Behold, the black horse of Revelation!

reply to post by TheRedneck


The four horses simply put, represent the stages of the church. White being in perfect order and having pure truth. As each horse is ushered in, it represents the fabric of mens influence within the church, i.e. adding traditions, and personal interpretaion. the lay-out is this:

White Horse: The church in perfect order.
Pale horse: False Doctrine corrupting the Truth.
Red Horse: Man made religion, various forms of Christianity
Black Horse: No Truth, or very little left within the Church.
This is recyclic, until The White Horse (Jesus) re-establishes the Church with Truth.
Thank You. Muddy

reply to post by spy66


Prophecy is always pretty general, and really only becomes apparent during and after the actual events.

Personally, I believe prophecy is really just a result of logical and critical reasoning. For example, since I was a kid I always had an understanding of 1 thing. It occured to me that if technology kept increasing, and the power of them as well, that 1 day someone would hold the power to destroy the entire world at once. And by anyone, I mean each and every single person. The technology harnessed would be available to all, and at that point all of civilization rests on each and every individual.

This was as a kid, less than 10 years old I seen this. And as an adult, we see that pretty much happening today with all the WMD talk etc.

In this scenario, where people have all this power, which direction do you take? Do you form a power that will spy on people always and control people to keep them from happening? In my experience, it seems these things have proven to be the cause in many cases of such things. And you put the power over everyone in the hands of a few. Someone eventually gets past security, and bam.

The only way such a thing could be done is for people to advance spiritually(knowledge and understanding of yourself and reality) and learn to leave peacefully. Live and let live. If people can not do this, then they will not advance very far as a civilization, as the civilization will destroy itself. No doubt we've seen that on earth with all the wars. Our technology is no doubt far ahead our spirituality.

Is what I seen prophecy? I don't think so. It was just the result of looking in the direction things are heading. I couldn't give you exact names and players, but I could give you patterns that would occur in the process.

Are there really that many ways a world government can form? Logical and critical reasoning to me suggests that these kinds of things are the only pattern that can really be taken. You gotten consolidate all the nations under 1 rule, and it has to be presented in a way that people will buy, even if it's broken promises and manipulation. I put more stock into the pattern of things than the actual players in that variable. You won't be able to put the variables in place until it happens, but it is interesting trying to put those variables into place. So the seal remains until the events happen.

[edit on 20-11-2008 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia


I think you described a part of the seal right now

We have the knowledge to predict a head of time but we wont know for sure until it has happened.

Have do we solve that problem ?

If we cant solve that problem have can we really expect to solve a prophesy from the bible!

We have the knowledge to shape,imagine and predict the future. But not the spiritual knowledge to see it.

Is that the seal.

If so what dose the Bible tell us about that!

What dose the Bible tell us about spiritual knowledge.

To get any where i think we have to start at that end if we are to ever get any prophesy right.


If you seek knowledge with God you will get the truth. If you seek knowledge else where you will be lead to a dead end.
I think that is very important if your a believer in God.




[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

Originally posted by spy66
We have the knowledge to predict a head of time but we wont know for sure until it has happened.

Have do we solve that problem ?

If we cant solve that problem have can we really expect to solve a prophesy from the bible!

I try to understand the pattern. If you can understand the pattern, and what events are needed, then you can be against the event, rather than the player.

Because the actions that cause those events are basically bad/evil anyway. It's usually good to be against them. Even if a single country did the mark of the beast stuff, and it's not worldwide - still not something I'm in favor of. Also not in favor of things that have appeared to be like it, barcodes on people or microchips etc. Even if not the specific prophecy in terms of scale, still things you want to avoid. Especially since things usually start as such.

A man isn't bad/evil because he is a man by a certain name. He is bad/evil because of the actions he does. As the saying goes - don't hate the sinner, hate the sin. Be against the event/sin/evil.

