Germany to Cause WW3

reply to post by blowfishdl


Your a sick Troll, I'm going to use the ignore button for the first time... what your saying is so counter to where I'm coming from it's ridciulous

That's the fifth time you've ignored every word I have said and gone into some Jewish German thing with me...

All your doing is baiting, enjoy the 6 friends you mad here in the last 2 years

reply to post by GrumpyBadger


Read what I had to say, Israel doesn't have the air capacity to penetrate Iran and take out the facilities in question for this attack...

I have stated over and over again that the USA is Very responsible as well for this situation

But honestly, it barely justifies a response at this moment

1: The purpose of an Israeli attack on Iran would be to eliminate the Nuclear weapons production facilities

World Wide the EXPERTS Agree, Israel does not have the ability to this by air alone

2: Guns, Ammo and weapons would be called into use only for a Ground fight... This is NOT a ground fight

3: The US has Opposed Unilateral Israeli Action Against Iran

4: We are not selling them the components they need to have the ability at this point and time

5: Iran has the ability to devastate Israel if there is warning of the attack, Air Force losses would be too High and Israel would loose an Unacceptable amount of it's defense even trying to win that way alone.

6: The Subs are the ONLY way Israel can strike and have the damage to END Irans Nuclear Ambitions

Without them the Attack Will not be Possible, not without risking the destruction of Israel as well


7: The use of those subs is likely to incite a Global War



The only way you can understand is if you take the time to read and know the Israeli objectives and what they are going to attempt to do and what they needed to do it

this is a current crisis and it has it's parameters... The German Govt choose to support Israel again and for the final time, all i'm saying is, it was an unwise choice, they are Itchy to use it and intend to do so.

Iran and Israel are like no 2 nations on Earth, this isn't a rational scenario

Originally posted by mopusvindictus
reply to post by blowfishdl

 

Your a sick Troll, I'm going to use the ignore button for the first time... what your saying is so counter to where I'm coming from it's ridciulous

That's the fifth time you've ignored every word I have said and gone into some Jewish German thing with me...

All your doing is baiting, enjoy the 6 friends you mad here in the last 2 years

It just sounds like your opinion on Germany is based on something much less than the facts considering the current state of the German army.

You said they will start WW3 because they traded a few submarines to Israel. Really man whoopidy doo there's people in America that sell Ak-47's in bulk to civilians, did they start domestic terrorism?

Who do you blame for the American Revolutionary War? The Kingdom of Great Britain?

In response to the brand new personal attack in which you are trying to offend me in saying I have only made 6 friends here in the last 2 years:

Unlike many people whom use the internet for personals, erotica, adult dating, making friends, and spreading hatred and lies; I have always intended to use the internet as a library for personal information.

When surfing 'round ATS it's merely ones duty to point out exactly what they know to be the truth, seek nothing but the truth, and deny ignorance. You my friend are merely being ignorant to the current state of the German Army and I have come here to deny any and all of your incorrect statements surrounding the German military. Furthermore you have proven incompetent to the point that you cannot, and will not admit your who-dun-it scenario could be wrapped around any country on the planet barring none.

So in a nut-shell if you ignore me, then you ignore truth. You ignore the fact that the human is capable of being incorrect, and you ignore the statements made on this thread by the German civilians themselves (as you already have). You ignore the atrocities of all nations. You ignore the current warfare in the middle east which does not even involve Germany other than UN relations. You ignore the blatent truth that Germany is an army of no more than 100,000 and completely based a "we're all gonna die!" scenario around a mere exchange of weaponry. If "we're all gonna die!" when a country trades weapons to another country in hostile territory WW3 would have broken out right after WW2. We would probably be on WW5 by now if we followed your take on current foreign affairs. It's this type of American ignorance that leads to 9/11, terrorism, and the 'round the world hatred for America.

You my friend have joined the crowd that turns on the music, plugs their ears, and denies truth rather than ignorance. You, my friend, are the problem (false facts that explode into huge internet rumors).

As one last note I would sincerely hope you learn to type more than one line before double spacing, it is a waste of internet space and a waste of eyeball movement. It's a computer and you get to delete your markup rather than write it in corrections as you would in a middle school English report.

