India Under Terror Attack! At least ten people killed in Mumbai shootings: TV (now 125 +)

Originally posted by Jinni

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
Everyone please take note of Gooberiffic's post!

I thought it was a fair, balanced and thoughtful response.

He criticised the Indian authorities where criticism was due and analysed the situation's causes and context masterfully.

Goober has set the standard. Lets all follow it.

Regardless of our affiliations and beliefs, I think most of us are capable of reasoned judgement and debate. There has been nationalistic rhetoric from both sides. We would do well to check the rhetoric and analyse the situation with a cool head.

That said, some posters have been ridiculous in their stances and beliefs. There is room for debate, but none for propaganda and lies.

Henceforth I will only debate with those posters who offer considered insights or constructive criticism (eg saying that the police need to be better armed, instead of calling the entire Indian police force "cowards").

I urge you all to do the same

I agree, let's address these posters that blindly say India is an angel and do not promote any healthy debate to the contrary.

It's really humorous to see Indian or Pakistani nationalist people blindly spout off nationalist propaganda and lies.

You can usually identify them by their avator (as in a Indian\Pakistani flag) or their blatant hypocrisy and failure to respond to facts.

Can you please tell us all what was Hermant Karkare investigating in India and what he found? (yes, I'm talking about Hindu terrorist actions carried out to purposely blame Muslims).

Go on, go on. Tell us that news!

Google is your friend.

P.S. This site is called ATS. Don't post here if you don't expect an open minded discussion on all matters. Propaganda can be spread on other forums which I'm sure you are most aware of.

Go on. Telll us all what Hermant Karkare found!!!!!!

Silence in EVERY thread about this topic by every one of you people.

Pathetic.

[edit on 1-12-2008 by Jinni]

Hey man... dont call us pathetic... you guys are terrible...
and dont start your rumors on this forum either... whatever you are trying to prove... Pakistan is in terrible state, people are fighting for basic needs...
No one is quit here... its only that there is no use to prove it to you... like Pakistani govt.... which is shameless... comes out saying that there is no link...

There is no base to you senseless theory... the great cop died while stoping the Terrorists from Pakistan... India needs to wake up now... and react...

reply to post by Jinni


Jinni, please post a link that shows that Hindu terrorists tried to blame Muslims. The only terrorist attack that I know Hindu terrorists are being investigated for was in a Muslim locality. Hardly a way to blame Muslims, I would think.

The real question is how did these armed to brim terrorists managed to ride their trawler from karachi to mumbai which has a distance of 500 nautical miles and the fastest trawler would take atleast 50 hours to get to their distination.And india has 21 state-of-art radar systems lined up all the way till Sir-Creek which can even detect movements till the Gawadar Port Pakistan,so how did these terrorists manage to stay undetected all the way to mumbai?

Thousands of Pakistani fisherman have got caught by indian navy because their fishing boat managed to drift towards the Sir creek line as they don't have navigation systems or charts to see where they are positioned.And let me show you how far is this Sir-Creek line from Mumbai.This is where Indian navy has a close eye on boat movements.

Image

An indian news article from last year regarding beefing up of off shore security

Mumbai, June 22 (IANS) The Oil and Natural Gas Corp (ONGC) has beefed up security around its highly vulnerable offshore assets on the western coast of India following threats from terror groups.

Unwilling to take any chance, the public sector giant with a market value of $48 billion is putting into place a state-of-the-art radar-based surveillance system to detect suspicious crafts near the offshore oil complexes such as Bombay High.

'Serious security concerns have been highlighted at the highest quarters. A lot of concern has been expressed by the National Security Advisor and the Cabinet Secretary on the issue several times,' ONGC executive director (security) B.C. Nayak told IANS over telephone from New Delhi.

'We are taking the matter seriously and all efforts are being made to beef up security at all our onshore and offshore platforms at Bombay High and other assets. Security threats to our offshore installations have always been real.'

Nayak said: 'We are installing a new radar-based Vessel and Air Traffic Management System (VATMS). Radars will be installed at all offshore platforms and be connected with a security hub onshore.

Source

And this is how far well secured Mumbai High Oil platform is from Mumbai.

www.mapsofindia.com...




[edit on 1-12-2008 by t0ken]

Originally posted by communicator

You need to be educated my friend.

