What's wrong with Africa?!

NEW RULERS OF THE WORLD: www.youtube.com... - interesting African economic slavery doc.

Thanks for your interest Footfall.

It's great to debate dontcha think!

What does STFU mean? Strong Tea For You?
Seals Taste Freakin Ugly? Please explain.

Since you're so eager to learn, I've got another doc for you. Just click on the link.

EDIT: I see you've added me as a respected friend! Yippie!



[edit on 28-12-2008 by HiAliens]

[edit on 28-12-2008 by HiAliens]

[edit on 28-12-2008 by HiAliens]

[edit on 28-12-2008 by HiAliens]

reply to post by Raustin


You pose an excellent question. The answer is very complex and it involves delving into the history and effects of colonialization and the power vacuum that ensues when the colonizers leave. Check out the following movies by National Geographic scientist Dr. Jared Diamond: Guns, Germs, and Steel. I think you will find his research to answer most, if not all, of your questions.

I strongly recommend adding this movie to your personal library if you can do it.

reply to post by footfall


What you read is hogwash. There has never been documented any PROOF of racial intellectual superiority on a genetic basis. Sounds like some eugenic social darwinism propaganda.

Originally posted by BlumanChu
What you read is hogwash. There has never been documented any PROOF of racial intellectual superiority on a genetic basis. Sounds like some eugenic social darwinism propaganda.

Other than thousands of years of REALITY there is no proof at all! Cause building cities, writing, mathematics, medicine, the wheel, agriculture, and even modern day academic scores are not proof. Nope. Not a shred. Just all myth. Move along...nothing to see here.

Hmmm...I don't know if I can answer the OP with what I think is wrong with Africa, because I think that has already been answered. It is strange to look at these other countries and wonder why? why they are so technologically inferior to the rest of the world. There are some tribes out there that still throw spears at the sight of a helicopter.

I honestly think it was those that rebelled against traditional norms. Maybe they were the "nerds" or who ever, but I think who ever it was had to be rebellious in nature. You look at African culture and they do speak a lot of power and peace, and still hold tribal traditions in dance and 'magic'. I think it was those who were either cast out, or did not see the societies customs fit for their own desires, thus left to create their own. whoever stayed, kept what they knew, kept their traditions, and didn't really change.

I think when we look at the majority of nations in "material poverty" we can't help but to compare, but is it so that they have only been sheltered within "their norms"?. Sickness in Africa was normal; malaria was caused by demons' - when you don't change your norms, things stay the same, word of mouth is the truth, and it is passed down, with the same answers.

all I had.

ATTENTION: Check my other posts for the real answers to this question

WHY HAS NO ONE ANSWERED THIS QUESTION:
To what extent are the I.M.F and other banking organisations responsible for famine, poverty and lack of healthcare in Africa?

Again,
Two camps.
1) The closet white-supremacists.
2) And those that talk about social-historial stuff.

Not one mention of DEBT at all.

Supreme arrogance all round. I have posted many links that are completely ignored. Secondly, I've posted a question that no-one even dares to try and actually answer!

Unbelievable.

How many of you all have visited Africa/any developing country /// or STUDIED the matter in depth?




[edit on 28-12-2008 by HiAliens]

Sorry nobody shares your obsession, but let's face it, the IMF didn't turn the Hutu and Tutsi on one another, they didn't draw the unstable borders or landlock all of those nations, and they aren't bringing in the guns. Outside interests created division, which prevented development, which caused poverty, which causes those nations to fall into debt, which is where the IMF finally comes in. You're obsessing over a symptom, not a cause.

Hmm.. I would think that the question which the op asked is pretty obvious.
For those people who say "colonisation, so what?" are completely miss-guided.

Colonisation in Africa has been the most brutal and savage form, which any continent as witnessed. Except ofcours for the almost ethnic clensings in North America and Australia.

