Real Contrail Science, why they persist and why they spread out and why they are not chemtrails

reply to post by OzWeatherman
Your explanation does not answer the fact of all the chemicals that have been found in the deposits that fall from the air containing red blood cells, bacteria and fungus, poisonous chemicals, barium, arsenic, etc. Also some of the patterns would not come from regular plane routes. Then there is the data connecting morgellins disease with the same compositions of chemicals and also increased rates of respiratory and heart problems and other flu like symptoms following within days of these sprayings. I also saw a picture of a plane equipped with the special spraying device on it. There are many reputable scientists on the web who believe in chemtrails and I don't think they're all wrong!

Originally posted by zorgon

Originally posted by pteridine
Many ideas are floated and white papers are written with no intention of pursuing research in the topic area. A white paper does not show anyone involved in any research. White papers are written for various reasons and may be instigated by the writer or a funding entity.

See what I mean? No matter what direction one shows that there 'might be'something to it, you skeptics always have an answer why its not good enough as evidence...

Well considering I just started looking into the 'sun block' angle and right off the bat I find someone of this man's caliber at least "thinking" about it hard enough to write a paper... I think I will follow what he says as opposed to armchair skeptics

At least he has credibility behind him

I just hope you are never called for jury duty

Actually, Zorgie, I don't see what you mean. I didn't say that there was nothing to science considering "sun blocking" by finely divided particles, I said that white papers do not imply actual research. If you find evidence of research please present it.

As to the jury duty comment, you are probably the guilty party's dream in that you are so easily led by heresay and fauty logic. You also feel obliged to use the smiley's to show your true feelings since your words are inadequate.

OP: you were "disappointed; you wanted a debate"?! Why?

Chemtrails are obvious for what they are: noxious artificial clouds...
and you debunkers are even more obvious, hopefully to your own demise on ATS...

Click here for more information.

Well i can certainly reply, they have been relentless over victoria bc for weeks and weeks, months, they even did a donut right over the airport where the original whistle blower resided, wish i had my camera, i have many too many pics starting in may this year, complete with u turns etc, when they are doing this, and it is they plural, the us airforce in co-hoots with whom ever is paying the bill, i have downloaded satellite shots, printed mind you because you cannot save satellite shot the us ones anyway, the 4 kilo animated from a day or two before ? the hurricane ? weather mods,? you bet, are they monitering me? you bet, did i send this stuff to a safe place? you bet, i posted on a local weather site that day that i was monitoring the 1 kilo image, i then went for a walk, when i returned they had blanked out the west coast sat image precisely where i was looking, so i went back to the 4 kilo animated which has 30 min intervals, and yes they blanked it out too for the period of what they they are doing, so? I know i am going to get mucho flack for this one, but #1 are they really doing this ? inequivecably, YES, a patch of blue sky appears and they are right there, yes we see the commercial traffic above where contrails naturally form and dissipate, the sky becomes this milky pale blue as in the wrong color, so obvious, there is a glare to the whole sky, no way a person can look anywhere near the sun, even when storm systems come in they are doing this above the storm clouds, and as , the other strange thing is, i live on the edge of the pacific ocean, where the hell are jets going north too? out over the pacific, sure alaska, not jets that big, and they overfly are not heading for seattle or vancouver, and sometimes are piggy backing, so not commercial, thus military, JP8 fuel perhaps long range bombers and kc 10 and kc 135 strato tankers, ongoing you bet, i have had co-workers tell me that they went out on thier deck at 2 in the morning under a full moon and looked up into a sky with a criss cross grid in it, doubt? for me none, whatever they are doing is edward tellers madness, and the long term repercussions for humanity and the planet in general are lethal to put it mildly. The only option in my mind is talking about this practise, pointing it out to other people, because once you learn to see spew for what it is you will always be able to spot it, then we as a people must speak out as 1, because what they are doing is total madness....cheers all

[edit on 20-11-2008 by voodmon]

reply to post by OzWeatherman


1. You have no Credentials to challenge. The ones you did post did not even belong to you. This was confirmed, which is why I am surprised to see you mention it.

2. You stormed off because you lost. "You are the ones who are losing, lacking proper argument, and trying to bait the rest of us "

3. Your myriad insults and ad hominem attacks only serve to display the obvious desperation in your failed attempts at producing substantiative refutation to our claims or forming any sort of rebuttal. You fail.

I will not allow you to bait me into going further off topic.