It is worldwide known and accepted FACT what Hermant Karkare was unravelling.

I agree Pakistan is in a terrible state but yet again, the issue about the motive has been side stepped, avoided and ignored.

The only thing you actually mentioned in your post is some Pakistani bashing and some totally irrelevant rambling.

Once again!

[edit on 1-12-2008 by Jinni]

Originally posted by gooberiffic
reply to post by Jinni

 

Jinni, please post a link that shows that Hindu terrorists tried to blame Muslims. The only terrorist attack that I know Hindu terrorists are being investigated for was in a Muslim locality. Hardly a way to blame Muslims, I would think.

LOTS of information out there:

"India uncovers Hindu terror group that carried out bombings blamed on Islamists"
www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk...
www.daily.pk...

Here are INDIAN news site explaining the Hindu Terrorist organisation bombing and masquerading:

www.indianexpress.com...
www.dnaindia.com...
www.4to40.com...


Photographed terrorist wearing Hindu religious symbols:

"Left, a CCTV snapshot of one of the Mumbai terrorists, wearing the sacred Hindu armband and carrying a machine gun. Right, a picture of a typical member of Hindu terror groups, wearing the same armband. The band is sacred to fundamentalist Hindus who believe wearing it shows devotion and brings good luck from gods. [click here if you can’t see the pictures]"

source: www.daily.pk...
Pics:engforum.pravda.ru...
Ref: whatreallyhappened.com...

There's a LOT more out there...

[edit on 1-12-2008 by Jinni]

Very interesting info coming out....

(CNN) -- The United States warned the Indian government about a potential maritime attack against Mumbai at least a month before last week's massacre left 179 dead, a U.S. counterterrorism official told CNN.

U.S. intelligence indicated a group might enter the country by water and launch an attack on Mumbai, said the source, speaking on the condition of anonymity.
www.cnn.com...

reply to post by Jinni


Every link you have posted simply says that the authorities initially thought this was Muslim terror but then found evidence of Hindu involvement. This is completely natural since this will be the first Hindu terror attack if it is proven to be so. On the other hand there have been uncountable Muslim terror attacks all over the world. There is no evidence that the perpetrators tried to implicate Muslims.

You have to understand this concept. If you are carrying out a false flag operation to implicate Muslims you will attack Hindus not Muslims. It is ridiculous to attack Muslims if that is your aim. If you are carrying out a false flag operation in the US to implicate Muslims you would not attack Muslims either, you would attack non-Muslim Americans.

Then you trot out this ridiculous theory that one of the terrorists was a Hindu because he was wearing a red wristband. Would a guy involved in a false flag op advertise his true allegiance. This is like a guy in a CIA false flag op wearing a CIA t-shirt. Inconveniently for you this guy has been captured alive and numerous pictures of him disseminated. If he is indeed and Indian, let alone a Hindu, he will be quickly recognized by people in his neighborhood. Of course that is not going to happen. You are totally overplaying your hand and making absurd allegations.

[edit on 2-12-2008 by gooberiffic]

Originally posted by gooberiffic
reply to post by Jinni

 

Every link you have posted simply says that the authorities initially thought this was Muslim terror but then found evidence of Hindu involvement. This is completely natural since this will be the first Hindu terror attack if it is proven to be so. On the other hand there have been uncountable Muslim terror attacks all over the world. There is no evidence that the perpetrators tried to implicate Muslims.

You have to understand this concept. If you are carrying out a false flag operation to implicate Muslims you will attack Hindus not Muslims. It is ridiculous to attack Muslims if that is your aim. If you are carrying out a false flag operation in the US to implicate Muslims you would not attack Muslims either, you would attack non-Muslim Americans.

Then you trot out this ridiculous theory that one of the terrorists was a Hindu because he was wearing a red wristband. Would a guy involved in a false flag op advertise his true allegiance. This is like a guy in a CIA false flag op wearing a CIA t-shirt

. Inconveniently for you this guy has been captured alive and numerous pictures of him disseminated. If he is indeed and Indian, let alone a Hindu, he will be quickly recognized by people in his neighborhood. Of course that is not going to happen. You are totally overplaying your hand and making absurd allegations.

[edit on 2-12-2008 by gooberiffic]

On the flip side It's just as ridiculous to consider Muslims massacring other Muslims too. We are not talking about the rest of the world but Mumbai at the moment.

