To staunch pro-lifers : Is abortion always wrong?

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by CeltAngel
brutally raped. ... would abortion be ok in a case like this?

Don't punish the unborn child with death because of the sin of the biological father. Don't punish the rape victim by pushing her to murder her own child, because that child IS HERS and killing him/her will haunt the rape victim.

Adoption is the option.

I dont understand how people can think like that, imagine living with the realisation that you have something forcibly put inside you, the last thing the rape victim is going to be thinking is "I want to keep this", maybe you should actually visit a womans shelter and talk to a rape victim, find out what psychological and physical torment they have suffered. Imagine living with the constant thoughts of self harm over your head because of the unwanted pregnancy

You obviously have no clue about the minds of people that have gone through this

Your attitude and ignorance is pathetic

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
reply to post by crmanager

 

Look you histrionic berk, I said in my opening post lets keep things civil...

I don't take the label of being a eugenicist as overly offensive... there are worse things to be.

You are entirely contorting my entire position. If I were the parent of a child who would be born with, say EB, I would want to prevent my future child from suffering chronic, interminable pain. A normal life is out of the question.

Here is what EB results in :

The skin has two layers; the outer layer is called the epidermis and the inner layer the dermis. In normal individuals, there are "anchors" between the two layers that prevent them from moving independently from one another. In people born with EB, the two skin layers lack the anchors that hold them together, and any action that creates friction between the layers (like rubbing or pressure) will create blisters and painful sores. Sufferers of EB have compared the sores to third-degree burns.

Would you like to live your life with continuous, whole body third degree burns?

The difference between genocide and selective breeding is admittedly a fine line, but it is one worth exploring. What if we would select embryos to not have EB. Would you still be against that? If so, are your personal religious beliefs not incredibly selfish as they may result in a child having to live with unbearable pain their entire life.

My stances may be unacceptable to you, and you can liken me to Hitler as much as you want in an attempt to deflect from the real issue here- and that is the inexplicable and indefensible proposition that your religious beliefs are supreme and absolute, and must be imposed on all others.

Oh and by the way, only the mother can choose whether or not to have an abortion to cease the birth of a severely abnormal child.

Histrionic Berk? What the heck is that?

Answer the question who decides? What if Mom decides that the child has the cancer gene and that is a terrible life?

What if Mom decides that she wanted a girl? Who are you to tell her no?

Who decides what "suffering" is?

By the way, you are the ONLY person bringing religion into this conversation. Defending life is not religious, it is moral. So unless you are saying morals are only a religious aspect stop talking nonsense.

[edit on 13-1-2009 by crmanager]

Originally posted by Clearskies
How many of you boys here have actually had an abortion?

Do you know how heart-rending it is to live the rest of your life knowing you killed someone?
That in your first trimester, you thought it was a small, cluster of cells and it wasn't?
How cavalier that you could be for abortion and then say, "It's up to the woman."
You're not responsible?

I can't pretend to know... but-

It's your opinion that life starts at conception rather than birth. There may well be many women who have abortions that do not negret their decision. Certainly the vaste swathe of women on the day-after pill don't seem to struggle with moral demons.

Why is the event of conception some magical point in time where that single fertilized ovum suddenly has human rights? Biologically that fertilized ovum is no different to any other human cell. What about if an ovum were stripped down and an adult human cell inserted (ie cloning). Does the embryo which started as a clone have the same human rights? If so, why does that right not extend to every single cell in the body?

reply to post by Clearskies


Yes I do know that adoption is different, however, I did some volunteer work and found out that sometimes, when there are too many children they get put in orphanages. At least here.

I'm also aware that it is a hard thing to do to get an abortion, but sometimes it's a better choice.

Abortion as a lifestyle or "fashion" choice is wrong... if you get pregnant through unprotected/consensual sex... then that is tough.... deal with the consequences... although I'm still not against it... just find it highly crude and pointless.

Rape... or reasons of a medical nature are a completely different story.
Abortion is needed in certain cases.

Not as a late means of contraception or a lazy way out...

reply to post by OzWeatherman


As sad as rape is and I've been raped,
Putting that child up for adoption is a good alternative to raising it.
The shame and stigma WILL not go away because you have an abortion.
Do you know how many children grow up normal after being the product of rape?
Many rape victims want to kill themselves as well, especially after being told it's their own fault.

reply to post by crmanager


I cant believe you chose to focus on my casual insult rather than the issues... oh well

dictionary.reference.com...

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
you may know two dozen people that have no problem with it but I know about the same amount who DO. Death is NOT unfair in this case.

You know two dozen people who were adopted and who have serious issues with their identities .. so serious that death is preferable for them? I'm calling BS on that.

That this was not a child that love created.

That doesn't matter. What matters is that the child is alive.

There are too many children in orphanages in this country alone,

Actually, the waiting list to adopt is years and years long. When we adopted the waiting list was 8 years long. So we went overseas.

Abortion is a choice and it's not wrong.

Abortion is a choice and it usually IS wrong to decide to have one.

it's a sad thing to know that it's better for you to go through with an abortion.

better for who? The dead child? Uh .. no.

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
Are you basically saying that its worth taking a gamble on the off chance that the child may pull through?

Sometimes children pull through. Sometimes not. But the fact is that the parents will have to live with knowing that they killed their child and it will haunt them.

