What's wrong with Africa?!

I've read the blame the IMF for lending them money version of events for years and refuse to buy into it. It smacks of the usual colonial/Western World/white man's guilt.

The IMF is asked by emerging African nation leaders for loans to develop education, manufacturing, export, infrastructure, etc. These leaders weren't forced to ask for money, they weren't forced to squander it, mismanage gorssly, or secrete funds into foreign bank accounts. They had responsibilities they did not want to take on, were short-sighted, greedy, and ultimately inhumane to their own people.

Had the IMF refuse them loans, the same guilt cries would be heard still.

I'm not anti-black, but anti ignorance and corruption. Robert Mugabe is the prototype new era African leader. Through his rebellion and Western pressure, the British colonial holdout Rhodesian government has Mugabe as chosen leader. The country is self-sufficient in agriculture and exports to the rest of the continent. Whites have developed a Western style infrastructure and farming that works. Mugabe hands the prosperous white farms to his revolutionary cronies by force. They haven't a clue how to farm and aren't motivated to learn. Punishing and killing whites is more cathartic.

Zimbabweans starve; much of Africa goes hungry because of Mugabe's ignorance, greed and racial hatred. He's killing more black children than white adults in the end.

But intellectual liberals must search for something in the past to rationalize Mugabe's evil that happens not 500 years ago, not 50 years ago, but is still going on iat the end of 2008.

If my boss goes crazy and stasts shooting up the office because he can't repay his bank loans and is losing the company, I don't blame the bank.



Mike F

Other than thousands of years of REALITY there is no proof at all! Cause building cities, writing, mathematics, medicine, the wheel, agriculture, and even modern day academic scores are not proof. Nope. Not a shred. Just all myth. Move along...nothing to see here.

Everyone loves a cynic... Your brand of REALITY implies there are no cities, writing, mathematics, agriculture, medicine, etc in Africa and that Africans had no role in shaping any of them. You also seem to know something about academic scores that indicate Africans are intellectually inferior - I am interested in seeing it. You should check out the movie 'Guns, Germs, and Steel' for some intellectual insight. Who knows, you might actually learn something and even be able to refute my statement instead of adding a little bit of nothing.

Originally posted by mmiichael
I've read the blame the IMF for lending them money version of events for years and refuse to buy into it. It smacks of the usual colonial/Western World/white man's guilt.

Oy, vey! I reflexively roll my eyes whenever someone mentions white guilt. Maybe y'all wouldn't feel so guilty if your ancestors didn't spend the last 2000 years traveling halfway around the world to kill other people in their homes.

Originally posted by mmiichael
The IMF is asked by emerging African nation leaders for loans to develop education, manufacturing, export, infrastructure, etc. These leaders weren't forced to ask for money, they weren't forced to squander it, mismanage gorssly, or secrete funds into foreign bank accounts.

Spoken like someone who has never heard of Structural Adjustment Programs. Yes, in essence they were forced to squander it by neglecting the people aspect of nation building and focusing on resources.

These are the guidelines, as handed down by the IMF and WB, that nations must meet in order to receive future funding. Every one of them is designed to increase dependence on foreign investments while keeping the "developing" country from actually developing:

Cutting social expenditures, also known as austerity
--In countries with poor employment numbers and bad wages, cutting social spending is simply a way to create wage slaves who will do hard work for the basics of living.

Focusing economic output on direct export and resource extraction
--Direct export and resource extraction is another way of saying: DON'T build sustainable vertical industries.

The IMF and WB are saying to developing countries, "Hey, instead of investing in a steel mill to make steel alloys, thereby employing your people... and instead of investing in a auto plant to use your steel, thereby employing your people... just invest in ports and railroads! Why use your God given wealth to help your people?"

Devaluation of currencies (inflation)
--Inflation causes a rise in the costs of the basics for living. In a country with poor employment rates inflation compounds starvation and leads to political and economic instability.

Trade liberalization, or lifting import and export restrictions
--Destroy the local producer. Drive him out of business so that your country can produce nothing.

Privatization, or divestiture of all or part of state-owned enterprises
--Sell off your peoples' assets to foreign powers (international corporations.)

Enhancing the rights of foreign investors vis-a-vis national laws
--Provide guarantees to foreign investors that safe guard their money even while your own people are losing their guarantees to life and liberty.

Roads, water treatment and deliver, sewage handling, education, and housing are things that bring people in the community together and help to create nations.

Ports, railroads, mines, banks, militaries, and stock markets are nothing but tools of plunder. They are simply ways to efficiently extract wealth and labor.

Jon

What could be wrong ? First we - yes we the white advanced and "civilized" men, started selling them as slaves. To work on another continent where "we" the "civilized" killed all the previous inhabitants. Then we "colonized" them.

Now let's blame them because they don't live like us. Stupid people, they can't learn anything.

Hi. I live in Africa.