No scam is ever perfect - look at 9/11 and all the evidence we have today of an inside job. I don't see how it is unreasonable to consider some things they slipped up on or were unwilling to change.

The allegations are not absurd at all. They root from the ATS officer Hermant Karkare killed in the Mumbai attacks!

All you have presented is "BELIEVE ME" and it doesn't change the implications of HK revelations.

Sheesh, another disinfo agent.

Originally posted by t0ken
The real question is how did these armed to brim terrorists managed to ride their trawler from karachi to mumbai which has a distance of 500 nautical miles and the fastest trawler would take atleast 50 hours to get to their distination.And india has 21 state-of-art radar systems lined up all the way till Sir-Creek which can even detect movements till the Gawadar Port Pakistan,so how did these terrorists manage to stay undetected all the way to mumbai?

Navy training anyone?

Do you know what a radar is? Do you know what radar cross section is?

Thousands of Pakistani fisherman have got caught by indian navy because their fishing boat managed to drift towards the Sir creek line as they don't have navigation systems or charts to see where they are positioned.And let me show you how far is this Sir-Creek line from Mumbai.This is where Indian navy has a close eye on boat movements.

And do you have any idea how many get through? 1? 2? 10000? lopsided argument
Also in your map,, can you please show us where Karachi and Mumbai are in
context to that Sir Creek line?

Unwilling to take any chance, the public sector giant with a market value of $48 billion is putting into place a state-of-the-art radar-based surveillance system to detect suspicious crafts near the offshore oil complexes such as Bombay High.

Do you know where Bombay high is? Do you know what the radar ranges of those radars are?
I hope the Pak Military commanders share the same bloated perceptioins of the Indian coastal surveillance! Because its much worse than you think..


'Serious security concerns have been highlighted at the highest quarters. A lot of concern has been expressed by the National Security Advisor and the Cabinet Secretary on the issue several times,' ONGC executive director (security) B.C. Nayak told IANS over telephone from New Delhi.

Nayak said: 'We are installing a new radar-based Vessel and Air Traffic Management System (VATMS). Radars will be installed at all offshore platforms and be connected with a security hub onshore.
And this is how far well secured Mumbai High Oil platform is from Mumbai.

These are radars to protect platforms and are not layered coastal defense radars. The onshore platforms are too far for ANY radar, let alone limited platform radars to detect small vessel traffic.

The fact that the Indian government is accusing Pakistan is taken with a grain of salt as this is not the first time the Indian government has blamed Pakistan, only to find later that Pakistan had nothing to do with the violence it was being accused of. Interestingly, four times previously the Indian government falsely accused Lashkare Taiba directly as the organization sponsoring violent incidents in India, and Pakistan indirectly for harbouring the militant group, although Pakistan officially banned the outfit in 2002.

In each of the incidents, namely, the Chattisinghpura massacre, the attack on the Indian Parliament on 13 December 2001, the Malagaon blasts and the Samjhota Express incident, investigations were either refused or revealed that neither Lashkare Taiba nor Pakistan but groups from within India were responsible. In the Chattisinghpura incident, for example, on 20 March 2000, one day before President Bill Clinton was due to arrive in India, 35 Sikhs were killed in the village of Chattisinghpura. It was said that about 15 uniformed men belonging to Lashkare Taiba and trained in Pakistan were responsible. Five days later, five men were killed by paramilitary forces in a village called Pathribal, claiming that the “foreign militants” responsible for the Sikh massacre had been found and duly eliminated. When local village people protested, investigations began. When the final results of the investigation were made public, it was found that local police was responsible for the massacre of the Sikhs.

The Samjhota Express incident is more disconcerting, and one that Pakistanis remember bitterly. On 18 February 2007, two bombs went off near the Indian city of Panipat on the Samjhota Express twice-weekly train between Lahore and Delhi, initiated as its name suggests (Samjhota means Agreement in both Hindi and Urdu) to enhance cordial relations between the two countries. The terrorist attack, which killed 68 (mostly Pakistanis) and injured many others was blamed once again on Lashkare Taiba. Indian authorities claimed that the alleged perpetrator was named Rana Shaukat Ali and a photograph of the terrorist was provided. Four months later, investigations revealed that neither Rana nor Lashkare Taiba but a serving lieutenant colonel of the Indian army, Lt. Col. Purohit was responsible for the attack. Purohit, it was found, had links with Hindu militant groups and provided training to extremists.