[SNIP]

Have a nice day

Oh and dont forget your gasmask when you go outside.....and try not to get beaten up for wearing it" -Grrrrr!

Edit:

[edit on 20-11-2008 by TruthTellist]

Mod Edit: Civility and Decorum are required


[edit on 23-11-2008 by Gemwolf]

[SNIP]

And this is all bunk. Until someone can explain to me why chemicals are not found in samples from all sites around major population centers with matching traces of chemicals (i.e. a smoking gun, which should exist, but does not), I'll consider this a huge fantasy.


Mod Edit:
Mod Edit: Civility and Decorum are Required
No personal insults please!

[edit on 21-11-2008 by Gemwolf]

Originally posted by dave420
That is proof that they were involved in it, not that it's currently going on.

See? Not so hard... at least we found SOMETHING that even you call proof . Research takes more than one quick look on google... One step at a time I DO have a day job ya know

reply to post by TruthTellist


I am waiting for you to address the issues so you can be "on topic." You know what they are by now. The burden of proof is on the theorists. Stop whining and get on with it or wait until you have some argument worth making.
Zorgon has already given up.

Here is the list so far of supporting links provided by Chemtrail Theorists to this discussion

(I would like to thank those members who took the time and effort to contribute such relevant data, your efforts are appreciated.)

www.chycho.com... - Germany admits chemtrail operations

www.rense.com... - Chemtrails coming out the closet

www.evergreenaviation.com... - Evergreen aviation spray planes

home.iae.nl... - Chemical testing admitted

thomas.loc.gov...:H.R.2977.IH: - Kucinich bill HR.2977

globalresearch.ca... - Weather modification

weatherwars.info... - weatherwars

www.redding.com... - news article

www.bbsradio.com... - radio article

www.holmestead.ca... - chem link

members.aol.com... - chem link 2

educate-yourself.org... - educate yourself chemlink 3

www.holmestead.ca... - evergreen cia front

www.carnicom.com... - carnicom 1

www.abovetopsecret.com... - ats thread

www.holmestead.ca... - more cia link

www.carnicom.com... - carnicom 2

www.theforbiddenknowledge.com... - forbidden knowledge chemtrails link

www.alienzoo.com... - alien zoo link

home.iae.nl... - chemical testing admission

www.sourcewatch.org... - cia links

www.lewrockwell.com... - cia tie in 2

www.abovetopsecret.com... - another ats thread

www.bariumblues.com... - barium blues

www.abovetopsecret.com... - bioweapons tested on citizens

www.carnicom.com... - aircraft mechanics claim

www.apfn.org... - biological experiments on citizens

foia.state.gov... - foia link

www.lib.berkeley.edu... - declassified documents

www.wramc.army.mil... - walter reed army docs

www.wramc.army.mil... -

creeping nematodes

www.chemtrailcentral.com... - Chemtrail central

weatherwars.info... - weather wars

www.youtube.com... - scott stevens youtube vid

illuminatimatrix.wordpress.com... - alt chemtrail view

www.rense.com... - weather modification rense

www.chycho.com... - german army admits spraying

news.bbc.co.uk... - usa admits chem weapons testing

www.timesonline.co.uk... - times online article

globalresearch.ca... - canadian site

www.abovetopsecret.com... - ATS thread

www.infowars.com... - info wars link

en.wikipedia.org... - wiki chemtrails

www.youtube.com... youtube vid , toxic sky

www.metacafe.com... toxic sky part 2

video.google.com... google video, clouds of death

www.bariumblues.com... haarp patent

www.montalk.net... montalk cloudbusting info

www.youtube.com... youtube search cloudbusting

www.freepatentsonline.com... patents list

www.patentstorm.us... patents list 2

video.google.com...# - google video wilhelm reich

www.geocities.co.jp... torsion fields

chem11.proboards2.com... - chemtrails discussion

www.exopolitics.org.uk... - chemtrails and orbs

www.bariumblues.com... orbs photo'd

www.youtube.com... youtube vid

www.rense.com... more rense research

www.novavax.com... novax site

www.montalk.net... - chemtrails and sars

www.guardian.co.uk... - newspaper story

www.youtube.com... youtube vid

www.proliberty.com... - proliberty site

www.myhero.com... - dr rosalie bertell biography

www.youtube.com... dr rosalie bertell states chemtrails real

www.youtube.com... dr rosalie bertell on haarp

www.whale.to... chemtrails site

www.youtube.com... youtube cloudbuster search

www.youtube.com... youtube cloudbuster search 2

www.uow.edu.au... sci fraud

seattlepi.nwsource.com... sci article 1

www.nature.com... sci article 2

physicsandphysicists.blogspot.com... sci article 3

More to come.... Thanks to all those members who contribute data for us to examine.

reply to post by pteridine


*You are clearly Feigning ignorance of the vast amounts of relevant literature and research that is available.

