Reports suggest Israeli forces using cluster bombs in Gaza

Originally posted by Animal

What? Could you clarify this please I am having a hard time following? Thanks.

My point is I have seen zero proof that this is what Israel is doing, and it seems that everyone is quick to label them with war crimes, and I find it strange that those same people see the 3000 plus civilian killings per month in the past done by secular fighting and political based groups against the US in Iraq, as not that big of a deal since those attacks on civilians are done to disrupt the US efforts, but we still see a lot of civilians targeted daily and no one is really suggesting what these groups are doing are war crimes and should be stopped.

x2 posts

[edit on 5-1-2009 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by Animal

What? Could you clarify this please I am having a hard time following? Thanks.

My point is I have seen zero proof that this is what Israel is doing, and it seems that everyone is quick to label them with war crimes,

It is hard to not label the State of Israel as the perpetrator of War Crimes simply based on the definition of such crimes and the actions of the State of Israel.

and I find it strange that those same people see the 3000 plus civilian killings per month in the past done by secular fighting and political based groups against the US in Iraq, as not that big of a deal since those attacks on civilians are done to disrupt the US efforts,

First off I do not know of any one who think the 3000+ civilian killings per year ore okay, can you point out a SINGLE poster here on ATS who has even alluded to this?

Also while you may be correct that these attacks have the goal of 'disrupting; US efforts, however I think if you really look at Iraq it is quite obvious that these killings are the result of 'in-fighting' amongst the various cultural / tribal groups int he area and have nothing to do with the USA.

but we still see a lot of civilians targeted daily and no one is really suggesting what these groups are doing are war crimes and should be stopped.

Are you talking about Iraq or Israel / Palestine here mate? If it is Iraq I am honestly not sure they would be charged with war crimes as the killings are internal and thus more humanitarian crimes or crimes against humanity, I cant say for sure.

If you are talking about Israel people are talking about the targeting of civilians all the time and people are calling out both sides of the conflict for their killing of civilians.

We noticed this a couple days ago, I thought it looked like cluster bombing, but I am no munitions expert.

Here is a vid:

Cluster Bombs on Gaza?

Originally posted by xxpigxx
Sorry for all you PC people . . . but war is war.

There is an old saying:

All is fair in love and war.

Throughout history, you will see that the quickest way to beat someone in war is to bring the civilian population to its knees.

This is soooo true. Some folks seem to think the Geneva conventions are like the Marquis of Queensbury rules for boxing - to make sure it's a fair fight.

Earth to the PC people. War is a terrible thing, but if you must fight one, you do EVERYTHING you can to win. Why? To keep on living yourself.

reply to post by centurion1211


Targeting Civilians? Really mate, you'd go there? You would kill the innocent in order to "bring you enemy to its knees"?

You doubt the validity of the Geneva Convention and the rules involving military engagement?

if that is the case you must also then support Hamas and the other facets of the Palestinian movement who launch rockets into Israel to 'repel' the invading and occupying force. Right?

Originally posted by Animal
reply to post by centurion1211

 

Targeting Civilians? Really mate, you'd go there? You would kill the innocent in order to "bring you enemy to its knees"?

You doubt the validity of the Geneva Convention and the rules involving military engagement?

if that is the case you must also then support Hamas and the other facets of the Palestinian movement who launch rockets into Israel to 'repel' the invading and occupying force. Right?

No, I'm simply suggesting that many of the people here posting thousands of words on the subject have no real understanding of what war is and what it sometimes requires a country to do in order to win (aka not be defeated and have your country and way of life destroyed).

Looking back at WWII, imagine if the internet was available and we had the same types of people posting about how we were being so "mean" to the innocent German and Japanese people. All the while choosing to ignore the atrocities perpetrated by the German and Japanese militaries.

Now chances are that wouldn't have actually happened during WWII because people were much more supportive of the war effort back then. They no doubt realized the consequences of losing ...

Originally posted by bignick
Pardon my ignorance but what is wrong with using cluster bombs ?

Basically cluster bombs don't always explode on impact. It actually doesn't make sense for Israel to be using them, since their people are going to get their legs blown off by dormant cluster bombs when they go to take the land, it's setting up problems for the future, just like land mines.

The other problem with cluster bombs is that they're not accurate, other than the fact that they always hit the ground. Using cluster bombs is not typically the weapon of choice for an incisive air raid.