For Pakistan, the most troubling aspect of the 26 November 2008 terror attacks in Mumbai is the fact that the three brave men who had been tasked with finalizing the findings of both the Samjhota Express incident and the Malegaon blasts linking Lt. Col. Purohit conclusively to the terrorist attacks were all killed. Mr. Hemant Karkare, in charge of the investigation, was one of the first people shot by the terrorists, followed by DIG Ashok Kale and encounter specialist Vijay Salazar.

So.. the three , not just one .. but all three, involved in finalizing the investigation were targeted and killed at this Mumbai incident ? It is beyond coincidence . The police are not investigating this in India at all ? It's just a glaringly obvious planned hit job on these 3 officers . This angle can no way be called a conspiracy anymore, the perpetrators who planned this hit job are involved in this terrorism event .

Edit : Link

www.counterpunch.org...


[edit on 3-12-2008 by Gun Totin Gerbil]

reply to post by Gun Totin Gerbil


All 3 men were top counter terrorist specialists

What was the Mumbai attack? A terrorist event.

Who would be sent out to lead the response against the attack? Counter Terrorist Specialists.

Hardly a conspiracy worthy PoV.

They were all killed by pathetic sub par equipment and inferior body armour. Thats the real conspiracy here... the politicians' blatent disregard for the lives of policemen while surrounding themselves and their family with unnecessary security.

Originally posted by Gun Totin Gerbil
So.. the three , not just one .. but all three, involved in finalizing the investigation were targeted and killed at this Mumbai incident ? It is beyond coincidence . The police are not investigating this in India at all ? It's just a glaringly obvious planned hit job on these 3 officers . This angle can no way be called a conspiracy anymore, the perpetrators who planned this hit job are involved in this terrorism event .

www.counterpunch.org...

And what's more, ATS chief Hemant Karkare was supposedly shot 3 times in the chest through a bullet-proof vest while sitting in an ATS vehicle.

Karkare was not only investigation Hindus involved in past terrosist attacks, he was investigating the Hindu groups Iraeli connections, and the involvement of members of the military and traitors in parliament.

Nobody has yet explained the huge cache of weapons found at Hariman House.

These attacks began 8.00pm Wednesday 26th, Indian time.
By the Friday, there were election advertisements on the front pages of the papers capitalising on these events.

The funniest thing is that this whole attack was supposedly the work of 10 Pakistanis, who were later found to be high on coc aine and '___'.

1. The initial attack was two-pronged. One group started from within Hariman House. The weapons cache suggests they had been staying there.

The other group landed in a boat, supposedly leaving credit cards in it, and spread out to 10 targets.

2. You cannot fight while stoned on '___'. Yet the attackers in the hotels were incredibly efficient.

I suspect the attack was the work of a few Israelis, a group of Israeli trained and funded Hindus, and 10 drugged patsies from Pakistan, brainwashed into believing they were doing this for Islam, so torture would only reveal the story the organisers wanted heard.

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
reply to post by Gun Totin Gerbil

 

What was the Mumbai attack? A terrorist event.

No doubt it was a a terrorist event.But have you or your indian officials have any solid proof to back their pathetic claims of Pakistani high ranking officials and ISI involved in this terrorist attack?

India has ruled out any millitary response,well i think any clever indian wouldn't wana jump the guns straight away,its kinda obvious if ISI was involved than so were high ranking indian officials from indian Navy to police to plan out such a coordinated attack.I rule out conincidences or any spirits of 9/11 hijackers lending a helping hand out the equation .

reply to post by t0ken


I dont know, not as yet I suppose.

They claim to have some evidence; the FBI has also been involved with tracing IP addresses back to Pakistan etc.

No evidence has emerged as yet of any Pakistani state institution being involved in the attack.

However an LeT connection has been made, thus the ISI can't be far behind. I may be wrong of course, but I think we can both agree that this is how the ISI roll.

Originally posted by Daedalus3

Originally posted by t0ken

Do you know what a radar is? Do you know what radar cross section is?

