What's wrong with Africa?!

Originally posted by truth_seeker3
Its quite easy to explain. In the middle ages, Africa was ruled by confederations of native tribes and inter-continental trade. It was peaceful.

Then the Europeans invaded and colonized, enforcing western beliefs and government systems. Democracy cannot work in an environments where there are many different long-rooted tribal factions all wanting power.

Old roots bring new problems. That's why it will take a while for Democracy to take root there. First, they must take out all the old long-held grudges and assumptions if they are to become prosperous.

I agree, and we should step aside. Howver, due to the huge resource amount, that'll never happen. I would also wonder how peaceful these tribes were if they had all these "long-held grudges and assumptions". Isn't that a contradiction? "It was so peaceful till the white man came and didn't understand how much we hated each other", is what you're basically saying.

Originally posted by RaustinThat Africa has never been truly united? A lot of places have never been truly united, but are still not as bad. We are talking about a continent of failure, not a country.

Well Northern Africa (Egypt) is not a failure. They are not super rich but they have pretty normal life expectancies, they are are not ravaged by AIDS, preventable diseases, or constant famines. But then again Egypt is inhabited by Egyptians.

Originally posted by troos1
reply to post by Raustin

 

I would expect that 100's of years of colonization had something to do with it.

I'm fed up with hearing apologies and excuses for Africa, ranging from slavery to colonialism to exploitation. Take a long hard look at Africa and you'll see that swathes of it are a mess because of Africans themselves. If Africans really want to avoid all the liberal hectoring and preaching that the West does so well, then I say to you - clear out the corruption yourselves (perhaps start with that vicious, destructive windbag Mugabe) and get on with making a continent worth living on.

reply to post by hvywgt250


I don't know if I consider these points excuses. Many seem to be valid reasons for the regions instability. I would like to see the people try a little harder though. Seems like a continent of victims.

Originally posted by hvywgt250

I'm fed up with hearing apologies and excuses for Africa, ranging from slavery to colonialism to exploitation. Take a long hard look at Africa and you'll see that swathes of it are a mess because of Africans themselves. If Africans really want to avoid all the liberal hectoring and preaching that the West does so well, then I say to you - clear out the corruption yourselves (perhaps start with that vicious, destructive windbag Mugabe) and get on with making a continent worth living on.

Hem, presumably that goes for any country including the United States.
May I suggest holding on to that stone a wee bit longer.





[edit on 12/27/2008 by schrodingers dog]

if you want to blame colonisation for africa`s woes - first explain why india had prospered

I asked my father a very similar question some months ago. He lived as a missionary in East Africa for 28 years. Loves the African people-not in a patronizing way but as equals AND friends. I lived there 8 years as a young teenager. I still hold a deep love for the continent and it's people.
That does not make me an expert. I believe that the answer to the question is not easy or uncomplicated. However, I'll give it my two cents.
I resist the naive notion that Africa consisted of tribes living in peace and harmony, overflowing with milk and honey until the blight of colonialism struck down the equatorial garden of Eden. Africa is TRIBAL, it must be understood as such even today. Like any other collection of tribes, some get along, some don't, some don't want to. Just like North American native tribes. Some advanced, some primitive. some peaceful, others warlike.
I believe a good example is Shaka of the Zulu (1787-1828). He took a small clan and built it into a Kingdom of around 250,000 people through a method of previously unknown method of warfare, inflicting casualties previously unknown in local traditional wars and assimilated conquered tribes into his own. He was a brutal, violent man who ruled and executed by whim and was in turn assasinated. No European influenced his method of rule or war. He used no european weapons or warfare tactics. He was a military dictator who became corrupted by power.
As Africa is tribal, it's people are accustomed if not acclimated to being ruled by a single leader. Some tribes do have a cabal of elders who oversee villages but most tribes have a leader who is fairly free to exercise his will.
Africa was primitive in the ways of communication. No real systems of roads in many places, no large ocean-going vessals, not an efficient way of communicating or traveling significant distances. Many tribes rarely came in contact with more than a few of their immediate neighbors. Europeans did bring better means of travel, communications and weapons. These brought more tribes in conflict with each other as well as more efficient ways to wage conflict.
Europeans (in the african sense-white people) did bring exploitation of resources including slavery. Slavery was not brought to Africa by Europeans. It was practiced by the Arabs/Middle Eastern societies for hundreds if not thousands of years prior to the arrival of Europeans. Vast portions of eastern and central Africa were plundered for it's human resource and stolen away. There has been a vast drain of it's people due to slavery both on the western and eastern coasts. There's where many "geeks" went.
European colonialization had many flaws and abuses. It did bring medicine to Africa and Africa still needs such basic medical care. Aids treatment, yes, but have you seen deaths due to Malaria? I had a classmate in school die of rabies! Colonial administrations failed to train nationals in meaningful posts. Some of this was by design to keep africans "in their place" and partially due to attutudes that african could not learn to handle more complex duties. When European powers left, there was a vaccuum of administrators, technical and financial experts. Untrained or half-trained nationals had responsibilities thrust on them beyond their levels of training (not capability). "Strong-man"-ism took over. Strong-men resorted to tribalism in filling posts. Strong-men resorted to nespotism to filling financially lucrative positions. Corruption abounded. European weapons kept strong-men in power. Lack of infrastructure keeps countries poor and struggling. Non-African countries wanting african resources prop up strong-men (this applies to countries such as China and Russia) to gain favor and access to those resources.
I'll continue on a second part later. Forgive the grammer and spelling.

reply to post by Raustin


Africa is just in a prolonged slump at the moment due to AIDS and corruption. Lets not forget that this is the continent that built the Great Pyramids. Egypt was a fairly advanced civilization.