The African countries were split up in the Berlin Conference in 1884, by the European nations with pencils and rulers. Great African kingdoms and ethnic groups were split up and thrown together. There is the first straw which still escalates violence inbetween groups in Africa. Imagine the French and Prussians (now modernly known as Germans) were put together in one country back in the 1800's. Internal confilct with politics, nationalism, etc. would arise. Even if the tribes weren't hostile overtowards one another in the first place, they soon would become due to nationalism, biased politicians, police etc. Thats the issue in the Great Lakes Region, in Eastern Africa with the Hutu and Tutsi, which sparked the genocide and the never ending immigration of refugee's of both ethnic groups.
Some "infastructure" may have been established by some of the colonising countries, but this was all for their own good. E.g. the railway networks and sea ports so the resources could easily be transported back "home."
Apart from being literally raped from their resources and held back from their own sustainable development, the western powers still influnce the African countries alot.
Western nations support and finance certain leaders for their own benefits and profits. For example Mobutu Sese Seko, one of the worst dictators of Africa, was supported greatly by the US, Belgium and France. Then we have other situations with wars, where western nations choose a side for their own benefit, or simply support both sides to keep the war going. We all know that war is the most profitable business (As we can see today with Iraq, the US troops are there to keep unrest and fights and to set up that military base.) With war you can aide sides with food, firearms, donations at interest rates and so on. = Big big money. In Burundi and Rwanda, the pre-colonial power, Italy, kept aiding and supporting both sides (Hutus and Tutsis) as they started to fight for power. The Nigerian Civil War is another example showing how the pre-colonial powers have persuaded unrest and war. The Igbo people were being persecuted in their country, and an Igbo general decided a sussesion; creating their own country for the Igbo people called Biafra. Sounds very reasonable dosn't it? BUT, the British would loose alot of oil since Biafra was located to the South-East, where the oil resevoirs are. So, they supported and armed the mainly-Muslim north to take back the Biafran soil. A blockade on the Biafrans ports was established and sanctions from the West, leading to a famine and thousands of dying from hunger.

Another important thing to keep in mind effecting African countries with their "endless suffering" is the relationship which the west has with the countries. The true genocide in Rwanda killed almost 2 million people. By the time the mass killing had begun, the UN was still in doubt if it was a genocide or not, and sent minicular few peacekeepers. While they sent around 45,000 peacekeepers in Yoguslavia+ the Balkans. In many cases; if the West dosn't have any benefit, then they simply don't care. Then we have the trade prices and the ludacris debts which the African countries are in. We all know that 80% of the products in our supermarkets come from Africa (atleast the exotic goods) however, with unfair trade prices African economies earn almost nothing for their products.

The first step to try and help African countries is to end the restricted trade borders and give fair market prices to their goods, aswell as eliminating the ridicolous debts which most African countries have to pay back.
However, Greed and Corruption is still at large...

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Sorry nobody shares your obsession, but let's face it, the IMF didn't turn the Hutu and Tutsi on one another, they didn't draw the unstable borders or landlock all of those nations, and they aren't bringing in the guns. Outside interests created division, which prevented development, which caused poverty, which causes those nations to fall into debt, which is where the IMF finally comes in. You're obsessing over a symptom, not a cause.

Sorry nobody shares your obsession

That's kind of patronising. Trying to spin it like it's my personal thing. Are you aware of the organisations that have been campaigning against the I.M.F. for years?

Well at least we can debate something now. The IMF is not the only factor, but it is a major factor. And so far the "Debate" has managed to ignore it completely.

Secondly, Symptoms vs Cause. Africa was in a bad state before the IMF appeared, true, but the debt excacerbates the civil wars, the tribalism, and therefore the demand for guns. The evils feed off each other and we end up with a viscious cyle.

Outside interests created division,

this is pretty vague. Who/When/Why?

... which prevented development, which caused poverty, which causes those nations to fall into debt, which is where the IMF finally comes in.

Again, this is either spin or a misunderstanding of how the IMF works. They will often OFFER money, knowing full well that a dictator is corrupt. There is no "finally comes in" as they are often the instigators of the debt cycle.

There is huge corruption, no doubt, but these institutions know this. The primary aim is to shackle a country to a debt it can't pay, cause a default, then move in with a S.A.P and buy the infrastructure for dirt cheap. Complete takeover by stealth.

Sure, IMF is not the only cause. The main point I want to get across is Africa is being ruined by covert western intervention, which involves a multiplicity of organisations...

[edit on 28-12-2008 by HiAliens]

What's wrong with Africa?!
proxy war´s
Arms dealing
puppet government´s
slave labor
The coming of the yellow people
starvation
greedy corporations
and i could go on.

