To staunch pro-lifers : Is abortion always wrong?

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

It is not a selfish thing to do and to say that it is done to make the mother's life convenient is only proof of your own blindness to the situation.

Really? how?. how is abortion not selfish.
The mothers life continues with progress, her life is better if she has an abortion correct?
So she discards the fetus inside her, knowing if she kept the fetus alive she would have given birth to a new born baby that would later possess the ability to express appreciation for being alive.

Am I blind for seeing this? Yep, its her choice, no problem, but to say this it is not being selfish is blind IMO.

reply to post by juveous


How is she being selfish if she knows that she can not provide for the child? How is she being selfish if she knows that the child will suffer pain it's whole life?

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
reply to post by juveous

 

How is she being selfish if she knows that she can not provide for the child? How is she being selfish if she knows that the child will suffer pain it's whole life?

She knows this? she knows for a fact the child will suffer pain (physical or psychological) their whole life? That is a broad assumption and the excuse to responsibility

. I want you to just think about this for a minute. She is choosing that the child should not exist to save the child from suffering. Now think about everyone who is brought up in this world through struggle, suffer, anguish, do think they would rather to have just never have been born at all? through a life's struggle, is there ever moments of unconditional love? Just questions...

It is the failed attempt that we believe we can predict the conditions of our future and the futures of others to the point of refusing the experience all together that makes us think there is no problem with abortion.

[edit on 16-1-2009 by juveous]

reply to post by juveous


She has the ability to, as in the situations given in the OP. Moreover she KNOWS whether or not she can provide for the child. This is not "predicting" the fate of the child. And if you're so sure that there not are people that would rather be dead, how do you explain suicide?

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
She has the ability to, as in the situations given in the OP. Moreover she KNOWS whether or not she can provide for the child. This is not "predicting" the fate of the child. And if you're so sure that there not are people that would rather be dead, how do you explain suicide?

That is not what I was arguing. She may know HER capabilities, but she does not know whether or not the child will suffer. She may over come what she was once not capable of, she may not even personally raise the child, she may find help from family, friends, organizations.

I assume people commit suicide because it is one way they believe will end suffering. How do you explain people that were once suicidal, but are glad they did not kill themselves? Maybe they found another way to end suffering I presume....

[edit on 16-1-2009 by juveous]

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
It's not murder. Murder, by definition, is the act of illegal killing. Seeing as how abortion is not illegal, it is not murder and your entire point is invalid.

You wish. Homicide is, by definition, when one person causes another persons heart to stop beating. That is what happens when a woman commits abortion. My point is VERY VALID. And correct.

It is not a selfish thing to do ...

Yes it is. To kill another human being in order to make life easier on yourself is very selfish. If it is done to save your own life, then it's self defense. Otherwise, it's just plain selfish. No ifs, ans, or buts about it.

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
At the risk of whipping up a hellstorm... Its the children of those unstable, immature single black mothers that are most likely to become criminals.

Correct. Ever read the book 'Freakanomics'?? You'd find it interesting, I think. It discusses some of the more unPC facts about economics. This subject being one of those facts.

shouldn't it be up to each individual to reverse this trend?

Absolutely.

Your state-backed ban of abortions idea ...

Where did I say there should be a state-backed ban of abortions?

Who pays for the massively increased orphanage costs?

The waiting list for children to adopt is rather lengthy.



[edit on 1/16/2009 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
How is she being selfish if she knows that she can not provide for the child?

Killing a child is selfish.
Allowing the child to live and be adopted into a loving home is not.

How is she being selfish if she knows that the child will suffer pain it's whole life?

Very few abortions are for medical reasons and even then, it is NOT the womans right to decide if the child should live or die. It's Gods' right alone.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Very few abortions are for medical reasons and even then, it is NOT the womans right to decide if the child should live or die. It's Gods' right alone.

In reality, possession is a controversial subject when coming to pregnancy.

It comes down to accepted definitions of what a human, an embryo, or a fetus is, in relation to their potential. Some people believe that potential is in the fertilization of an ovum by a spermatozoon (conception) and Time is the only thing that should constitute birth.

On the other hand, some say until birth, the "child" is under the possession of the mother, who has every right to do what is necessary for the sake of a progressive future.