The biggest problem, from my point of view, is that people of 'African culture' really do fail at any sort of long-term planning. The African mentality is very short-term goal oriented. They do not fear (or just fail to identify) the consequences of retarded actions.

It's not racist or genetic. I think a lot of it really does have to do with the culture itself and not the people's mental abilities (to an extent, doh).

The West knew this would happen, of course. They should have stayed a while longer, until Africans figured out how to walk on their own.

If you want someone to do something properly, you have to give them the proper motivation.

Number of languages spoken in Africa is estimated at ~2,000. That creates barriers.

reply to post by pai mei


They traded people to us for shells. The other question your post brings up is why was everyone else advanced enough to just take them without a fight.

Q: What's wrong with Africa?! A: Muslims

reply to post by Raustin


Read the book "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn. Or "The ascent of humanity" which can be found here free:

www.ascentofhumanity.com...

To most of the roles society offers, I say, "You are made for more than that." We inhabit, in the words of Ivan Illich, "a world into which nobody fits who has not been crushed and molded by sixteen years of formal education."i The very idea of having to be at a job "on time" was appalling to early industrial laborers, who also refused the numbing repetitiveness of industrial work until the specter of starvation compelled them. What truly self-respecting person would spend a life marketing soda pop or chewing gum unless they were somehow broken by repeated threats to survival?

I opened a few threads about these, if I start explaining what I believe about our "civilization" it would take to long, and I did it before.

Look here :
"Behold the lilies of the field,
they neither toil nor sow;
yet God does all things needful yield
that they may live and grow."
I am not christian. I do not care about the bible. What you see above is a quote from it.
I have so much to say , and I don't know where to start, so better say nothing

[edit on 29-12-2008 by pai mei]

I was born in Africa, I lived there for the first 26 years of my life, I have seen the results of the war in the Congo in the 1960's'
I lived close to where Dag Hammarskjöld,, died in a plane crash, I was there when Kenneth Kaunda became President of Zambia.
I lived through the war in then Rhodesia, serving a time in the then Rhodesian Air Force, spent time as a civilian technician when the Air Force of Zimbabwe had Pakistanis as Air and Ground Crews, man was that a F*** up.
I saw the results of robert gabriel mugabe's rise to power,
(name in lower case as an insult to the person).
Saw the rise to power as President of South Africa, Nelson Mandela, a tamed terrorist.
I spent time in Somalia before the war/starvation there in the 1980's, a happy people but doomed by incompetence.
I could name other places and people, if you are clever enough, it isn't hard to fill in the spaces, bokkasa, Idi Amin, Kenya, the list goes on....
Recolonise the Continent, take no prisoners.
My answer to the question of " What's wrong with Africa"....... Too many Kaffirs trying to flog a dead horse.

Scorn me for my thoughts, but have you got an answer to it all.

reply to post by Teeky


Africa indeed has many great ancient kingdoms and civilisations.
The Kingdom og Aksum, the Nubians, Ancient Ghana and Mali, The Mutapa empire and so on. Do some google'ing or check out African Kingdoms

I still think that the west is the blame for Africa's suffering, from the colonial time to present day. Its only ignorance saying that "Africans don't do things for the long run" or that they have bad work ethics, or worst of all that they're genetically in-superior.

To show you how serious the debt issue is;

Zambia spends four dollars on debt service for every one dollar on health while infant mortality rate rises. In Uganda, the government spends US$3 per person annually on health and education and US$ 17 per person annually on debt repayment, while in every 5 Ugandan children die of preventable diseases before reaching the age of 5 years! Between 1990 and 1993, Africa Region did pay US$ 13.4billion annually to its external creditors more than its combined spending on health and education. Yet the African burden continued to rise so that in 1994 alone it increased by 3.2% to US$ 312 billion!
In education, total spending in Sub-Sahara Africa fell in real terms between 1980-1988 from US$ 11 billion to US$ 7 billion. A review of 26 countries shows that a decline in spending per pupil from US$ 133 to US$ 89. Even more serious is the drop in enrollment rates from 71.1% in 1980 to 66.7% in 1990. On average, only 37% of girls enrolled in primary in 1990 and this figure drops after 7-8 years of schooling.

Taken from "Fact Sheet on African Debt"

And please do browse through Clikc Here! to see what I mean about the West still ruining Africa.

Great Question. Sorry, but I have not read the thread...

it is a simple answer though. it is the main reason the world is in the turmoil it is in today...

those two words are:

British Empire

Look up Mr. Cecil E Rhodes and and how these people planned and conspired to literally rule the world and its entire resources.

In many ways they became successful, but I dont believe they were entirely successful, considering Britain is still the puny little island off Europe.

Oh and btw, these people are the stem of many of the "conspiracy theories" that float around today. Illuminati, NWO...add in all the banking and even possibly ufo conspiracies.....yep, I said UFO conspiracies as well...