I understand what you are saying here, I really do. And I can't say what I'd do in the same situation. But the one thing I can say is that pushing a parent to abort a child because of medical issues is wrong.

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
reply to post by Clearskies

 

Yes I do know that adoption is different, however, I did some volunteer work and found out that sometimes, when there are too many children they get put in orphanages. At least here.

"too many children in orphanages", agreed.
Do you think ADOPTIVE parents put them there? How did they get there?
You know many women who use abortion as a form of birth control have MORE babies, whom they don't respect, hence they are discarded or abused?

I'm also aware that it is a hard thing to do to get an abortion, but sometimes it's a better choice.

For who? The man?

Originally posted by Clearskies
reply to post by OzWeatherman

 

As sad as rape is and I've been raped,
Putting that child up for adoption is a good alternative to raising it.[.quote]

Until the child grows up and decides to find out who the real parents are, and finds out that they are the end result of a horrendous crime. Ever thought of those impacts

The shame and stigma WILL not go away because you have an abortion.
Do you know how many children grow up normal after being the product of rape?
Many rape victims want to kill themselves as well, especially after being told it's their own fault.

The shame may not go away, I can understand that....but why have to live another nine months with something that could be terminated before it develops into a living human.

Do you know how many rape victims have tried to perform abortions on themselves, sometimes ending with horrific results? I know of a girl that deliberately drove a car into a wall in hope that the steering wheel would crush her "unborn" child (result of rape). Unfortunantly, she lost more than what she intended including the use of her legs.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Your mocking of my points is ridiculous. You don't give me any reasons as to why what I'm saying is wrong, you're just saying "it's wrong because I say so" essentially.

How can you say that love isn't what matters here? The child is alive, but it is alive because of a hateful act, it is alive and has to suffer, it is alive and struggles to make it from day to day?

I don't think it's fair of you to make assumptions on what will and will not haunt a person. My mother had an abortion when she was young and she always said that it was hard but she knew she had to do it and that all she could hope for was that the soul be reborn into a better circumstance.

I know that in the same situation that's what would pull me through.

Originally posted by OzWeatherman
You obviously have no clue about the minds of people that have gone through this

Actually I do.

Your attitude and ignorance is pathetic

back atchya little man. :shk:

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
fertilized ovum

Preborn child.

Preborn children play with their fingers and toes.
Preborn children sleep and wake.
Preborn children suck their thumbs.
Preborn children yawn and they open and close their eyes.
Preborn children play with their cord.
Preborn children respond to voices outside the womb.
Preborn children FEEL PAIN - so much so that they require pain killers during in-womb surgery.



[edit on 1/13/2009 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by Clearskies
You know many women who use abortion as a form of birth control have MORE babies, whom they don't respect, hence they are discarded or abused?

Oh my, I totally agree with this

While I agree with abortion as a result of certain circumstances, I think people that use it as a form of contraception should be sterilised

[edit on 13/1/2009 by OzWeatherman]

reply to post by 44soulslayer


I was three months pregnant when I had my 'procedure'.
Yeah, I thought it was a blob of flesh. Unformed, squishy.
I don't believe that the morning after drug RU486? is without health dangers, as the embryo can become stuck and cause septicemia from what I heard.
Once in the womb, I think the embryo should be nurtured and protected.
I've also had a miscarriage. Not the same at all. I didn't have the guilt and shame as with abortion.
Oh BTW, I'm not catholic. In case you're from Europe and think ALL Christians are.

reply to post by Clearskies


Thank you for your candour.

However don't you think that your experience is precisely that (ie your experience). Is it valid to extend this as some sort of universal experience across all womankind?

How would labelling women who have an abortion as immoral (or worse, illegalising it) help if the woman genuinely does not want the child. This is especially true in the case of a rape victim.

By suggesting that the woman is in an emotional state and incapable of making the "correct" decision... are you not merely saying that you know better than her?

[edit on 13-1-2009 by 44soulslayer]

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
How can you say that love isn't what matters here?

Because it doesn't. The child's life takes top priority. It doesn't matter if the birth parents loved each other or not. That means nothing to the child when he or she is fighting for his or her life.

I don't think it's fair of you to make assumptions on what will and will not haunt a person.

Post Abortion Syndrome information here

reply to post by Clearskies


No, I don't think it's adoptive parents that put them there, that would be ignorant.

I'm not even talking about the man when I'm saying that sometimes abortion is a better choice and I'm not talking about women who are having more babies as a result of abortion, that doesn't make much sense actually.

What I'm saying is: It's hard, this I understand, but I think it's a choice that the mother of the child has the right to make. The man, especially in the case where the man wants to run off, he is not in control of the choice. If you want the child and he's got a problem with that, then by all means keep the child.

The man doesn't want the child, you do, oh well then. He's just going to have to live with it won't he? He doesn't have to carry the child.

reply to post by OzWeatherman


I knew a girl, 16, who got pregnant from a boyfriend and punched herself in the stomach to get rid of it.
I don't know what happened after that. She didn't talk about it.

To those that answered my question and discussed, I thank you. It is always enlightening to hear an honest point of view.

reply to post by FlyersFan


The child is not fighting for it's life in its preborn state. And you can not use a "study" to generalize everything. Each person will be different.