Spraying Heavy Metals To Stop Global Warming


J.D. Aber and K.J. Nadelhoffer, "Nitrogen Saturation in Northern Forest Ecosystems." Bioscience, 39 (1989) pages

378-386

American Geophysical Union, "Jet contrails to be significant climate factor by 2050," AGU press release no. 99-19,

6/21/99

R.B. Ames and W.C. Malm, "Estimating the Contribution of the Mohave Coal-fired Power Plant Emissions to Atmospheric

Extinction at Grand Canyon National Park." In Visual Air Quality" Aerosols and Global Radiation Balance, Air and

Waste Management Association, Pittsburgh, Pa., 683-697, 1997.

Marcus Dalton, "Chemtrails Are Over Las Vegas." Las Vegas Tribune, vol. 7 Issue 3, 8/19/05

S.L. Baughcum, "Subsonic aircraft emission inventories, In:Atmospheric Effects of Aviation:First Report of the

Subsonic Assessment Project." NASA RP-1385, pp. 15-29, 1996

Bill Gallagher, "Chemical Aurora Keyhole Surveillance." Arizona Indymedia, May 2004

Laura Kelly, "Mysterious powder shrouds area." The Alpenhorn News, Feb. 2006

D.M. Hunten, "Residence Times of Aerosols and Gases in the Stratosphere." Geophysical Research Letters 2(1): 26-27,

1975

A.C. Mueller, "The Effects of Particulates from Solid Rocket Motors Fired in Space." Advances in Space Research 5

(2): 77-86, 1985.

U. Schumann, "In Situ Observations of Particles in Jet Aircraft Exhausts and Contrails for Different Sulfur-

Containing Fuels." Journal of Geographical Research, Vol. 101, Issue D3, 1996.

Weather mod. patent Numbers


6569393-5/27/03-Method and Device for Cleaning the Atmosphere.
6520425-2/18/03-Process and Apparatus for the Production and aerial dispersion of Nanofibers.
6412416-7/2/02-Propellant-Based Aerosol Generation Devices and Method.
6315213-11/13/01-Method of Modifying Weather.
6263744-7/24/01-Automated Mobility-Classified-Aerosol Detector.
6056203-5/2/00-Method and Apparatus for Modifying Supercooled Clouds.
6030506-2/29/00-Preparation of Independently Generated Highly Reactive Chemical Species.
5984239-11/16/99-Weather Modification by Artificial Satellite.
5762298-6/9/98-Use of Artificial Satellites in Earth Orbits Adaptively to Modify the Effect that Solar Radiation

Would Otherwise Have on Earth's Weather.
5628455-5/13/97-Method and Apparatus for Modification of Supercooled Fog.
5286979-2/15/94-Process for Absorbing Ultraviolet Radiation Using Dispersed Melanin.
5104069-4/114/92-Apparatus and Method for Ejecting Matter from an Aircraft.
5038664-8/13/94-Method for Producing a Shell of Relativisitic Particles at an Altitude Above the Earth's Surface.
4999637-3/12/91-Creation of Artificial Ionization Clouds Above the Earth.
4873928-10/17/89-Nuclear-Sized Explosions without Radiation.
4686605-8/11/87-Method and Apparatus for Altering a Region in the Earth's Atmosphere, Ionosphere, and/or Magnetosphere

Originally posted by pteridine
Zorgon has already given up.