But it's not just about the single person, can't control what the world does. So even if you specifically get it, doesn't mean you can stop it. Just means you can take yourself out of the loop/problem.



[edit on 20-11-2008 by badmedia]

Originally posted by badmedia

Originally posted by spy66
We have the knowledge to predict a head of time but we wont know for sure until it has happened.

Have do we solve that problem ?

If we cant solve that problem have can we really expect to solve a prophesy from the bible!

I try to understand the pattern. If you can understand the pattern, and what events are needed, then you can be against the event, rather than the player.

Because the actions that cause those events are basically bad/evil anyway. It's usually good to be against them. Even if a single country did the mark of the beast stuff, and it's not worldwide - still not something I'm in favor of. Also not in favor of things that have appeared to be like it, barcodes on people or microchips etc. Even if not the specific prophecy in terms of scale, still things you want to avoid. Especially since things usually start as such.

A man isn't bad/evil because he is a man by a certain name. He is bad/evil because of the actions he does. As the saying goes - don't hate the sinner, hate the sin. Be against the event/sin/evil.

But it's not just about the single person, can't control what the world does. So even if you specifically get it, doesn't mean you can stop it. Just means you can take yourself out of the loop/problem.



[edit on 20-11-2008 by badmedia]

WoW that is a good explanation.

If you see the patterns of the things to come, you might have solved and understood part of the meaning with the prophecies in the Bible .
Because we dont have the power to change Gods plan any way. The event will happen.

The beast (The human made system) has the power of "many" Men. And one alone cant change the opinion of a crowd. The event will happen. Even if we figure it out or not.

To me the prophecies is all about making choices nothing else.
God is telling us to look for signs maybe patterns so that we can be prepared when it happens.
So that when it happens we will be prepared to make a choise.

The signs that the prophecies talk about might be the patterns God wants us to pay attention to.






[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
The four horses simply put, represent the stages of the church. White being in perfect order and having pure truth. As each horse is ushered in, it represents the fabric of mens influence within the church, i.e. adding traditions, and personal interpretaion. the lay-out is this:

White Horse: The church in perfect order.
Pale horse: False Doctrine corrupting the Truth.
Red Horse: Man made religion, various forms of Christianity
Black Horse: No Truth, or very little left within the Church.
This is recyclic, until The White Horse (Jesus) re-establishes the Church with Truth.
Thank You. Muddy

This actually makes some sense. Actually doesn't disagree with what I've seen at all.

Could false doctrine = the letters of paul/Romans? I have thought it odd that Jesus was against the establishment of the time, and told people they were the authority, not the scribes. And then along comes paul, who writes how people must believe in the idol of Jesus(false idol IMO), and then goes on to establish the church and it's authority. This would be false doctrine corrupting the truth. It is exactly what someone quotes when they talk about worshiping the image of Jesus, and also where people must submit to authority, and what the Germans preached in WW2.

Next the church then takes this new found authority and we enter in the dark ages. Where people are forced to worship a certain doctrine. They are not even allowed to view/own a bible, and must take everything from the scribes. The false doctrine spreads and conquers the lands.

Then comes the modern day church, where the christian religion is a religion of hate towards other men. Truth is all but ignored these days. On my TV, I have 5 channels or more of christian hate. If you worship the idol of Jesus, it's mainstream/right - you are not persecuted. If you stick to the teachings of christ, then back in the Iraq war, you were every bad name in the book. No truth at all, pure hate.

I don't know if that is right, but I do see the pattern there. Interesting.

[edit on 20-11-2008 by badmedia]

To further what I was saying. This is what Jesus says:

www.biblegateway.com...

Matthew 7:
28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Not as the scribes. What exactly is a scribe? Paul is a scribe.

en.wikipedia.org...

A scribe (or scrivener) is a person who writes books or documents by hand as a profession. The profession, previously found in all literate cultures in some form, lost most of its importance and status with the advent of printing. The work could involve copying books, including sacred texts, or secretarial and administrative duties such as taking of dictation and the keeping of business, judicial and historical records for kings, nobility, temples and cities. Later the profession developed into public servants, journalists, accountants and lawyers.