I cant believe the idiotic comments on the first page about the black people being more stupid than any other race , and that being the cause of what they are today.

[edit on 28-12-2008 by dracodie]

HiAliens Excellent posts, although you may be flogging a dead horse, u see some people are plain ignorant they believe they are superior but really end up inferior.

Cause vs symptoms Hmmmm

well i see it like this when a country overcomes one cause a new one is introduced to replace it, so symptoms must be part of the cause or the new cause?

The imf are big time mf they are the main reason right now.

oh i almost forgot i know a man in the nigerian military, he is a high ranking general and over in the uk buying arms. anyway i was having dinner with him and i was complaining the africans are stupid for selling all the natural wealth to forieners it doesnt make sense i said.

He turned to me and said the president had to sell his oil bloc to the americans as he was warned if not they would cause a coup and replace him and still get it. the americans warned there would be trouble if they dont co-operate.

Well good luck hialiens i hope you get through to someone.

reply to post by BlumanChu


I have meant to borrow Guns, Germs, and steal from my Dad. He said it was excellent but I keep forgetting. Thanks for the reminder.

Thanks too to HiAliens, I appreciate your posts.

Originally posted by Ktadie
Colonisation in Africa has been the most brutal and savage form, which any continent as witnessed. Except ofcours for the almost ethnic clensings in North America and Australia.

Don't forget the 20+ million natives of South America.

That is the almost ironic thing about Africa. It was the western power's first attempt at colonization and it failed miserably because they didn't just kill everyone who resisted.

The places that are thought of as having the most savage form of colonization are in the long run more stable.

Originally posted by Ktadie
The first step to try and help African countries is to end the restricted trade borders and give fair market prices to their goods, aswell as eliminating the ridicolous debts which most African countries have to pay back.
However, Greed and Corruption is still at large...

That will only get you part of the way there but it is a good step.

The truth Africa is in a unique position in that it suffers as a result of three major things:
1) The western powers.
--The focus of at least half of the discussion on this thread.
2) Tons of untapped mineral wealth.
--The other half of the discussion.

Ultimately those two things exist because the African nations never developed adequately to seriously defend themselves militarily. There is only one recent period, while the European powers were falling to pieces, that the upper Africans were superior in any way, much less the total domination they managed to achieved.

Before that you have to go back 2-3 thousand years or so to get to the great and mysterious central African civilizations. The reason they never progressed as well as the other civilization at the time is simple:
3) The climate changes.
--The continent was in the midst of radical climate change for most of the time that Europe and Asia and India were developing.

Africa goes from being a lush continent with regular rains to a drying grassland to a continent with the worlds largest desert - a desert that still grows at an enormous rate every year - in only the last few thousand years. This had an enormously destructive effect on the population's ability to form stable communities.

Civilizations require a surplus of labor to fuel the requisite building, learning, teaching, and planning activities. That surplus of labor only exists in periods of adequate food and farming.

Yet farming in a place that is quickly and unpredictably drying out is fool's gamble. It is far better to hunt and keep moving. Follow the herds for food and water as the land dries. Before long civilizations become just a legend and their ancient knowledge lost.

Jon

reply to post by Voxel


Nice post, well thought out I appreciate it.

Not to divert the thread but Egypt is not the only country with pyramids. Alot about Africas history has been lost due to no written documents or Orallly passing it down. Even today certain foods that are native to certain countries are being lost due to lack of the knowledge being passed down.

Forget the idiots claiming Northern africa was european mixed with blacks. puhlease even the northern africans as much as they hate to admit will finally admit thats a load of crap. Africa is a cursed continent, this is something very spiritual that needs to be investigated. Some elders and chiefs in various African nations theories that something way in the past was done to out this curse upon that continent. What it was that sparked it no one knows yet, what was once the cradle of civilization is now turned to ruins.


The people of Africa in the past had a vast knowledge of the earth and how to harness it's power and I think somewhere down the line it was abused, i think power and "GREED" was the root of the issue.

Originally posted by HiAliens
ATTENTION: Check my other posts for the real answers to this question

WHY HAS NO ONE ANSWERED THIS QUESTION:
To what extent are the I.M.F and other banking organisations responsible for famine, poverty and lack of healthcare in Africa?

Wow, someone needs a hug here. We've been listening to you my friend and most of us agree that the world is raping Africa. We're in complete agreement with you, two thumbs up. woooohoooo......