[edit on 5-1-2009 by Lazyninja]

reply to post by centurion1211


You do a poor job of explaining your position. You are very clear when you say:

This is soooo true. Some folks seem to think the Geneva conventions are like the Marquis of Queensbury rules for boxing - to make sure it's a fair fight.

Earth to the PC people. War is a terrible thing, but if you must fight one, you do EVERYTHING you can to win. Why? To keep on living yourself.

So how is it the standard does not evenly apply? To me it seems that although your statement works both ways your bias prevents you from seeing it.

Sadly this means there can be no 'discussion' with you as your point of view is already decided and can not and will not change.

Originally posted by xxpigxx
Sorry for all you PC people . . . but war is war.

There is an old saying:

All is fair in love and war.

Throughout history, you will see that the quickest way to beat someone in war is to bring the civilian population to its knees.

So I suppose you condone suicide bombings or are you going to squeal about that?


Second line; you have a pig avatar hence the 'squeal'.

[edit on 023131p://pm3119 by masonwatcher]

Originally posted by t0ken
Israel has used depleted uranium ammo, now clusters and next they will be using daisy cutters.

If Hamas rockets still don't stop than i guess mini-nuke might be an option for israel.

If Hamas doesn't stop launching them with the daisy cutters going off, it means Israel is launching them.

Depleted uranium? Nice, this proves basically that Israel has no intention of using the land after this conflict is over and everyone has been driven out. That or they're ignorant of the long term effects of DU rounds.

Originally posted by WSPfan
We noticed this a couple days ago, I thought it looked like cluster bombing, but I am no munitions expert.

Here is a vid:

Cluster Bombs on Gaza?

Could be flares...looking through NVGs even a little light can seem like a lot. You would not normally see anything with Cluster bombs. They are basically 100s or 1000s of little bomblets. Some are round and some are flat that can fit in the palm of your hand.

They are dispensed from a larger canister that many times floats down with a parachute to allow a low yield explosion to scatter these bomblets over an area. They then can explode on impact or are time charge, pressure charge etc.

Originally posted by bignick
Pardon my ignorance but what is wrong with using cluster bombs ?

Cluster Bombs kill indiscriminately
anyhow im not supprised Israel did the same in Lebonen when they used indiscriminately in Towns and Farms,

on one side we have them on TV saying how they arent targeting civilians and only hamas, and on the other hand they use weapons that kills without discrimination


reply to post by centurion1211


We learn from our mistakes from world war one and world war two
the main two wars which have sculptured the Genva convention and other Rules of Engagment,

Not Re-enact them.



[edit on 5-1-2009 by bodrul]

reply to post by bodrul


off topic: hi bodrul; if you have enough time please be back to here and write more, we need sober, peaceseeking minds like you.

topic mode on: look at this www.aljazeera.com...

US, China and Russia refused to ban cluster bombs. Just before this attack in December 2008.

It is very clear that every act of Israel is a very well planned and detailled scenario of bringing death to people, in order to repress them absolutely. This is a very dangerous plan, since it radicalizes many people against themselves.

Yeah cluster bombs were banned for use in Iraq I think. They're on the list with white phosphorous, and soon hopefully UD rounds.

The only place cluster bombs are supposed to be used is in normal war type situations. But war has changed a lot, and more recently it's not about an army vs another country's army. But an army vs a ragtag group of pissed off citizens (or terrorists) So cities are the new battlegrounds, lovely.

reply to post by Xtrozero


no, definitely not flares.

There is vid of these being used along side of flares. Plus the smaller pieces that fall appear to detonate upon impact.

but we still see a lot of civilians targeted daily and no one is really suggesting what these groups are doing are war crimes and should be stopped.

I don't think anyone is suggesting it because it's blatantly obvious. There is no point saying that terrorist activity resulting in civvie deaths are equal to war crimes, it just goes without saying for the most part.

For me I have a real hard time understanding why we still fight terrorism with WW2 tactics. War has changed too much to use those old weapons and strategies. You need intelligence and stuff to destroy small cells, that is why we have satellite weapons, sniper rifles, special forces.

War is hell isn't it?

ARe you forgetting that the whole object of war is to kill people and break things.

Why does it matter how it is done?

reply to post by OhZone


because , you know there are things like the geneva conventions getting in the way

pesky laws on war those , you know like not targetting civilians , and small details like that