Originally posted by IceColdPro
The word Stephanos is a Greek word not a Hebrew word. If you are making links like this in your theory then your entire thread has lost credibility in my opinion.

Can you please point out where in his thread The Redneck claimed Stephanos was a Hebrew word? I saw him make no such claim. Also, even if he did (which I do not even see), that is not a major issue in the least bit. Your claim that such a minor error negates his entire theory is about as stupid as if you had said his thread lost all credibility due to the fact he made a typo somewhere in his OP. Get real. That has got to be one of the worst strawmen I've ever seen used on ATS.

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
The four horses simply put, represent the stages of the church. White being in perfect order and having pure truth. As each horse is ushered in, it represents the fabric of mens influence within the church, i.e. adding traditions, and personal interpretaion. the lay-out is this:

I have to strongly disagree. I believe the letters to the seven churches hold a dual purpose:

1). They are messages to the churches that physically existed at that time.
2). They are prophetic timeliness for the churches throughout the church age.

The four horsemen, I believe, definitely represent what is to come while the letters to the seven churches is the one that details church history.

gracethrufaith.com...

If someone writes something that can be interpreted in 'too many' ways, like all believe systems we have in the world today. One should question the motives of the writers of such pieces.

Originally posted by AshleyD

Originally posted by IceColdPro
The word Stephanos is a Greek word not a Hebrew word. If you are making links like this in your theory then your entire thread has lost credibility in my opinion.

Can you please point out where in his thread The Redneck claimed Stephanos was a Hebrew word? I saw him make no such claim. Also, even if he did (which I do not even see), that is not a major issue in the least bit. Your claim that such a minor error negates his entire theory is about as stupid as if you had said his thread lost all credibility due to the fact he made a typo somewhere in his OP. Get real. That has got to be one of the worst strawmen I've ever seen used on ATS.

Well if you research into the translation of the Hebrew bible (old testament) into greek (The Septuagint). One scholar describes it as "...reasonably well translated, but the rest of the books, especially the poetical books, are often very poorly done and even contain sheer absurdities". Revelations is considered to be one of the more "poetic" books, therefore, you cannot base any prophecy on the greek text and say it reflects the TRUE visions of John.

You are basing a prophecy on "Sheer absurdities" if you translate revelations using "The Septuagint" according to Wikipedia.

Source: en.wikipedia.org...

Two quick corrections:

Originally posted by IceColdPro
Revelations is considered to be one of the more "poetic" books, therefore, you cannot base any prophecy on the greek text and say it reflects the TRUE visions of John.

If we are discussing the technical style of Revelation, is actually not included in the 'poetry' or 'prophetic' divisions. It is classified under what was known as 'apocalyptic style literature.'

You are basing a prophecy on "Sheer absurdities" if you translate revelations using "The Septuagint" according to Wikipedia.

Why would I translate Revelation using the Septuagint when Revelation is not included it in? Revelation is a New Testament book most likely originally penned in Greek while the Septuagint is strictly the Greek translation of the Old Testament Hebrew books. Revelation hadn't even been written yet, as well as none of the New Testament books. The Septuagint is strictly the Old Testament books.

Hopefully I am misunderstanding you somewhere.

reply to post by IceColdPro

Absolutely true! You caught me in an error, good show.

I kept talking about Hebrew-English translations, when in fact I should have said Greek to English. My bad, and I apologize to the readers. The translations are accurate, only my wording is wrong.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by Fett Pinkus
strangely enough i was thinking of Obama after reading the title

but I guess thats just a coincidence after all the talk of him being the antichrist and saviour at the same time...

I to directly thought of Obama being the black horsman, as mentioned above...