It's just that the rest of us are discussing the why and how it came to happen, not the fact that it is happening. We all agree on that.

We are discussing how this came to be, not the fact that it's actually happening.

We agree with you. The I.M.F is raping Africa, so is Debeers for their diamonds and everyone else for anything they might have of value.

How did this happen?

The theory I put forth on the first page of this thread is that those who were weak were drivin out of Africa and in order to survive had to learn how to think. They had to inovate, conspire, become ruthless. That gave them the advantage to eventually return to Africa as the I.M.F.

The world is taking advantage of Africa because quite frankly, they are a nation of idiots. It's like taking candy from a baby, except instead of candy the world is taking diamonds, gold, platinum, oil, rubber.....everything except the sand. They can keep the sand.

YES, The I.M.F. is having a field day there.

We are all in agreement that the raping of a continent is occurring. You want to point out one culprit and yell. The rest of us are discussing the underlying cause.

Get on the boat or swim away.

Had to edit: This stupid computer cant spell worth a damn.

[edit on 28-12-2008 by mrwupy]

Seriously, the truth is just too unpopular. Africa's problem is africans. Sub-saharan africans are not modern humans. Love them or hate them, it does not matter. We expect too much from them, they have never advanced beyond building simple huts. An african boy wired his house for electricity and they flew him to new york for an awards ceremony last year. That's where the bar is set.

That's not attacking any groups, that's just what the facts are.

Because there is only so much wealth in the world and it is already tied up in the US, EUROPE, and the middle east.

What wealth does make it to Africa is taken by the government and used for weapons and war and doesn't make it to the people.

Even most food aid doesn't make it to the people.
You have a massive, unbelievable, class divide. There are companies there, like in Nigeria, that bring in a lot of money but it never makes it past the government.

They are all basically dictatorships. And the people are dying and starving from disease and illness from the result of the pollution of the companies.

Why do you think Bill Gates is putting all of his money into Aids Research?

It is to redistribute wealth. But instead of a monatery donation that the governments would just take, the individual research centers would take it, use it for a cure that will bring them money, and the money will still manage to filter into the society through the facilities. He is using the AIDS epidemic as a means to distribute around the government.

Originally posted by BlumanChu : (accurate statement)
"What you read is hogwash. There has never been documented any PROOF of racial intellectual superiority on a genetic basis. Sounds like some eugenic social darwinism propaganda."




Sonya610 : (Response)
"Other than thousands of years of REALITY there is no proof at all! Cause building cities, writing, mathematics, medicine, the wheel, agriculture, and even modern day academic scores are not proof. Nope. Not a shred. Just all myth. Move along...nothing to see here."


BluManChu is correct, attempting to place blame on Africa's current situation based on genetic superiority flies in the face of science.

Furthermore some of the great educational institutions in Europe and Americas were built with Capital that was sourced from African Diamond and Gold mines, Manganese, Tantalum, Iron, exotic wood forests, etc, etc. The profits from African ventures went to European interests.


Secondly,
Much of your list was developed in Africa. Thru seafaring cultures and trade it spread to other continents and developed further.

Africa is treated like a piggy bank of resources for wealthy Nations. When a Nation stands up to Western European encroachment ( Iran, Venezuela, Congo, Central America, Chile, etc) their leaders are assassinated and or nation placed into debt relationships that squeeze Capital from the economy.

The History of Africa needs to be understood first, then we can debate the underlying causes.




[edit on 28-12-2008 by Hallberg Rassy]

Very interesting. I agree that Africa could quickly become a super power because of it's abundant resources and I think Western nations are preventing this. But most people here are saying that Africans are lazy and stupid so that's why Africa is so undeveloped. I agree that Africans need start fighting and uniting but I don't think racism is the answer for Africa's problems.

Also I find it funny that some here believe that Africa has always been in it's present state. I believe that Africa was great in very ancient times. Before westerners started recording his-story. Africa was conqured and for the last few thousands years have become the worst 3rd world country. No one reins forever. And no one truly can say what happened 50,000 years+ ago. No one can really be sure if history is truly accurate or made up to suit someones agenda. We can only speculate, but if anyone truly believes that anicent Africans did not invent the wheel he or she is living in a dream world.

HiAlien thanks for the video and great post!