Teacher tells 7 year-olds Santa's Fake.

Originally posted by DangerDeath
reply to post by West Coast

 

Their feelings will hurt only if they are being taught to feel sorry for themselves. And your concern for them is just that: you want them to feel like that. You insist that this is how they should feel, and you insist that this is how they must feel whenever the truth hits them. You don't even allow the possibility that they won't feel like that.

You better reconsider such attitude.

[edit on 12-12-2008 by DangerDeath]

So then, if their feelings wouldn`t be hurt, why tell them Santa isn`t real? Why not let them learn on their own if that is the case? Are humans that fragile that if they found out on their own, they may fall to pieces? You think by dumping on them early in life about reality, you are going to save them a little pain in their future? So, if that were the case, we would have to follow our children around the rest of our lives, just to keep filling them in on other things that may come up and haunt them. Wow, I didn`t understand that some pain will cause your life to just fall apart. Wow, I just thought of something else. If we are to fill them in on all this reality stuff that may hurt them, and do it at such a young age, there would be so many things to tell them, we would have to move in with them after they were married, and do nothing but talk about these things 24/7. Sorry, your not going to change very many minds with this story.

I don`t buy it, people grow from learning lifes lessons. Pain such as this never killed anyone. And telling them stories about Santa never killed anyone.

Oh, and by the way, beings you know the "truth" about red light districts, as I said before, go to one and brow beat the ones who use it, and please, let us know how it went.



[edit on 13-12-2008 by FiatLux]

Originally posted by DangerDeath
reply to post by West Coast

 

Their feelings will hurt only if they are being taught to feel sorry for themselves. And your concern for them is just that: you want them to feel like that. You insist that this is how they should feel, and you insist that this is how they must feel whenever the truth hits them. You don't even allow the possibility that they won't feel like that.

You better reconsider such attitude.

Were the kids not excited when they were talking about Mr. Clause?

Is it the teachers place to tell these kids that Mr. Clause does not exist?

It was very immature for this teacher to take matters into her own hands, especially since she will not be the ones buying gifts for these children.

If you choose not to tell your kids about Mr. Clause, fine, so be it. But just because you dont like it, doesnt mean you need to spoil or ruin what is tradition for others.

Think about that...

I honestly can't see how anybody can defend this guy. I am going to explain why too. How is it ok that out of frustration this guy can tell these children that Santa is not real?

Dose it even matter if this person told these children the truth or not?

Guess what! Sometimes people can't handle the truth. When you are 7 years old dose it even matter if you believe Santa Clause is real or not? How is a 7 year old child going to benefit because of the truth? Are you going to tell a 7 year old child that people kill each other just because they can? I'm not.

A child has the rest of their life to find out the truth. Guess what? Sometimes ignorance works out for the best.

When I have children I am going to tell them that santa clause is real. My children are going to know what hope is. Because without hope you can never have anything better. And without having anything better means never progressing.

At what age is it not okay to lie to people? When should children be treated with respect and honesty? When they turn...ten? Eighteen?

I'm amazed by all the people who don't find wonder and mystery in the world as it is. Look at a sunset, take a walk in a forest. Read a good book. There are plenty of real things to be enchanted by in this world without patronising people because of their age. What the hell does Santa Claus have to do with cultivating imagination (there's a scientific study waiting to happen!)?

On a side-note, I can't help but wonder a few things: I wonder about the demographic of people who perpetuate this Santa Claus guff--are they religious? Were their own parents guilty of dishonesty? Are the people who frown upon lying to children religious? Athiests? Are they spread equally about?

Also, I wonder: do the people who lie to children draw the line there? Or are they also inclined to be dishonest in other respects?

I remember, when I was seven years old (back in the 70's), I sat next to a girl who claimed "adults never lie". I don't know for certain, but I can't help but wonder if her parents told her that one. Hopefully she doesn't still believe it.

Good on the teacher for having a sense of morality.

reply to post by Fuggle


"At what age is it not okay to lie to people? When should children be treated with respect and honesty? When they turn...ten? Eighteen?"

