going in the direction that we are, no humans will survive. Go ahead, continue to preach that terrorism is acceptable, and should be overlooked. You aren't about to let truth get in your way.

Once again with the terrorism retorics, I can prove to you once and for all that the West supports and implements as much terrorism as you believe Muslims are, should we stick to that discussion, instead of wasting time in something you immensely lack knowledge of.