I do not study the Bible enough, to hold as intulectual of a conversation as i would like, but if my memmory serves me right, does Revelation not say that their will be a false prophet that comes befor the second comeing of christ, who will be of a middle eastern decendancy.... It also mentions something about being a verry good speaker, who is verry charismatic and of forked tongue (ie: a snake, who in the garden decieves) and hasnt obama allready shown himself to be a liar who can lead many without them questioning?

just some food for thought

Originally posted by Gunsron
I to directly thought of Obama being the black horsman, as mentioned above...

I do not study the Bible enough, to hold as intulectual of a conversation as i would like, but if my memmory serves me right, does Revelation not say that their will be a false prophet that comes befor the second comeing of christ, who will be of a middle eastern decendancy.... It also mentions something about being a verry good speaker, who is verry charismatic and of forked tongue (ie: a snake, who in the garden decieves) and hasnt obama allready shown himself to be a liar who can lead many without them questioning?

just some food for thought

The only problem is that pretty much describes any politician outside the ethnics of it. Also, he would have to be leader of the world, which he is not.

reply to post by TheRedneck


Well thought, well written, something to be proud of, S & F for you.

That being said and done, I don't agree with your assessment or interpretation but I can and do recognize and acknowledge your convictions, keep up the good works my friend.

reply to post by IceColdPro


My but aren't we a the high horse of ignorance!!! I simply stated a theory that has been around for a few hundred years. Before you impune my intensions maybe you need to reread history because evidently you have forgotten most of what you've read or never read any! Your ignorance Sir, is beyond the pale!
Zindo

I am not a Bible scholar and would never pretend to be, but I have a serious question here.

According to the Bible, that most believe, it is supposed to be the word of God transcribed through men (from what I understand.)

Of course, for you to believe in the Bible you have to believe in at least one of the Abrahamic religions. Most people that believe in one of the Abrahamic religions either live in or near the Middle East or have spread to Europe or the Americas through conquest and/or genocide of the native peoples and/ or some cases of assimilation.

A question immediately comes to mind here. If Revalations is truly a prophecy of upcoming times, is it meant for every human? Are Africans and Asians/ Indians (roughly half or more of the worlds population) meant to hear and understand these 'prophecies'?

Does any Christian think any other culture unscathed by the Judeo/ Christian enigma will or could understand such a prophecy?

Personally, I do not think so. If a Christian/ Jew or Muslim sat down and simply said their religion is not for everybody then maybe I could take it as some serious precognitive script.

Honestly though, that whole question is secondary and insignificant.

The real question of 'Biblical' prophecy and the Bible is interpretation. What makes the pastoral version of the Bible valid? That is something I believe has been answered and I will echo it here. Men. Men that will look at words through a collidascope. They will see them differently even though the words they are looking at are exactly the same. They will see them differently because in some cases they want to. They will see them differently in some cases because it is comfortable and they will see words differently because they can not truly understand their meaning.

In my opinion the pastoral version of the Bible and the true meaning of the words are not interpreted correctly. It is interesting to see how the beginning of recorded history sets the table for mis-interpretation. I know the ancient Egyptions, Sumerians, Indians, Orientals and Africans would disagree with everything the Jews, Muslims and Christians think they know about God and their future today. I won't sit here and say my interpretation is fact, but I can say there lies more evidence that the Torah has more definition in the stars than it ever will have in shephards and Messiahs.

And I believe Jesus tried to convey that to his apostles. Hence the constant frustration and misunderstandings. Hence the unknowingly wrong Nicene version of the Bible.

OP, I have read your posts before and have great respect for them, and I have the same respect here. I admire your effort.

reply to post by asmeone2

Speaking of "green" and "ethanol" why is it no one gets upset about all the grain, fruit and vegetables used in the making of alcoholic beverages? I called one of the distilleries that is in my locality (central Kentucky) and found out that this ONE DISTILLERY used 844,000 bushels of corn this year producing bourbon. Where is the outrage to this? How many people could you feed with 844,000 bushels of corn? I dont drink because I have never seen the benefit of it. I would like to hear your thoughts on this.

reply to post by spy66

What dose God mean by a seal. What is a seal!