It is up for debate as to wether the Dolphin class sub's have the ability to launch any nuclear armed-weapons.

There are also questions over wether it even has the range to get to Iran. certainly it could not do so if submerged, although it's surfaced range is over 8000Km, it's submerged range is only 400Km.

It also only carries enough fuel and provisions for 30 day's at sea, so unless the Israelis have Fleet tankers in position in the Indian Ocean, which I do not believe they have, then the Dolphin is not likely to be the source of any Israeli nuclear attack on Iran.

Just to add, Israel has no Fleet tenders, only "coastal" ones, which fits in eaxctly to the role of the IDF Sea Corps, which is to protect israel's coast and immediate shipping lanes, not far-flung adventures.

im german and that germany will start ww3 is the biggest BS ive ever read

reply to post by stumason


THANK YOU, for a genuine reply of substance to a genuine topic.

While still up for debate perhaps

Such speculation was further fueled by an unconfirmed test of a nuclear-capable, submarine-launched cruise missile (SLCM) in the Indian Ocean in 2000. Some reports claimed targets 1,500 kilometers away were hit. Such a range, however, implies an entirely new type of missile. However, the Israeli Defense Forces denies any such missile tests.

In June 2002, former State Department and Pentagon officials confirmed that the U.S. Navy observed Israeli missile tests in the Indian Ocean in 2000, and that the Dolphin-class vessels have been fitted with nuclear-capable cruise missiles of a new design. Israel issued new denials, albeit in an indirect manner. In October 2003, unidentified senior U.S. and Israeli officials were quoted as saying that Israel had successfully modified nuclear warheads to fit its Harpoon missiles.

According to Israeli sources, the three Dolphin-class submarines will give Israel a crucial third pillar of nuclear defenseand to complement the country's already much-vaunted land and air ramparts. While the Israelis' intention of using the German submarines as roving nuclear launch platforms had long been suspected, few experts had expected them to develop the capability to fire submarine-based cruise missiles so soon.

So there is the case, as much as 1,500 KM extra on the new cruise missiles from launch

It still represents in this case a Triad defense system or MAD

The Capacity for Israel to wreck the Middle East given any attack on it

18 Nuclear Missiles would Essentially deal the end to every Islamic nation in the region if Israel was attacked and the Missiles with that kind of range could reach as far as Tehran from off the coast of Israel

I would also add that with that kind of range Israel would be very effective to launch from as far out as 200-400 Km and have been submerged of a few Hundred KM prior and still have that kind of effectiveness in a first strike scenario

It doesn't really need to be underwater very long

But you misread I think, If I understand you the legnth of time it can stay underwater.

The diesel-electric submarines that Israel just bought from Germany make use of a new technology called "air-independent propulsion," which allows them to stay submerged for weeks instead of days.

As far as limitations being submerged or how they refuel

Although Israel has a naval base on the Red Sea, Egypt will not allow Israeli subs to use the Suez canal. So the Dolphins have to go around Africa. Currently, that is apparently being accomplished via a refueling stop in Eritrea. But if that access is denied in the future, the larger fuel capacity will enable the Dolphins to make it all the way on their own. Larger fuel capacity also allows the subs to spend more time on station off the Iranian coast. Currently the Dolphins can stay at sea for about 40 days (moving at about 14 kilometers an hour, on the surface, for up to 8,000 kilometers). Larger fuel capacity could extend range to over 10,000 kilometers, and endurance to about 50 days.

So the subs actually leave from Eritrea and refuel there, as well as Israel having a base somewhere in the Red Sea and the subs are being fitted for extra range and can stay under for weeks...

Now the 400 KM range at ... 8 knots

I'd dare say, your not going and running silent at 8 knots sneaking into the gulf of Oman for a super close strike

Half that to 4 knots and guesstimate... 800 KM, you can now dive in the Arabian sea far away from any detection with way to much water to cover and get right up into the Gulf Of Oman, That's launching from right up Irans rear end... That's not a missile strike, that's a Nuclear Enema

No chance of response and it can stay under long enough to do it




Also, I would add for those who think that WE have been supplying the israelis systems that give them the One UP... It wouldn't be so

Whatever the missile currently arming Israel's Dolphin-class submarines, it seems clear that Israel is interested in the acquisition of new cruise missiles. Its request for U.S. Tomahawk cruise missiles was rejected by the Clinton administration in 2000, since such a sale would have violated the Missile Technology Control Regime, which prohibits the transfer of missiles with a range exceeding 300 kilometers. However, it is likely only a matter of time before Israel is capable of mounting nuclear weapons on its submarine-launched missiles, if it has not done so already.

