Real Contrail Science, why they persist and why they spread out and why they are not chemtrails

Originally posted by wmd_2008
Lets see if the CON TRAILS stop over California which they WONT!
So what will you chem trail boys claim then???????

You seem confused...

The post you are referring to that I pointed out chem spraying is type 1, not type 3. Be skeptic all you want but at least pay attention.

:shk:

Originally posted by Essan

So while the chemtrailers get angered because they see harmless persistent contrails, the real spraying carries on unregarded

Ah finally someone with a brain My point exactly. Whether or not we can actually see them as what has been dubbed 'chemtrails... there is no doubt we are getting dumped on by all sorts of nasty stuff.

As I said I am still on the fence on the type three chemtrails But I am not discounting them at this point.

Originally posted by TruthTellist
I also have a boat, Call me "Captain"

Only if the boat is big enough

Originally posted by pteridine
When you use low altitude bug spraying as an example of chemtrails, you are not addressing the issue of high altitude, secret dispersion of chemicals hidden in or in place of condensation trails.

Kewl So finally we have a working definition from a skeptic of what we are talking about

So at least you admit we are being doused by all sorts of chemicals, but you are focusing only on the ones that look like contrails. Now we are getting somewhere. These in my book are the type three...

I hope that this helps the thread and helps the believers focus on what they are trying to show. We are still waiting for evidence of willfull dispersion, actual compounds being dispersed, the planned effects of such a dispersal, and the actual effects on the targets.

Now someone mentioned barium... barium is very heavy and would settle out quickly but unless you get the right kind of water soluable compound its not very harmful

Here is a fact sheet
www.atsdr.cdc.gov...

What is Barium and how is it used?

Barium is a lustrous, machinable metal which exists in nature only in ores containing mixtures of elements. It is used in making a wide variety of electronic components, in metal alloys, bleaches, dyes, fireworks, ceramics and glass. In particular, it is used in well drilling operations where it is directly released into the ground.

www.epa.gov...

So Barium is already everywhere and would naturally show up in water supplies. So makes no sence for that to be in chemtrails...

ALUMINUM

Well this is what I have heard is being used... and what I am looking for at the moment.

The purpose? Surprisingly IF this is what they are doing, the intent is helpful, not harmful.

The intent and theory is that these tiny particles of aluminum would stay in the upper atmosphere and somehow energy from HAARP like transmitters would keep them 'charged' to stay up there.

The purpose being to attempt to block some radiation from the sun, which we all know is the real cause of global warming

So there you have the 'theory' No proof naturally... but if and when I find it I will gladly share



Other than that I have no other data on the Type 3 chemtrails... but I am looking


[edit on 20-11-2008 by zorgon]

reply to post by zorgon


Zorgon: Check my first few posts in another chemtrail thread recently:
HERE (Ignore the first post)

plenty of barium related stuff.


PS: I'm glad you agree barium isn't the enemy here...Wish more do what you do and look into things instead of jumping to conclusions



[edit on 20-11-2008 by Chadwickus]

[edit on 20-11-2008 by Chadwickus]

Dr. Edward Teller
Biography

Edward Teller was born January 15, 1908 in Budapest, Hungary. In 1926, Teller left Budapest to study chemical engineering in Karlsruhe, Germany. In Karlsruhe, Teller became intrigued by the new theory of quantum mechanics and, following a brief time at the University of Munich, he transferred to the University of Leipzig to study with Werner Heisenberg. Teller received his doctorate in physics in 1930.

After graduation, he took a job as research consultant at the University of Gottingen. Teller might have settled down to a long, productive career in Germany, but, political events intervened. Adolf Hitler came to power in Germany and Teller knew immediately that there was no future for him in Germany. With the help of the tight-knit community of advanced physicists, Teller was able to emigrate to Denmark in 1934. There he joined the Institute for Theoretical Physics, to work with the Niels Bohr. In 1935, Teller and another Bohr's students, George Gamow, enter the United States to work at George Washington University in Washington, DC.

users.owt.com...


Why is he important?

Dr. Edward Teller wrote a white paper in the late 1990s describing a remedial operational strategy, epic-in-proportion, to change the predicted course of what was believed by an international group of scientists, including Dr. Teller and Livermore National Laboratories, to be the inevitably cataclysmic results of global-warming, crisis level Ultra-Violet/Cosmic radiation, crisis Ozone layer depletion and other theoretical doom. It should be noted that Dr. Teller, "Father H-Bomb," was responsible for many ill-conceived strategies; not one of which considered consequences such as safety, toxicity, lethality, environmental impact or ethics.