Telling little children about Santa Claus is no different then reading them fairy tails from a book. Are we to stop reading them books of this kind because they are made up stories? As it`s been stated before many times now, as we grow out of childhood, we soon learn that these things are not real, some even sooner. So...what`s the big deal? Just something else for people to complain about? Or is it that they believe their sense of morals are better then others?

"I'm amazed by all the people who don't find wonder and mystery in the world as it is. Look at a sunset, take a walk in a forest. Read a good book. There are plenty of real things to be enchanted by in this world without patronising people because of their age. What the hell does Santa Claus have to do with cultivating imagination (there's a scientific study waiting to happen!)?"

I have seen some pretty amazing things in my life time, and I`m 53. I`ve seen many beautiful sunsets, and sunrises. Many walks in the forests, and read many good books myself. Patronizing my kids when they were young about Santa? I may have shared a story that my folks taught me that was fun and full of wonder, and they had no problem with it as they grew up. And they even have taught there kids the same story. I can see you never pictured in your mind all the wondrous things he could do when you were young.

"On a side-note, I can't help but wonder a few things: I wonder about the demographic of people who perpetuate this Santa Claus guff--are they religious? Were their own parents guilty of dishonesty? Are the people who frown upon lying to children religious? Athiests? Are they spread equally about?"

Religious, no, spiritual, yes. If you feel telling the story of Santa is being dishonest, and have to see it that way(which I don`t), then I guess they were, in your book, and so am I. I can`t speak for the rest of your questions.

"Also, I wonder: do the people who lie to children draw the line there? Or are they also inclined to be dishonest in other respects?"

Sorry, I didn`t lie to my kids. In other respects, no. Oh, and if you feel the need to throw stones, please check and see if your house is in order first, ok Mr. Judge?

"I remember, when I was seven years old (back in the 70's), I sat next to a girl who claimed "adults never lie". I don't know for certain, but I can't help but wonder if her parents told her that one. Hopefully she doesn't still believe it."

Since when does that mean they told her that? My, but aren`t we judgemental about this subject. And if she does still believe it, is it any of your business or skin off of your nose if she does? No, not in the least.

"Good on the teacher for having a sense of morality."

So the teacher had the right to blurt that out in front of those kids and make them cry like that? That teacher had no right to make a judgement call like that without the parents knowing about it first. If that were to happen where my kids went to school, that teacher would have been given some time off, or fired. If the teacher felt that parents telling their kids about Santa was wrong, then fine, it`s the teachers right to feel that way, and she should have talked to the parents about this first. Or, was this just a new test the teacher is trying out to see what kind of morals the kids had?














[edit on 13-12-2008 by FiatLux]

so if we are going to stop lying to them, are we going to tell a child for example that his mummy wasnt poorly and went to heaven to watch over him instead we will tell him she had a severe form of cancer that caused severe pain and agony, then she died horribly in pain and now shes in a box six feet under the ground slowly rotting, because thats generally the truth, another good one would be telling a child no we never wanted you its just daddys condom split.
sometimes la lie is ok i think

also are we going to stop children using there imagination because its not proper.
no more playing with toys because they are fake

and why dont we just make them by pass childhood all together and make them get jobs as soon as the start to walk.
what kind of world do we live in well this one





[edit on 13/12/2008 by kerrichin]

reply to post by kerrichin


Good post, a star for you. Yes, we should take all toys away from them, because playing make believe with toys is not moral, because we say so. No more playing pretend, be a grown up the minute you can speak your first word. Oh, and by the way, when you do say that first word......get a job.

I don't really see how this can be debated.

A teacher was punished for NOT LYING. It's unjust, plain and simple.

As far as Santa Claus...

Has it occured to anyone that it's nothing more than a control mechinism, giving lazy parents more leverage over children? Maybe instead of spending so much time defending a myth, they should learn to enforce house rules and teach right + wrong themselves. Hell, because of this crap everyone is stuck on with Santa Claus, I am being pressured to lie just to avoid the tears from my daughter.

One big old false flag elitist conspiracy, I tell ya.