I have?

with that list Truthtellist just provided I see months of research ahead

Originally posted by voodmon
Well i can certainly reply, they have been relentless over victoria bc for weeks and weeks, months, they even did a donut right over the airport where the original whistle blower resided, wish i had my camera, i have many too many pics starting in may this year, complete with u turns etc, when they are doing this, and it is they plural, the us airforce in co-hoots with whom ever is paying the bill, i have downloaded satellite shots, printed mind you because you cannot save satellite shot the us ones anyway, the 4 kilo animated from a day or two before ? the hurricane ? weather mods,? you bet, are they monitering me? you bet, did i send this stuff to a safe place? you bet, i posted on a local weather site that day that i was monitoring the 1 kilo image, i then went for a walk, when i returned they had blanked out the west coast sat image precisely where i was looking, so i went back to the 4 kilo animated which has 30 min intervals, and yes they blanked it out too for the period of what they they are doing, so? I know i am going to get mucho flack for this one, but #1 are they really doing this ? inequivecably, YES, a patch of blue sky appears and they are right there, yes we see the commercial traffic above where contrails naturally form and dissipate, the sky becomes this milky pale blue as in the wrong color, so obvious, there is a glare to the whole sky, no way a person can look anywhere near the sun, even when storm systems come in they are doing this above the storm clouds, and as , the other strange thing is, i live on the edge of the pacific ocean, where the hell are jets going north too? out over the pacific, sure alaska, not jets that big, and they overfly are not heading for seattle or vancouver, and sometimes are piggy backing, so not commercial, thus military, JP8 fuel perhaps long range bombers and kc 10 and kc 135 strato tankers, ongoing you bet, i have had co-workers tell me that they went out on thier deck at 2 in the morning under a full moon and looked up into a sky with a criss cross grid in it, doubt? for me none, whatever they are doing is edward tellers madness, and the long term repercussions for humanity and the planet in general are lethal to put it mildly. The only option in my mind is talking about this practise, pointing it out to other people, because once you learn to see spew for what it is you will always be able to spot it, then we as a people must speak out as 1, because what they are doing is total madness....cheers all

[edit on 20-11-2008 by voodmon]

Please have a looK at flight routes DONT assume because of were you
live NO PLANES will fly over. I flew to to States from London ROUTE TAKEN
north from London over Northern Ireland just south of Iceland over Nova Scotia and down to Detriot.THE REASON FOR ROUTE MOST EFFICIENT DUE TO THE CURVATURE OF THE EARTH get a grip on reality LOOK AT FACTS not URBAN MYTHS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by TruthTellist
reply to post by OzWeatherman

 

"Correct me if Im wrong" -OK, I will. It is your thread and since you did ask:

I'm 74.

I'm a lot of things at this point in my life.

I still own a plane and used to be TV weatherman back in the 1960's.

I am also a Veteran - Korea ('51-'53) and retired Lieutenant Colonel.

You on the other hand, are not a Meteorologist and know nothing about aircraft.

But you are still young...

*I also have a boat, Call me "Captain"



[edit on 19-11-2008 by TruthTellist]

LOL just because your 74(my dads 73) doesn't mean your any more informed my qualifications are all engineering and science based and I PMSL at some of the logic used on things like 911/moon hoax /CHEM TRAILS etc.
A lot of posts on here are CLAIMING every CON TRAIL is a CHEM TRAIL
spraying my city etc etc.
While I have no DOUBTS experiments are beeing done re weather cloud seeding etc and patents have been made for all kinds of strange ideas (lots of patents made to get financial gain if copied)
More than 100,000 aircraft flight per day more people travel by air than EVER BEFORE so more con trails as for deliberately spraying citys YEH RIGHT!. Also saying things like I HAVE seen pics of planes kitted out to spray of course you can! but that DOESN'T prove EVERY PLANE is DOES IT!
Like I have said in previous posts dont assume because were you live means you should have no planes over head SHORTEST routes taken were possible to save fuel time etc . Look at flight route map the globe is criss crossed with routes. Just because some FRUIT CAKE started this BS off years ago doesn't mean its TRUE!!!

[edit on 21-11-2008 by wmd_2008]

Originally posted by wmd_2008
A lot of posts on here are CLAIMING every CON TRAIL is a CHEM TRAIL
spraying my city etc etc.

Are you referring to a different thread than this one, as I have not seen A SINGLE post that claims this, let alone 'a lot of posts'?

Do you preview your posts before hitting the 'Post Reply' button? - certainly doesn't look like it.

To the OP:

Thank you for explaining the nature of persistent contrails.

I don't think any sensible person could read your OP and deny that contrails can indeed spread out and persist.

Your OP says that persistent contrails are not chemtrails - well duh! Apples are not oranges either.

However, just because persistent contrails exist, and are sometimes mistaken for chemtrails, does not mean that chemtrails do not exist.

So thanks for the science, it is quite educational if that was your intention, but it doesn't actually debunk chemtrailing, if that instead was your intention.

However, it does create a more interesting space for chemtrail advocates to display their ideas and evidence - thanks for that.

