To staunch pro-lifers : Is abortion always wrong?

reply to post by Clearskies


Actually I was responding to Dark Passenger.

As I stated above, it is the less-effective birth controlmethods that are free, like condoms, the rest are by prescription only. Not an option for the underaged or the uninsured.

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
reply to post by crmanager

 

Of course abortion is a choice. Everything you do is a choice.

Essentially what you are saying is that to protect some random woman's child you would be prepared to use state-sanctioned force to prevent her from having an abortion; irrespective of the conditions.

I wanted to keep this civil, so I wont start ranting... but your views appear equally extreme to that of the terrorists.

"Ohhh educating girls... thats not a choice. They are girls, they have no right to education. Whatever they want is irrelevant" Say the Taliban.

"My duty is to protect unborn children everywhere. It doesnt matter if I cause huge emotional distress to the mother, invade her natural rights, stick my nose where it doesnt belong, show a cavalier disregard for her opinions etc" Say you?

Wow, I am the extreme one?

"Essentially what you are saying is that to protect some random woman's child you would be prepared to use state-sanctioned force to prevent her from having an abortion; irrespective of the conditions.

I love that. I never said it but that is super shrill rhetoric and I love when people simply make stuff up.

I said, I will continue talking to people. I can see where you would take that as "State sanctioned force."

The world is NOT out to get you/women. Abortion is legal. This is all hypothetical. Take a breath.

I believe that abortion is wrong. You don't. I believe that you are a eugenicist. You believe that I am a right wing storm trooper. Ok.

Remember, If it abortion is not always wrong, you might make a mistake and someone dies. If I make a mistake then everyone is still alive.

The point here is that you are infringing one someones right to choice. How can you say that abortion is not a choice? It is a choice. Something is growing inside me, I have the right to choose whether I want to keep that or not.

You don't have to agree with it. But you don't have the right to attempt to take away my choice either. The choice should always be open.

Are you a vegetarian or a vegan?

If not than you are eating the flesh of a murdered animal every time you eat meat. I don't see anyone asking the animal if it wants to die or not.

Surely abortion has to be an option, its all well and good for those with religious beliefs to condemn such actions, but really...should a woman that has been raped have to suffer 9 months carrying the child of her vicious attacker only to either a. spend the rest of her life bringing that child up with that everyday reminder or b. after 9 months give the baby away, I don't believe either are an option, especially if this decision is driven by the antiquated beliefs of self righteous bible bashers, no offence of course. Would their views be the same if it was their daughters being raped? Maybe and that's what scares me about religion, blind faith to a fictional bestseller. What next, The Harry Potter church of Wisdom!

As for everyday abortion, again it has to be an option, we are fast approaching 7 billion on the planet, if we are forced to have unplanned/unwanted children then we are heading down the inevitable road of governmental child restriction, same as China. Is it preferable to terminate before development as you know you can't provide for the child or have the child then drown it at birth like a kitten as you can't afford the child tax? This happens in China everyday. Wake up, people make mistakes, being religious and assuming its Ok to tell everyone else how to live is one of the biggest.

Anti-abortion laws are used by governments to win religious votes, plain and simple.

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
The point here is that you are infringing one someones right to choice. How can you say that abortion is not a choice? It is a choice. Something is growing inside me, I have the right to choose whether I want to keep that or not.

You don't have to agree with it. But you don't have the right to attempt to take away my choice either. The choice should always be open.

Are you a vegetarian or a vegan?

If not than you are eating the flesh of a murdered animal every time you eat meat. I don't see anyone asking the animal if it wants to die or not.

Stay on topic, Stay on topic...

Abortion is legal. No one that I have seen on this post has stated that they want to take the right away. (I might be wrong on that)

I said abortion is wrong. Period.

Equating abortion to a flippin burger is wildly non-sensical.

I did not say killing is wrong. I said abortion is wrong. Period.

You have a PERSON in you not a choice. I have to admit I misspoke. Abortion is a choice. Along with theft, arson and setting fire to a house. You have the right to do those acts also. the difference is arson will get you jail time and abortion gets you the lable from "Planned Parenthood" of brave.

By the way did you know that the woman who founded PP was a eugenicist?

Planned Parenthood's Evil Roots

In Pivot of Civilization, Sanger referred to immigrants and poor folks as "human weeds," "reckless breeders," "spawning ... human beings who never should have been born."

That quote sounds like the tripe being spewed here.

The purpose in promoting birth control was "to create a race of thoroughbreds," she wrote in The Birth Control Review, Nov. 1921 (p. 2)

article

You have bitten hard on the "Life is important only if it is worthy" bile that has been put out for years.

I hope you change your mind but you probably will not. Just be careful when you come to a place where this decision might be made. There are evil people who spent their live trying to convince you that only certain children are deserving of life.