Originally posted by kerrichin


so if we are going to stop lying to them, are we going to tell a child for example that his mummy wasnt poorly and went to heaven to watch over him instead we will tell him she had a severe form of cancer that caused severe pain and agony, then she died horribly in pain and now shes in a box six feet under the ground slowly rotting, because thats generally the truth, another good one would be telling a child no we never wanted you its just daddys condom split.
sometimes la lie is ok i think

also are we going to stop children using there imagination because its not proper.
no more playing with toys because they are fake

and why dont we just make them by pass childhood all together and make them get jobs as soon as the start to walk.
what kind of world do we live in well this one





[edit on 13/12/2008 by kerrichin]

CORRECT!!! Sometimes a lie is okay.

However - how many of YOUlot on here can comment on the DIRECT link between stimulating a child's imagination and the creativity they possess in later childhood, which leads, unltimately to innovation??????????????

What, nobody?????????

A LIE is a fabrication in the truest sense. Fiction...just like santa..
And if the fiction (actually, Santa is technically a Myth, but) of Santa is that bad you better ignore half of the crap on this website, PUT THE WARCRAFT AWAY (you know who you are) and sell all your comics and DVDs........

What, none of you??????? Hmmm, funny....especially how serious Warcraft is taken....

**This teacher was out of order and out of place. Period.

reply to post by systemic.aberration


"I don't really see how this can be debated."

Yes, your right, it`s no ones business.

"A teacher was punished for NOT LYING. It's unjust, plain and simple."

No, a teacher was punished for over stepping boundries where they had no business being.

"Has it occured to anyone that it's nothing more than a control mechinism, giving lazy parents more leverage over children?"

No, it`s just the telling of a story of wonder, fun and giving. So it`s leverage and control in your eyes, right? You may want to tell everyone to never let their kids watch cartoons then, they could end up as workaholic zombies working 9-5 boring jobs with delusions of taking over the world.

"Maybe instead of spending so much time defending a myth, they should learn to enforce house rules and teach right + wrong themselves."


Or, we could spend our time on here arguing with people such as yourself who feel they need to stick their nose where it doesn`t belong. The house rules I had for my kids were enforced and they were taught right from wrong, but, you wouldn`t know that would you? Your just worried about a simple Christmas story being told to kids that you think is a lie.

"Hell, because of this crap everyone is stuck on with Santa Claus, I am being pressured to lie just to avoid the tears from my daughter."

If your having this much moral dilemma over a simple Christmas story, I hate to think what it would be like if it were indeed something drastic. What, do you think you`ll go to he-- for it? Let`s see, I told my kids this story, and I didn`t go there.

"One big old false flag elitist conspiracy, I tell ya.'

Yep, were training our kids to be even greater elitists then ourselves so they can rule the world when were done with it.

Santa Claus, the great conspiracy.....hummmm.......sounds like a best seller. Whood a thunk it.













[edit on 13-12-2008 by FiatLux]

Originally posted by '___'eviant

Originally posted by The Quiet Earth
I used to tutor a profoundly deaf and mentally impaired young man. He was very sweet and entirely innocent and naive.

He once asked me what Santa was brining me for Christmas. He was 15 years old. It wasn’t for me to inform him of the truth. Indeed, I was happy for him that the thought of Santa visiting him made him happy and excited.

As an aside, a number of guys from his school (he was in a normal secondary school) tormented and bullied him. Their pathetic and reprehensible behaviour was sickening.

This isn't really on topic, but how can someone be 'profoundly' deaf? Isn't it just a matter of deaf, hard of hearing, or of standard hearing ability?

'___'eviant

Describing a deaf person as profoundly deaf is a phrase that I’ve picked up. I believe it is used – whether widely or not, I’m not entirely sure – in the UK.

See here for uses of the phrase by British universities and The Guardian newspaper. You’ll also notice, from the Google search that I've included, that the phrase appears in a number of journal articles, too.

Profoundly Dead Usage

Profoundly Deaf Usage 2

Profoundly Deaf Usage 3

I suspect that I happened across the phrase when I was studying at university.