I was just about to post that when I saw you typed it. Why were other places so powerful and industrialized even thousands of years ago? I think I would rather live in Rome a few thousand years ago than anyplace in Africa now.

Hmm. I think that Rome a few thousand years ago would be a lot worse than Africa today... Even their life expectancy was something like 30 years, worse than in Africa now. You know people were judging Rome by the standards of their day and then that filthy cesspool of cavemen looked really nice to them.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Let's also not forget where the weapons for the conflicts in Africa are coming from. It's not like the rival tribes are manufacturing their own AK-47s. Someone is providing those guns and somebody else is making sure the right people get the money to buy them with.

It's coming from the former colonial powers (who always have done and still are doing far more harm than good) and also from their rivals in Russia and China.

These people see Africa's wealth as theirs and the people on the land as obstacles to be overcome and turned into pawns.

Washington D.C. has a lot more say over who lives and dies in Africa than the African people themselves do.

Well I must confess. I do get regular customers out of Africa. Usually the standard warlord or bored son of a leader who wants some guns. I might sell them some weapons or the occasional Zil-135 or BTR-152. What...I need to make money somehow Seriously though...one of the main problems is the constant flow of arms going in and out of Africa. More guns means more people killing each other and another warlord who thinks he is important.

Originally posted by Voxel

Oy, vey! I reflexively roll my eyes whenever someone mentions white guilt. Maybe y'all wouldn't feel so guilty if your ancestors didn't spend the last 2000 years traveling halfway around the world to kill other people in their homes.

Originally posted by mmiichael
The IMF is asked by emerging African nation leaders for loans to develop education, manufacturing, export, infrastructure, etc. These leaders weren't forced to ask for money, they weren't forced to squander it, mismanage gorssly, or secrete funds into foreign bank accounts.

Yes, in essence they were forced to squander it by neglecting the people aspect of nation building and focusing on resources.

These are the guidelines, as handed down by the IMF and WB, that nations must meet in order to receive future funding. Every one of them is designed to increase dependence on foreign investments while keeping the "developing" country from actually developing:

Cutting social expenditures, also known as austerity
--In countries with poor employment numbers and bad wages, cutting social spending is simply a way to create wage slaves who will do hard work for the basics of living.

Focusing economic output on direct export and resource extraction
--Direct export and resource extraction is another way of saying: DON'T build sustainable vertical industries.

The IMF and WB are saying to developing countries, "Hey, instead of investing in a steel mill to make steel alloys, thereby employing your people... and instead of investing in a auto plant to use your steel, thereby employing your people... just invest in ports and railroads! Why use your God given wealth to help your people?"

Devaluation of currencies (inflation)
--Inflation causes a rise in the costs of the basics for living. In a country with poor employment rates inflation compounds starvation and leads to political and economic instability.

Trade liberalization, or lifting import and export restrictions
--Destroy the local producer. Drive him out of business so that your country can produce nothing.

Privatization, or divestiture of all or part of state-owned enterprises
--Sell off your peoples' assets to foreign powers (international corporations.)

Enhancing the rights of foreign investors vis-a-vis national laws
--Provide guarantees to foreign investors that safe guard their money even while your own people are losing their guarantees to life and liberty.

Roads, water treatment and deliver, sewage handling, education, and housing are things that bring people in the community together and help to create nations.

Ports, railroads, mines, banks, militaries, and stock markets are nothing but tools of plunder. They are simply ways to efficiently extract wealth and labor.


--


Jon, your arguments are valid. I don't know nearly as much about Africa as you do. For the record, none of my ancestors travelled worldwide attacking people in their homes, though I am now classified as such, and I have spent years in the Third World observing gross disparities between potential and actualization.


The IMF may have premeditatedly stackeed the cards against the leaders on new African states, but I don't think that's the whole answer. People can and do learn things and can be creative and innovative when the need arises.

Intelligent people realize or quickly find out the limits of their knowledge and seek advice elsewhere. They can also observe what happens to their peers when confronted with similar situations.

All idealistic sounding, maybe - but it takes a tiny percentage of any country's financial wherewithal to seek viable solutions to problems.

I don't see much of this has happened. I am sympathetic to the reality that uneducated unworldly leaders came into power in African states unprepared for the demands and complexity of maintaining viable economies.

But sophistication can develop within a generation even among the least advanced. Why has this not been the case in Africa?


Mike F

What's wrong with Africa, the World Bank, and the IMF sinking their claws into it.

At least we've got a decent debate going on now. Thanks for backing me up you all. I was holding them off on my own for a while but then the cavalry arrived...

[edit on 29-12-2008 by HiAliens]

[edit on 29-12-2008 by Ktadie]

reply to post by HiAliens


Haha, you're very welcome
I would have replied ages ago if I had discovered this post.

Btw, the youtube vid which you linked is from a great documentary which I advice everyone to download/purchase. Its called The New Rulers of the World, by John Pliger.