To those who like to say, "it is just a bunch of cells, like any other in the body." I would reply as has been stated before me, that this "bunch" of cells is a growing child. Someone said then the sperm and the egg are also to be considered children. The difference being....this "bunch" of cells is a combination of the sperm and the egg. Thus a child.

As for those who argue the mother has the right, well...yes, legally. If all humans have the right to life, then that "bunch" of cells, that cannot be anything but a child, should also have the right to life.

I have always wondered why it is considered murder if a woman gives birth to a baby and dumps it in the garbage can, but if the baby was aborted just before birth that is legal.

The argument is that the government should have no right to make a law to prevent killing the baby in the womb, but we have many laws on the books against any other killing, including "hate" killing. This logic mystifies me.

My feelings are really involved in the case of rape or incest. I do realize that the pregnancy is not her fault. This is a terrible and life changing event for a woman of any age. I don't believe that killing the unborn baby helps anything for the majority of women. But... who said that life is "fair" for anyone. If we are honest with ourselves we do have many "unfair" problems to face during our lives. We can choose to let them make us stronger or not.

As for the "quality" of life. Did any of you watch the video on page 1 posted by Supecertari? This video is of the conjoined twins. It sure looks to me as though they are dealing with what is a terrible problem, but do you think they would rather be dead?

I have read this whole thread. I do have to admit that I am against abortion. Some worry about the neglect, abuse or poverty of the world into which the child will be born. Can any of the above merit the horrible physical pain to the child being aborted in womb? The womb which should be shielding the child from all hurt.

reply to post by crmanager


My reference to "a flippin burger" is not wildly nonsensical. It's essentially the same thing. You're preaching "right to life", so does a cow have a "right to life" or a baby lamb? How about ducks and chickens and fish? If you want to sit here and talk about right to life, you have to include ALL life.

Abortion is not wrong (I never said anything about legalization) because before the child is born it is not a child. Up until the child is born it is still a part of the mother and if the mother decides to terminate the pregnancy, she has not done so wrongly. Especially in the case where the woman does so to keep the future child from suffering it's whole life.

I don't care about who started PP, or if she was a eugenicist. I don't care if she was racist or anything like that. We're not talking about her.

EDIT: spelling

[edit on 1/14/09 by TasteTheMagick]

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
reply to post by crmanager

 

My reference to "a flippin burger" is not wildly nonsensical. It's essentially the same thing. You're preaching "right to life", so does a cow have a "right to life" or a baby lamb? How about ducks and chickens and fish? If you want to sit here and talk about right to life, you have to include ALL life.

Abortion is not wrong (I never said anything about legalization) because before the child is born it is not a child. Up until the child is born it is still a part of the mother and if the mother decides to terminate the pregnancy, she has not done so wrongly. Especially in the case where the woman does so to keep the future child from suffering it's whole life.

I don't care about who started PP, or if she was a eugenicist. I don't care if she was racist or anything like that. We're not talking about her.

EDIT: spelling

[edit on 1/14/09 by TasteTheMagick]

At nine months and days before the birth you are FINE with a child being aborted for any reason because it is part of Mom. You are saying the same words as a eugenicists and are fine with that.

This is me hitting the IGNORE button repeatedly...

I wish it could be called the "I want to throw up" button.

reply to post by crmanager

At nine months and days before the birth

Yeah...that's what I said

You know, you've spent a lot of time making rash exaggerations of the things I've said and when I place your own logic back in front of you, there's always some kind of problem. Grow up.

I'm not a eugenicist. I support the right of the mother to make her own choice and not be condemned for doing so.


"research with diverse samples, different measures of response, and different times of assessment have come to similar conclusions. The time of greatest distress is likely to be before the abortion. Severe negative reactions after abortions are rare and can best be understood in the framework of coping with normal life stress." -Adler NE, et al. "Psychological responses after abortion." Science, April 1990, 248: 41-44.

"While some women may experience sensations of regret, sadness or guilt after an abortion, the overwhelming responses are relief and happiness." -Adler NE, et al. "Psychological factors in abortion: a review." American Psychologist, 1992, 47(10): 1194-1204.

reply to post by 44soulslayer


I used to be all for abortion being up to the mother,and only objected against those who used frivolous reasons to abort.

Until I started looking into it,and the images I saw changed my mind completely.

Some argue that doing it during the first trimester is ok.For those people I suggest googling first trimester abortions.You will see photos of tiny humans whose heart had started to beat within the 5th week of pregnancy.(first trimester is up to 12 weeks)

Pictures after that are even more disturbing.Especially when you see the corpse of an aborted baby that has its eyes wide open.

Rape and a threat to the mothers life are the only times abortion should be considered.


[edit on 14-1-2009 by DantesLost]

reply to post by TasteTheMagick


I'd like to address your comment, if I may?

"Let's say I'm pregnant and know I can not raise the child properly, or that I know it would suffer pain it's whole life, OR that I am unprepared for raising the child. Let's say I was raped. That this was not a child that love created."