Edit - As an aside I think describing a deaf person as profoundly deaf is entirely legitimate. A person's loss of hearing should be considered, after all, on a scale of cochlear degradation. And the meaning of profound adequately describes - in that it is equivalent to the word complete - a person's status relative to a scale of deafness.

Thanks

Jackinthebox115

His bullies didn’t torment him owing to his belief in Santa.

Thanks






[edit on 13/12/08 by The Quiet Earth]

Fairy tales are not lies. Santa Claus is not a fairy tale.
The point here is that you are not giving a clue to your children, because you yourselves have no clue how it works.
How are the children going to be innovative if they have to follow tradition of lying to the letter? If you don't present themselves with the idea of fallacy? They'll think everything is allowed for personal gain.

Fairy tales are an elaborate construction which teaches children how to resolve frustrating situations, how to deal with injustice, how to deal with delusions, how to tap their own resources. Fairy tales have an emotional and ideological impact and they EXPLAIN in an explicit way how those mechanisms work.

Fairy tales were not invented by idle parents who are looking for a way to pacify their children whenever they try to accomplish something by using emotional blackmail. And that's about the first thing children learn to do, and they keep doing it as long as it works. And parents who feel sorry for themselves and their children will definitely make a mistake and do nothing to stop it. And then, when someone draws a decisive line for such behavior, they go nuts and attack and accuse and FIRE teachers who tell truth to children.

The story of Santa Claus has absolutely no didactic purpose. If you want to tell this nonsense to your children, at least you should warn them that it is a story and not a reality. Have some faith, for God's sake, that your children have the ability to deal with it.

The lack of faith in children and their ability to be responsible and handle themselves without being patronized at all times, is the worst kind of upbringing.

Don't tell your children that there are little people in TV. That is their idea, after all, isn't it? If you let it be, later in life, they will always try to impose their idiotic interpretation of things and expect everybody to comply. That is a very bad thing to do, and it is a premeditated crime.

Originally posted by bingmat

Originally posted by Jkd Up

Originally posted by bingmat
The guy who did this by the way was (surprise surprise) an agecny-worker who probably reads the Guardian and propells his personal views into our national curriculum - like a clueless tosser!!

Wow! A bit harsh don't you think... That'd be like stereotyping you because you come here to ATS. So you would be a consipracy spewer. And your area of influance would be...? Where do you work? Are you around any children? Do you have kids? You could be planting your seeds of conspiracy in the next generatin.

I could go as far as you to say (like you did) that you would plan your lies in those around you, prooving your own opnipotance and continuing conspiracies that are false in the first place...

Good point...UNTIL, since you probably don't know, there's a running joke in the UK about agency workers who let schools down DAILY. My brother in law is a (directly employed) teacher, as is my ex of about five years, so I hear it nigh on daily. Teachers agency workers are a cut below. Significantly.

So in response to your laboured point...

No, like I said, I'm not surprised. At all.

I'm a qualified football (soccer) and thai boxing coach and have been for many years. I've taught all over the world, but I'm a Marketing Manager SINCE you must know, not that its any of your bloody business.

...and I can spell influEnce correctly, of course.

...and generatiOn, too.

So, you were saying... how you're so qualified as a teacher, you're a parent and you know SO much about the standards of this in my country AND this school which is local to me......weren't you...?!?!

Go on, enlighten me about something on my own doorstep, Captain Virginia......

[edit on 12/12/2008 by bingmat]

Wow! Quite the verbal lambasting. Thank you! And also, thank you for adding me to your Foes list!

Allow me to start by saying, please don't call me Captain.... I work for a living.

I also share with you a passion for football (soccer) but I am not a Thai Bo coach.

You see, going jokes or area jokes are like inside jokes... if you're not on the inside... You don't get it. Seeings how I am not in England, it doesn't supprise me that I didn't.

As far as manicuring my typing and errors, I wish I had the time. I'm usually only doing five things at once and can't take off for tea and review everything. Also, I am a biker, so vocabulary and manners aren't my stong point anyhow.

Thank you for being added to the list of Englishmen I've met who are dry as toast. Jeeze... No wonder we revolted...