Best
RT

reply to post by RogerT


Chemtrails are good for us. We should feel safe beneath this blanket of protection.

When you see 'chemtrails' - You are actually witnessing the ongoing deployment of the primary ordinance of a lidar defense system.

This is a part of the NATO Aerosolized Defense Grid. This grid utilizes Lidar and high powered radar in order to detect and eliminate threats. HAARP is used to 'move' by attraction the heavy metal particulate that has been deployed into the atmosphere, extending its efficacy by prolonging the length of time it remains airborne, to better illuminate a target, and greatly increasing the effectiveness of respective sensor technologies.

As it is a defense system, and an expensive one at that, the operations occur over the areas most vulnerable to soviet and chicom attack - the ones populated by Humans and their vital industry.

This is part of a defense system, it is for your own good ;-)

Our governments care about us. "Chemtrail" deployments are nothing more than a symbol of their love for us - they are showing us just how much they care about us.

And remember; not all the lines in the sky are a part of the defense system, so be glad when you notice ours - and feel safe, because someone is looking out for you and know that they care...

*Example: Heavy metal particulate can virtually nullify the radar-absorbant qualities of the 'stealth-enhancing' coatings on our planes and their missiles (Russia, China). In conjunction with Lidar, the particulate acts as a reflector of sorts, greatly enhancing the strength of a signal in saturated airspace.

The plane leaves some what of a "wake" as it's passage through the airspace creates turbulence that can be more readily detected by the Lidar and tracked.

So when the ordinance eventually reaches the ground, you shouldn't be angry or upset - you should be grateful, knowing you are being safe from the horrors of thermonuclear annihilation. I know I am.

I might even get a microchip implanted somewhere in my body, just so I can be even more safe - and even more grateful.


[edit on 21-11-2008 by TruthTellist]

Originally posted by TruthTellist
reply to post by RogerT

 

Chemtrails are good for us. We should feel safe beneath this blanket of protection.

When you see 'chemtrails' - You are actually witnessing the ongoing deployment of the primary ordinance of a lidar defense system.

Not much good for me in England where all we get are ice crystals left by commercial air traffic and not a chemtrail ever to be seen

Anyway, why would this defence system only be visible on certain days and only in areas of heavy air traffic? Indeed, why would it be visible at all? And why do they appear identical to ice crystals? Or are they ice crystals? Or are all the pictures we see of alleged chemtrails really just contrails as some of us have been saying all along and this lidar defence system is something completely separate?

This thread is ridiculous. We have three groups of people - bystanders, believers, and skeptics. The bystanders are looking on while the believers desperately try to cobble together some hypothesis that backs up their preconceived ideas of government, and the skeptics are just all "lol! wut?" in the face of such logical absurdity.

Those who believe in the absence of evidence will not be dissuaded by evidence: they have elevated their beliefs above the rational. It is now a religion.

Originally posted by Zepherian
reply to post by dave420

 

You do not tell me what I saw, I tell you what I saw. You have no intelectual position to dictate to me what reality is. You, much like me, are just a semi anonymous name on the internet, and the line is we defend our own positions and either agree or disagree. You do not cross that line. You do not tell me what reality is. You either agree or disagree or shut up.


You have done nothing but troll negativity on this thread, and it is based on nothing but your own ego and other people's posts, most of which are, at best, off base. What I am saying is based on my own personal experience, and that my friend, is out of bounds to you.

Whether chemtrails are something you're being paid to deny or just the very notion of them encroaches on your confort zone and makes you have knee jerk emotional reactions is something I'm not sure of, but either way I suggest you deal with the reality of chemtrails, because they are part of an opressive scenario that will tend to get worse over time, and sooner or later will spill over into the personal lives of everyone reading this thread.

Again, I am not debating with you, I am warning you. Whether you listen or not is your choice, but you have no say in what my message is.

Originally posted by Zepherian
reply to post by dave420

 

I did not see contrails, I saw 3 instances of unidentified planes out of normal flight paths spraying over civilian populations. Whether you believe that or not is you choice, but you do not dictate reality to me. You are not that smart.

.

BOLD TEXT PARANOID or what YOU WORK foe ATC then thats how you know all possible flight paths?

[edit on 21-11-2008 by wmd_2008]

[edit on 21-11-2008 by wmd_2008]

[edit on 21-11-2008 by wmd_2008]

[edit on 21-11-2008 by wmd_2008]