I believe every life is precious, and although this child was not created by 2 people who loved each other, I do believe that love created this child. That love is God who created everyone and everything in the universe. Now I know,
you will strongly disagree, try and hear me out.

None of us know what tomorrow will bring. To say "I know it would suffer pain it's whole life" is to say you are All knowing and can predict the events,
of the future. That simply is not possible. Do you get up everyday knowing exactly what that day will bring? Have you ever been surprised by something that happened in your life?

You have condemned an innocent life based on illogical emotion. Yes it is traumatic for the mother but those initial feelings won't last a lifetime. Trust
me I know from first hand experience. At first, it seems like a vicious trap, a constant reminder, but that baby is part of the mother That baby represents the most incredible bond there is on this planet. No one has the right to decide for a helpless child that they are worthless and should die.

As far as adoption, it is very difficult in America to adopt an American new born. The wait is extremely long and it is very expensive. This I know. My best friend has been waiting on a baby for a very long time. Most agencies
pay top dollar for newborns. That money could help the mother start to rebuild her life. It really doesn't matter what the options are but I don't see
taking an innocent life as one.

Since somewhere around 20% of ALL pregnancies naturally miscarriage, and you pro-lifers believe God controls pretty much everything, doesn't that make your God the largest committer of abortions?

Since somewhere around 20% of ALL pregnancies naturally miscarriage, and you pro-lifers believe God controls pretty much everything, doesn't that make your God the largest committer of abortions?

Originally posted by crmanager
I said abortion is wrong. Period.

IMO abortion is always wrong. Even if having an abortion will benefit the mother in every imaginable way, It is selfish at every look. The only time abortion makes sense is if the mother and child's life is in danger if birth continues.
Sacrifice is selfless. Even if it is your life which you have experienced to let another who has never seen the light of love to experience it. I have no problem with abortion being legal (It is just getting away with a minute scale of murder) The mother does not have to raise the child (her choice also). Governments are so concentrated on providing abortion as an option and not looking into more adequate programs for helping pregnant mothers in unthinkable circumstances for giving the born a life so they just might appreciate it.

the quality of life is undetermined until it has lived.

reply to post by paxnatus


So if I am told that my child has a disease and will have it all of it's life, and I know this is a painful thing to have, then you're saying have no way of knowing that the child will suffer? If I know I have no way to provide for this child, I don't know that it will struggle?

I don't understand how you can say the love of God created the child conceived in a rape. A child in that situation was conceived in hatred and brutality.

SOME MORE INFO -


ATS Thread - Abortion is black genocide

Abortion is black genocide site
WARNING - DISTURBING PICTURES

I think saying that abortion is black-race suicide is probably more accurate.

Some history on racism in abortion and Margaret Sanger

MLK niece says her uncle would not approve of black people killing their children.

Famous Jesse Jackson Quote from 1977 - Abortion is black genocide. What happens to the mind of a person and the moral fabric of a nation that accepts the aborting of the life of a baby without a pang of conscience?" (He also said at that time that any black person who supported abortion had 'sold out'. Jackson NOW supports abortion)



[edit on 1/16/2009 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
A child in that situation was conceived in hatred and brutality.

He or she is still a child no matter how he or she was conceived. And that child is innocent and does not deserve to be murdered by his or her mother. Punish the rapist. Not the child.

reply to post by FlyersFan


It's not murder. Murder, by definition, is the act of illegal killing. Seeing as how abortion is not illegal, it is not murder and your entire point is invalid. It is not a selfish thing to do and to say that it is done to make the mother's life convenient is only proof of your own blindness to the situation.

reply to post by FlyersFan


You talk as though there is some sort of state obligation to prevent black people from disproportionately being more likely to have an abortion.

The simple reason that black babies are aborted more often than white babies is that black mothers are most often found in the inner city, are more often likely to be teenagers and more likely to be unwed.

At the risk of whipping up a hellstorm... Its the children of those unstable, immature single black mothers that are most likely to become criminals.

en.wikipedia.org...

And even if black people are having a disproportionately high number of abortions, shouldn't it be up to each individual to reverse this trend? Your state-backed ban of abortions idea is tantamount to saying that black people don't have the mental faculties to make the decision for themselves, and that they are unaware of the ramifications.


Lets also stop and consider your adoption idea. The irresponsible single mother gets pregnant, is not allowed an abortion and the child goes into adoption. Who pays for the massively increased orphanage costs? The taxpayer? Why the hell should I be subjected to increased taxes for another woman's mistake? (Lets not sugarcoat anything... a mistake is a mistake)

reply to post by 44soulslayer


Because they would rather everyone pay higher taxes rather than simply fix a mistake, that would be too easy. We need to unnecessarily overpopulate orphanages so that eventually we can be like China!