"Life is great because I'm breathing
Hell is just a phase of dreaming
I'm an evil human being
Sorry if I hurt your feelings..."

I find so many of these responses to be utterly mind-boggling.

What screwed me up from my childhood? It certainly wasn't the "lies" of Santa Claus, what a joke. That did not "exhaust" me, trouble me, make me not trust people, hurt me, or make me hateful.

Getting beat by parents, abused having to run away from multiple homes, having multiple parents, the complete lack of love, those things were much worse. Having to be in a courtroom at 12, watching cops take your father away at gunpoint, I could go on and on. I am astounded that some find Santa Claus an abominable lie, in light of all the actual tragic events that occur in our lives.

Look at it like this. There are negative lies, and positive lies. Ever been to a magic show? It's all sleight of hand and lies. Are you going to sit in the crowd and yell how each is done, to ruin the experience of children watching? No? Why not? Because it's an illusion created to give JOY and amazement. Not to hurt.

The idea of someone who is that giving is not a hateful lie to tell children. It's an illusion. But a positive one. And it's hardly just Santa, and it's hardly limited to the United States, and it's been going on for thousands of years.

Santa is simply a personification of the spirit of Christmas, and promotes joy, giving, and other positive influences.

The world doesn't need to be so stark, negative, sharp and "real," to the point that nothing imaginary, magical or fantastic can exist.

Do any of you watch TV? The movies? You DO realize that's all FICTION right? A lie? Do you also abhore all TV? I'd rather watch an episode of some great sci fi or fantasy show, than another boring, hateful reality TV show. We deal with reality every day, every year.

If you want to limit your children's experiences to only known, real, tangible things, so be it. But I suggest you don't read Skippy John Jones books to them any longer (cats can't really talk), nor let them watch any cartoon, or any show, that doesn't utterly depict the 100% truth. If you are going to be so hardnosed about Santa, you are a hypocrite unless you follow suit with anything that doesn't speak the 100% truth. Never take your kids to a magic show. Don't read anything but non-fiction stories to them. Almost all movies are out. No more visits from the tooth fairy.

For most though, they will continue to let children live their lives with magic and fantasy, since they will have to face the stark reality of real life soon enough. A visit from the tooth fairy to make the loss of their teeth easier to handle. A visit from a magical elf guy who promotes joy and giving. And books, movies, magic shows, and everything else, that gives their children joy.

I don't know I've seen a bigger case of scroogery in all my years..

I bust out laughing when I saw this on the news tonight here in Sicily.
My friend asked me why I was laughing.
I said - "I saw it first on ATS"!
He didn't get it.



Thanks for the post

God forbid a teacher should tell his/her students the truth.

reply to post by FiatLux


I had just woke up, and was in the mood to rant. I was being facetious. Just ignore it. I don't really believe in a Santa Claus conspiracy...

As far as I'm concerned, to each their own.

reply to post by Monger


How do I go about joining the morals police? Do I have to take a test to see if I pass your strict rules we should all be following? Are we really going to be setting up cameras in homes to keep a stern eye on these low lifes?

All kidding aside, where does all of this stop? You want to brow beat parents who want their children to have fun with Christmas, but you put the blinders on to what this government is doing to us and this country?

Well, the day I get a letter post marked from God telling me that all free will is being taken away from us, only then will you have the right to tell us that. Until that day, feel free to take on the government, and see how far brow beating them will get you, ok?

Originally posted by systemic.aberration
reply to post by FiatLux

 

I had just woke up, and was in the mood to rant. I was being facetious. Just ignore it. I don't really believe in a Santa Claus conspiracy...

As far as I'm concerned, to each their own.

Lol, yea, you were in the mood to rant, and I wasn`t in the mood to put up with it. By the way........(Using my best Darth Vader voice.) welcome to the dark side young systemic.aberration.

reply to post by FiatLux


Just that holiday stress kicking in. I am really not looking forward to christmas with the inlaws. I'm 30 years old, and they expect me to spend the night on christmas eve and act surprised when I wake up to stuffed stockings and milk and cookies and whatever wierd crap they do.

It kinda freaks me out...

Seriously.

I'm scared.