We refused the the Missiles, We refused them the subs, we wont give them the Raptor and we limited the number of Moabs to an amount that would make a solo attack on Iran extremely difficult

So since the Clinton administration and under Bush... for 12 Years, we have worked to keep Israel from acquiring the ability to strike unilaterally Iran.



The one thing I would add... Germany has delayed shipment until 2010

It's a year away and time enough perhaps to reverse a disastrous decision...

It won't be reversed, because... Russia keeps helping the Iranians with their ambitions...

But if you ask me...

This combination is simply end game... Russia helping Iran Go Nuclear and Germany Giving Israel a Triad Defense system

and that's what it surely works out to be

Is this a real post or am I dreaming of idiots??

Talk about ignorance.


It's the Jews (zionist Israeli supremacists), stupid!

And Please let me reiterate this point

In June 2002, former State Department and Pentagon officials confirmed that the U.S. Navy observed Israeli missile tests in the Indian Ocean in 2000, and that the Dolphin-class vessels have been fitted with nuclear-capable cruise missiles of a new design. Israel issued new denials, albeit in an indirect manner. In October 2003, unidentified senior U.S. and Israeli officials were quoted as saying that Israel had successfully modified nuclear warheads to fit its Harpoon missiles.

Israel in 2010 On delivery is now officially at least in a Middle eastern scenario capable of playing

MAD

Mutually Assured Destruction

We gave Israel Nukes, We didn't give them the ability to guarantee the destruction of the Middle east in any scenario.

Germany has done that

and

Germany has also given them the Radar Capacity to know ahead of time if any incoming Missiles are Nuclear.

That means in any Missile based Attack, Israel will have the precious time it needs to launch it's land based systems

another component of MAD

I'm sorry, Iran and Israel are not USA and Russia...

MAD will not be a concern to one of these 2 sides

I know about AIP and I don't doubt they can stay submerged for weeks, but speed when your running on AIP is extremely slow. I would be surprised if Israel would send a sub on a massive trip around the Cape to Eritrea when the sub is not really meant for long distance ocean voyages. It would be pushing the limitations of the sub to go that far.

As for nuclear tipped Harpoons, not heard of that before. The warhead size of a Harpoon warhead is a little over 200kg. Even if you had a nuke that small, it wouldn't be a very big one. A few KT at most. A Harpoon is a relatively short ranged anti-ship missile.

If the Israeli's had an SLCM, then that would be a viable platform to launch nukes, but again, it would be a tactical warhead of very limted size and would be extremely vunerable to the capable Iranian air defence systems, such as the Tor M-1 which they reputedly have acquired from Russia, which are designed to shoot down cruise missiles

Just on logistics alone, let alone a viable sub-launched missile capable of carrying nukes or even a submarine capable of launching them, I highly doubt any nuclear strike would come from a Dolphin.

The IDF is more likely to carry out an air or ground launched nuclear strike, if they were going to do anything of that nature. They have the means to do that without question.

EDIT: It would also be very nice if you could supply links to your sources.

[edit on 24/11/08 by stumason]

Originally posted by stumason

EDIT: It would also be very nice if you could supply links to your sources.

[edit on 24/11/08 by stumason]

We are begging for you to cite your sources. (11 pages later)

reply to post by stumason


Sure for a nice, well paced rational conversation, I can take the few minutes to supply the links from here on...

You pose opposition to Israeli use of the subs for a first strike, can't say that your arguments aren't good

But they reflect when you mention Russian Anti Missile systems in Iran, exactly the point I am trying to make.

The brinksmanship, World powers playing Chess and arming unstable Nations with increasing fire power

Germany to Cause WW3 (Title of Thread)

My point is, not to be correct in absolute about the scenario of how, nor should it digress to that.