I am pro-life, but until we have more acceptable definitions what "fits" the description of the process in development, I would not take away any mother's choice. I don't agree with the legalities of abortion, but they exist because we don't have a mutual understanding of what I just mentioned.

reply to post by juveous


A very well stated and mature post. I agree with you.

The OP asked if abortion is always wrong, so I'm responding to that.
It's always wrong - not illegal, but wrong - except in the case to save
the life of the mother. Abortion stops a beating heart. That's homicide.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Lets not segue here, because itll be a big detour!

But isn't it presumptuous to think that any woman can go against the eternal will of God?

reply to post by juveous

On the other hand, some say until birth, the "child" is under the possession of the mother, who has every right to do what is necessary for the sake of a progressive future.

That could be said of a child after birth.
But when a father or mother kills their child after it is born it is murder.No one argues to the contrary and says that the child is the possession of their parents.

I agree though,the definitions are not very clear and it is something that needs to be dealt with sooner rather than later.

[edit on 16-1-2009 by DantesLost]

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
But isn't it presumptuous to think that any woman can go against the eternal will of God?

People go against the Will of God everyday.
We have free will and every time we sin it is against His Holy Will.

Theologically speaking there is

- God's Permitting Will
- God's Ordaining Will.

God permits sin. God ordains life.

Hey, what if a girl was raped by Dick Cheney, and ended up pregnant with a human\demon hybrid?

I can't believe how many people here think rape victims should be forced to carry their attacker's child. The woman's rights should take priority whether or not it's a human being from the moment of conception. It wasn't her choice to engage in sexual activity. Unfortunately all a man needs to do to become a father is have an orgasm whereas a woman has to go through nine months of discomfort plus the pain of childbirth-and that's whether she enjoyed it or not or was WILLING or not.

Extremely unfair!

I hate abortion there is another way why dont they induce labor abortion they tare up the baby inside you. I will tell you I had my labor induced I was 5 months a long I went to find the sex of my baby the baby looked great tell they got to the heart They said he had a big hole in his heart I went to childrens hospital in okland ca they saw that he had no left heart chamber there is not much they can do for this they told me I would be at risk having this baby At the time I had a two year old at home I had no choice but to let him go so my heart is still broken I had my labor induced he died quickly after birth he died in my arms.I want to let you know sometime you have to let them go Im not for people to
abort their babys unless something is very wrong. I do love him even if he is not here.
please dont judge me because I have been Judged by some christians but God told me
I was going to lose him he let me feel death before I found out .

reply to post by christianlove


I am very sorry for your loss.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Now, see you've changed your word from murder to homicide. You're the one with the fault in logic here. What you fail to see is that it is NOT done "just to make the mother's life easier", here it is you who is blind and selfish.

What about the teen girls that get pregnant? Many of them are disowned by their families, so you can say goodbye to the help there. And while you may preach up, down and sideways about adoption but that has numerous flaws in that system as well.

You are making no actual point of argument other than your opinion that abortion is wrong. It's obviously not murder because the very definition of the word rules that out. It's not done just to make the mother's life easier, no one ever really can prove that, or at least you people never do.

It seems like you would prefer that girls try and perform abortions illegally and pose more danger to themselves. Or that you'd like the rate of abandoned children to skyrocket. And I guess it wouldn't matter to you if there were even more girls dropping out of school to raise babies. Yeah, a real great world you've got there.

Maybe, if we prevent enough abortions, we could end up like China complete with child bearing restrictions! Wouldn't that just be wonderful!?

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
Now, see you've changed your word from murder to homicide.

Doesn't matter. Call it either.
Abortion is murder. Abortion is homicide.
Both definitions mean that one person stops anothers heart from beating.
And that's what happens in abortion.

it is you who is blind and selfish.

wrong. Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.
But you are still wrong.

Thanks to all who participated in this debate.

I wanted to essentially know your personal views on abortion.

I think what was put forth by some is that abortion is wrong because they consider it murder, as they consider a fetus a human being with intrinsic human rights.

I could ask "why" do you think a fetus is a human being with full human rights; but it would only end in semantics and each person drawing the line in another place.


So instead how about this: Would you support a repeal of Roe vs Wade?

reply to post by TasteTheMagick

We need to unnecessarily overpopulate orphanages so that eventually we can be like China!

So is your concern for over population of the planet or for the fact that its the woman's body she can do wants she wants? And does doing what she wants include ignoring the father's choice,if he wants the child that is?