The coast from end of the disputed maritime Pakistan-Indian boundary is has Fixed Indian Naval radars, aerial and ship based radars and an active blue water force. Not to mention couple of ports in between Karachi and Mumbai with each port having its rules for ships entering and leaving the ports.

Well i am sure the on n off-shore radars lined from mumbai to Sir Creek Line aren't their to detect fish movements.You tryna say that the terrorist trawler converted into rubber matted submarine once it entered Indian waters to stay undetected?And where were all those Naval boats that were patrolling around?India also has got quite a few numbers of helicopters and specific radar planes just to keep a close watch on Indian waters 24/7.

Also in your map,, can you please show us where Karachi and Mumbai are in context to that Sir Creek line?

Well you can see clearly in the map where the Sir Creek line is drawn.I would say its about 300 nautical miles from that line to Mumbai.

Do you know where Bombay high is? Do you know what the radar ranges of those radars are?

Yeh not very far,160 Km West from Mumbai coast and those 'state of art' radars can cover that area easily.

'Systemetic failure' might sound good enough to indians,but when it comes to providing evidence it will be ripped apart.






[edit on 3-12-2008 by t0ken]

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
reply to post by t0ken

 

However an LeT connection has been made, thus the ISI can't be far behind. I may be wrong of course, but I think we can both agree that this is how the ISI roll.

Yes i know how ISI rolls.But it rolls to achieve millitary objectives i.e Kargil Not killing a bunch of civillians indiscriminately.If there are millitant organisations that were involved in Pakistan, than they are to blame not Pakistani authorities.8 Paskistani soldiers died yesterday in Swat region fighting these terrorists.What more does india want when Pakistan is doing everyhing possible?

reply to post by t0ken


A reasonable start would be to hand over the 20 most wanted criminals and terrorists. Its a direct list and demand which is being made by India.

All the men on the list are involved in crimes against humanity, either via trafficking drugs or supporting terrorists (Dawood Ibrahim manages to do both).

Additionally, if intel is provided as to the location of the LeT training camps, they must be bombed by the Pakistani airforce/ taken out by the army.

If that happens, there is no reason our two nations cannot live in peace (after Kashmir is settled once and for all).

Its time for the new civilian government in Pakistan to stand and deliver on their promises. Musharrafs words were empty and hollow. My assessment of Raza Gilani, Kayani and Ali Zardari are that they are all drastic improvements on their predecessors. Gilani in particular is a foreward thinking man, as he has offered a no first use policy on nukes and had originally offered to send ISI chief Pasha to New Delhi.

The fact that Pasha was not sent in the end suggests that there is someone still behind the strings in Pakistan who has more power than your elected leader. For Pakistan's own good this has to stop. Naturally that is concurrent with steps towards stability for India also.

it sounds like too many people are discounting al qaeda being behind the attacks. gotta keep that buzzword alive in the media!

Rice said it was too early to say who was responsible for the attack, but: "Whether there is a direct Al Qaeda hand or not, this is clearly the kind of terror in which Al Qaeda participates," she said during a press conference.

www.foxnews.com...

Originally posted by Daedalus3

Do a google for one Mr. 'Dawood Ibrahim'... and see where the trail leads back to.. See where he is apparently hiding in 'protected custody' right now, and check out his links and influence on the Mumbai underworld..

Dawood Ibrahim...


Douglas Farah: A Bit More on Dawood Ibrahim and Why He Matters

Dec 11 2008


Ibrahim is known to have at least 8 passports, all issued by India and all from Mumbai, where the recent attacks occurred. He uses well over a dozen aliases, which he uses, along with the names of henchmen and family members, to owe properties around the world, including in United Arab Emirate, Australia, Canada and Pakistan.

[---]

Like Viktor Bout, Monzar al Kassar, A.Q Khan and others, these individuals are part of multiple networks, so targeting them brings the added value of making life more difficult for several organizations at the same time.

What makes Ibrahim so interesting is that he is Indian by birth, but now works with Pakistani radicals (and possibly, from time to time, with the ISI), making him, in the eyes of the Indian government, a traitor.

A traitor... and part of multiple networks...

Hafiz Mohammed Saeed, leader of the militant group Lashkar-e-Taiba, which India says planned and carried out the attacks, was placed under house arrest on 11th December.

Pakistan moves on Mumbai accused

The source article includes an interesting radio interview with Saeed.