Do I know that Israel Has Nukes on subs or intends to, I'm not in a sub so I can not say. US officials claim they do/can that's what I know

Am I a Military expert, No, better than many, not the best...

I do know, I would not put it past Israel, to take anything given, modify it and make it work to their ends.

Where you make assumptions to other ends, I think, worst case scenario, because, that is after all what a FICTIONAL Thread in essence is having us entertain.

The Subs could be used, in a variety of ways, it is believed by the US (or some within our system) this is the Israeli intent

And given history and ability and will, I don't think it is far fetched to imagine the Israelis being very creative with their toys


It's an Interesting question, and perhaps the title should be rephrased COULD Germany cause WW3

Germany is a Green nation, Germany is Economic and diplomatic... all through this thread the Human face of Germany is shown.

But yet, Germany practically leads the EU, Germany is pivotal in Nato, Germany still builds great weapons systems, Germany Is an economic power house

Germany is very powerful

and accidents happen, things go wrong, Germany's decisions affect the whole world.

Intent... does Intent need to be there?

IF the Nukes go Rouge on board a sub, what could happen?

German decision are... Global in reach, they could cause WW3, on purpose by accident, doesn't matter.

My main point is... Russia is helping Iran, Germany among others is Helping Israel, the situation is a powder keg.



The real question here, regardless if I were to win or lose a contest of Military example of how...

Is Israel, with subs, when it is Believed... in fairness I'll say the word believed... a Good Idea? Any more than a Nuclear Iran is?

Likely hood and me overestimating the scenario, I'll... loose that argument, Israel has other means, I'll take your word on it

Do we still want Israel with yet another method to strike ( I disagree with you btw if they Israelis have good subs I believe whole heartedly they will be equipped with nukes) But it's not cause for a debate...

The question I pose is, why is Germany giving Israel anything that could be used as a WMD delivery system, Why is anyone allowing this situation?



Could WW3 start because of this,

Yeah in a myriad of ways, Religious zealot nations need to be Dis Armed, not Armed

Germany is playing the game of taking sides here,

Your point was... in part, I am misinterpreting the threat due to Russian defenses given to Iran... Perhaps I am.

But that is the whole of this story, of the risk here

Germany is involved in, the game of this, not in a small way either. YES so are several other nations, ALL will be to blame if these two nations start throwing Bombs... Russia, USA... Germany

and there are a few others on that list surely, i do not know all weapons sale details, but we know who builds the best, England, France add them to the list... Other Nations have Economic abilities to fuel this fire China, India

It's still a few Nations when looked at Globally

That are, building up a genuine Armageddon Scenario in the mid east, doing so for a long time now.

COULD The Subs be used in a manner that starts WW3?

yeah

Probable... ehhh, you may be right I may be over zealous on that or maybe not

it comes down to

I no longer have faith in Israels ability to restrain it's action in the manner that the rest of the nuclear club has given a Nuclear Iran in the picture

To Me... any nation, ANY NATION giving either Iran or Israel more ability to do devastating attacks, possible, probable or not likely... well that's war isn't it? To outwit your opponent...What is "likely" in War actually mean?

It's a bad idea, it's hypocritical to the stance the entire West takes on the subject

and...

I believe the Israel Iran conflict will ignite

Fair to say Germany Caused IT... Not to say it did Alone, Just that it would turn up and be, a player in the game, a major one, the Radar system is designed to find Nukes, that is Specific, it will allow Israel to launch perhaps... (which is fair) but the situation is still Insane

and neither the powers that be in Iran or Israel are Stable as the rest of the world views goals and reality IMHO

I would, vehemently oppose any transfer of technology or arms or capacity to produce them to either of these nations at this point in time...

Originally posted by xXxArMaGeDdOnxXx
Youg George,
thats what ppl said before ww2 they said germany wasnt a large military power but they sneakly did all this stuff

What i think will happen is that after the economic crisis hits full scale germany will regain power in its land,resources,miltiary ,etc.
Plus alot of the german people I talk to in germany last summer belived they have the right to own back land they took over.

You were talking to whom?

Die Hard right wing Germans?
The majority of Germans here are against any form of war, they have had enough of it.
Btw.

Read up on WHO gave Adolph the millions he needed to start WW2!
Germany was on its knees in the 20s and early 30s.