Maybe if the US dollar is destroyed North America will go into a thousand-year slump of our own.

But what about the rest of the continent during the golden age of Egypt?

By the way, for those who think Africa is an unredeemable failure, the Somalis are the only multi-tribal muslim society ever to write their own liberal democratic constitution. (Edit to add: but America won't recognize their nation)

It's not like there's nothing good in Africa- they just have A LOT to contend with both in terms of disadvantage and outright oppression.

[edit on Sat Dec 27 2008 by The Vagabond]

reply to post by mrwupy


i was gunna say the same thing as your first post here hahaha

This won't earn me any friends, but I'll say it anyways.

I'm sick and tired of hearing about Africa. In a three minute commercial here in Norway, there were over four "Please give money to Africa" commercials on, with a quick commercial for "Hits for Kids Number XX" inbetween.

I don't know why Africa is so far behind and lacking in any skills what so ever. No clue, and I doubt colonization hurt any, if anything, helped.

We've sent down so many resources to Africa, millions upon millions of aid money, we've sent medical experts, we've done everything. Including bringing their filth (crime) into our countries by means of immigration.

Just the other day, an elderly woman was beaten for 200kr, which is roughly 25 bucks by an African immigrant. Maybe this is the reason why they can't advance? Because they're too busy looking out for themselves and their desires, isntead of each other and the common good.

Now I know I sweeped all under the same rug, and I apologize. Not everyone is as vile as the above mentioned mugger. But in all honesty, I've only encountered the ugly side.

Peace,
FK

reply to post by The Vagabond


Well, what's good in Africa and do you really think outright oppression is a viable excuse? Every nation has been oppressed, most have overcome.

africa is just the worst place on earth, sorry if that offends any1 but just look at the facts. africa should be used for its natural resources but given up on for anything else, it will never be a good place

reply to post by footfall


Well the point of my thread is why. So why do you think it will never amount to anything? I want some more thoughtful answers. So far I've had two or three that are actually relevant. Enlighten the rest of us.

Edit for some drunken typing, sorry boys and girls.

[edit on 28-12-2008 by Raustin]

reply to post by Raustin


africa will never amount to anything because it is just full of tribes that are at the stage of europe thousands of years ago. they cant catch up they are too backward

reply to post by The Vagabond


wow the only intelligent comment on this whole thread. good job and precisely true.

reply to post by Raustin


You assume everyone is on a level playing field here, and that Africa's faults are entirely attributable to oppression by the major contenders. If you ignore the racial question, you essentially ignore the entire issue. Culture evolves in much the same way as biological systems. Different ideas, like genes, are expressed more frequently upon significant changes in environmental conditions. This is memetic evolution, and this is what gave Europeans such a great advantage. From there, if you take the time to read Africa's long history, you can see exactly how this would lead to the total economic destitution of its original inhabitants.

Superior cultures (def. a society, which passes a unique set of information to each successive generation) have flourished in Africa for a very long time. The Phoenicians settled and produced an empire centered on Carthage. The Romans annexed all of North Africa from them. The great colonial European powers of the 17th to 19th century took complete advantage of that rich continent to the fullest of their extent. Today, multinational corporations originating in societies, which are steeped in thousand year old cultural traditions (influenced from as far back as ancient Greece, i.e. Democracy), from the United States and elsewhere, vie for the continent's resources.

When the colonialists all finally left at the end of this past 20th century, there was very little interest in preserving the integrity of the majority of the continent. Whatever modicum of economic and political stability existed on that continent during the extent of European rule was merely a fabrication, one, which lasted only as long as there was a vested economic interest in supporting Europeans living there.

A solution? Very difficult to imagine one... If only there were some form of capital, which wasn't tied to an national investment interest outside of Africa itself. At this point it seems that only through personal investment and a whole lot of philanthropy can Africa hope to get out of its present situation.

The most common point of contention in threads discussing this very issue is that people get riled up whenever someone mentions Europeans are inherently more intelligent than Africans, as if intelligence was so important to them. Posters that might have been the "dumb kids" during grade school might feel offended by that very notion, and attack anyone suggesting there is some racial reason for Africa's circumstances. I suggest we reflect before making such posts. The only way to progress on this issue is if we candidly disregard human emotions.

Can we please define race? Because so far no one has really attempted to do so. Are we talking eugenics here? I hope not. But if you choose to ignore the fact that modern culture (technological, philosophical, etc.) outside of Africa has become vastly superior, than you are sadly mistaken.

[edit on 28-12-2008 by cognoscente]

reply to post by footfall


I don't buy it. I think they could catch up if they tried. Why the hell don't they try?

A few thing about Africa that make it a special case........

Technology.. No evolutionary drive due to the fact the weather and food sources have always been so stable. You may find the drive for such things are intergenerational.

Aids...... "Traditional" forms of natural contraception methods actually put wives at high risk and promote high risk behavior in men.

Conflict........ Some tribes are as racist towards other tribes as the worst bigot Deep rooted fear and hate abounds.

Colonization......... In short they were only given lessons on "greed" . They understood Power before us , but greed added another dimension. Everything else people claim to have taught them was fluff.