I love it when threads like this are questioned! The result is great questions like this... spy66, that is a fantastic one!

So, I looked up the word translated as 'seal', and found the Greek word ( ) sphragis, with the following definition from Strong's:Source: www.apostolic-churches.net...

It is a strengthened term form of phrasso, the definition is given as:Source: www.apostolic-churches.net...

Phrasso is in turn a strengthened form derived from the same base as phren, which is defined as:Source: www.apostolic-churches.net...

In modern life, when I think of the word 'seal', I think of the seals on the doors of semi-trailers (comes from driving a truck too long, I suppose). Those seals are there to verify that no one has opened the doors since the seal was installed. There is no way to open the doors without breaking that seal and leaving an indicator that the integrity of the cargo inside may have been compromised.

I also think of the seals that come on DVDs and CDs when you buy them. They have a white strip of thin plastic along one or more sides of the case that indicates whether or not the case has been opened. I have always assumed this was to act as an alarm to someone buying the disc that it may have been tampered with (i.e. stolen) by shoplifters, and the case not removed for reason of stealth.

The Greek words translated as seal would seem to bear this out. A seal upon a book acts like a 'fence' in that it prevents reading of the book unless the seal is broken, thus leaving an indicator of that action. In my personal interpretation, the seal on the book in Revelation would be a type of fence to keep the contents of the book hidden, until someone came along with enough understanding to open the book and learn those contents.

As to why God would have placed a seal there, think a moment. In the 1980s and 1990s there was a huge scare about homemade atomic weapons. Books had been published (usually covertly; the Anarchist's Cookbook comes to mind) that explained just how easy it really was to build an atomic bomb, if one only had the radioactive components. In other words, the information was deemed to be so dangerous in the wrong hands as to justify attempting to have a seal of secrecy being placed there to prevent the knowledge from falling into the wrong hands. I see this as very applicable to God's purpose as well.

Think about what would happen if people really knew what goes on in the spiritual world, unseen to them in everyday earthly life? I have no doubt in my mind that there are angels stationed around me every day, and especially when I drive that truck. Some may disagree with me, but I have felt my tires slip on ice many times during my career driving, and then immediately felt my truck 'catch' itself on an ice-covered road, not from the tire traction, but as if something had grabbed it. I have seen my truck in situations where gravity simply does not work that way; I should have been rolling down that bank, by all rights. Some will deny that this happened, and tell me there is a 'logical' explanation, but I know better. I was there.

If there are angels among us, no doubt there are demons as well, unseen to the physical eye, but there nonetheless. And it isn't much of a stretch from there to realize that there is simply no telling how many other spiritual entities also exist among us that we simply do not see.

Now, what would happen if somehow that veil could be lifted and our eyes behold this wondrous realm? Would we become terrified? Would we go mad even?

There are things on this earth (such as Area 51) that men should not know. There are also things in the spiritual realm that man is not capable of knowing. It is a wise parent who protects their children form things which their young minds are not ready for, and a wise God who similarly protects His children as well.

Praise the Lord! Flame away.

TheRedneck

Nice thread - and I make a point to stay out of biblical and prediction threads.

Anyway, you make reference saying it's difficult to say who's riding the black horse. Possibly Bush. I think the rider would probably not be a single entity. The rider, I would think, could be our government, or more specifically the corruption of our government by corporate (capitalistic) entities and the military industrial complex and it's compartmentalized structure.

This world of perceived threats and militarization has been developed since the early 50's. We've had countless people (including our forefathers) warn us of this possible internal threat to our nation. Two of the more recent people to warn us of the threat were Eisenhower and Kennedy. By then, I think it was too late for the people outside the compartmentalized structure to change anything about the way it operated. Now we, as a nation, are at it's mercy and it's will.