Originally posted by xXxArMaGeDdOnxXx
Youg George,
thats what ppl said before ww2 they said germany wasnt a large military power but they sneakly did all this stuff

What i think will happen is that after the economic crisis hits full scale germany will regain power in its land,resources,miltiary ,etc.
Plus alot of the german people I talk to in germany last summer belived they have the right to own back land they took over.

Read the newspapers from the thirties (like I did when I was a kid in the 7ties) and you will discover that it was very obvious that Gemany was building a big army and the roads to transport it. Germany was a huge economic succes. Everybody was a bit envious and slightly scared. Just nobody wanted to conclude the obvious, that they were powersick and ideologically feeding their people with nonsense to keep them going. And that nothing good would come from this. American banks kept investing in them untill it was too late.

The other factor you are forgetting is that Germany is not on her own, it is part of the European Union. The EU is not starting any war. The fact that you amy have talked to some local lunatics, does not say much. Lunatics are all around.
The majority off Germans do not think the are entilted to "land" they conquered in WO2, that is insane.

Originally posted by blowfishdl

.. and your the worst conspiracy theorist I have yet to come encounter with PERIOD. Even Nibiru supporters show evidence of some sort.

www.jpost.com...

let's hope that satisfied you, because i honestly don't understand why i should read several pages of variations of the same post. the sub deal is common knowledge, their strategic value, otoh, may be blown out of proportion.

the first two were delievered free of charge, the 3rd cost half its nominal price, so it does not really look like a business deal, i doubt they had a real choice in the matter, tbh. what was the German gov't supposed to do? i'd really like to hear an answer to that question, because i'm afraid people wouldn't like the probable ramifications of a declined deal either.


large tubes on boats are by no means the only way to launch nuclear armed cruise missiles, their air force could do that in a pinch, it's merely another platform and a stealthy option, if the Israelis really wanted to, they could use anything from pack mules to one-way (kamikaze) air missions, for delivery of a number of nukes to their intended targets. heck, UPS might do if you're into gambling.

evaluating weapon systems takes more than attaching blame, because at the end of the day, if you're unprepared, talk may actually become very costly, especially if you listened to it. we don't know yet if these weapons will ever be used, why not give them the benefit of doubt for now?

[edit on 2008.11.25 by Long Lance]

In europe live is good, but we arent a military superpower at the moment.
WW3 wont be started by any european country for sure.
I think an accidental missle launch will cause ww3.
Maybe in Iran, or Israel there could be a lunatic willing to cause ww3 for their own sake.

Iran accidentally? fires a missle on a Israeli city.
Israel fires back with a tactical nuke.
America/Israel launch airstrikes in Iran to force a regime change.
Syria, Pakistan, and Russia threathen with war.
Clashes with pakistani forces and american soldiers escalate, Russia sends in troops.
WW3 starts?

Perhaps a setup is brewing in this region.

Someone has begun to move the pawns.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

something to look forward too! I'm somewhat bored

Originally posted by mopusvindictus
reply to post by stumason

 

Sure for a nice, well paced rational conversation, I can take the few minutes to supply the links from here on...

So where are they son? You held out for 11+ pages where are the sources?

Let me just get a few out of the way since your incapable apparently...

Jewish Exponent: Germany - Key to Iran Threat?

Mar 20, 2008 ... With trade of more than $5 billion a year, Germany is Israel's second-largest trading partner after the United States. ...

Second-largest partner AFTER the United States. This reinforces my entire argument as you can see throughout the 11 nonsense pages of this thread.

The German Israel Tango

A crucial litmus test for moral courage involves what Merkel termed the fight against "mainstream anti-Semitism," and which is currently unfolding,...

I knew it. This conversation isn't about WW3 or Germany. It's about anti-semitism.

Originally posted by Long Lance

Originally posted by blowfishdl

.. and your the worst conspiracy theorist I have yet to come encounter with PERIOD. Even Nibiru supporters show evidence of some sort.

www.jpost.com...

let's hope that satisfied you, because i honestly don't understand why i should read several pages of variations of the same post. the sub deal is common knowledge, their strategic value, otoh, may be blown out of proportion.
[edit on 2008.11.25 by Long Lance]

This isn't even the same subject.