According to Teller, et al, ultra violet (UV) radiation from ozone depletion and global-warming from the harmful effects of greenhouse gases could be effectively mitigated through the deployment of specific sub-micron particulates into the various layers of the atmosphere.

Barium, aluminum, thorium and selenium were to be processed into a sub-micron particle dispensed from high-altitude aircraft and ionized with a specific electrical charge. We must surmise that ionization keeps the specific heavy metal particulates aloft for longer periods of time.

This electronically-charged particulate matrix might also be the perfect RF control field. Theoretically, the heavy metals would block and reflect the sunlight from entering the Earth’s atmosphere and reflect 1 percent to 2 prevent of the UV radiation back into space causing UV radiation levels to decline.

Teller also recommended the use of commercial and military aircraft to carry out the enormous task of seeding the Earth’s stratosphere with these experimental substances.

proliberty.com...

Now this is proof that high level scientists ARE INDEED involved in this research...

We just need proof of implementation





[edit on 20-11-2008 by zorgon]

reply to post by zorgon


That is proof that they were involved in it, not that it's currently going on.

Originally posted by dave420
reply to post by zorgon

 

That is proof that they were involved in it, not that it's currently going on.

Actually it was just a report, did they actually carry it out?
And if I recall correctly the hole in the ozone actually got bigger in the late 90's. So maybe if they did try it out, it actually made it worse...

reply to post by wmd_2008


I know exactly what flight routes I am under. I can tell when a plane is going on the normal south american route or when it is coming here. There are only two hypothesis. Inbound and outbound local traffic or cruising altitude south american bound jetliners. When you see 3 or 4 planes crisscrossing in front of the island at about half the cruising altitude without landing you know something is out of the ordinary.

And it wasn't an airshow.

Bravo my friend, Bravo. Common sense prevails at last.

Originally posted by zorgon
Now someone mentioned barium... barium is very heavy and would settle out quickly but unless you get the right kind of water soluable compound its not very harmful

Barium is very heavy, but according to a source I cited earlier in this thread, it can stay airborne as a result of industrial emissions, for several days. If so, that is more than enough time to drift a significant distance from an industrial area, to a suburban area.

But, more importantly, this thread is finally morphing into what every other contrail/chemtrail thread turns into.....discussions about the crap that has been documented as being introduced into the atmosphere; whether it be "cloud seeding", radar chaff experiments, etc....

The concerned "enthusiast" would advance the subject much further, with less rancor, if they would simply stop looking at the fluffy white contrails, insisting they are "chemtrails" and focus on less obvious and more stealthy practices.

reply to post by Zepherian


I'm sure you think you know everything about your local air traffic (which you would have to to know that something is definitely out of the ordinary). As a human being, though, I'm pretty sure you don't.

You do know ATC doesn't always keep the planes in the same corridors, right? That weather fronts mean they have to move planes around?

reply to post by Chadwickus


Fair enough - good point!

Originally posted by TruthTellist
reply to post by Essan

 

Wasn't it a 'contrailer' who just stormed off in a huff because he was losing the debate? - that's right, it was

You crazy 'contrailer's just don't know when to give up - but it really is entertaining watching you try to defend your position from the facts flying at you.

Your beliefs are not based on reality. You are ignorant. AND you lost the debate.

Now Go run away like your friend; 'resident weatherguy'

There is no need for you guys to be such sore losers about this.

Hi TT, I thought you were ignoring me!

My beliefs are based on decades of solid meteorological research which no-one has refuted.

Your beliefs are based on disinformation. Why would someone want you to think normal contrails were chemtrails? So you didn't suss out what was really happening! How the sheeple are easily led

It is quite possible that chemical spraying takes place (though I know of no conclusive evidence)

There is no evidence, nor any rational reason, why such spraying would be visible from the ground.

There is plenty of evidence that spraying of some chemical substances occurs - whether anti radar chaff, pest control or cloud seeding - which is definitely not visible form the ground.

What you see are not chemtrails.

reply to post by Zepherian


I assume you're in the Canary Islands or Maderias? Be useful to know when discussing stuff like this.

I don't have data for flightpaths over that area so can't really comment. However the point remains that if chemtrails exist they wouldn't necessarily be sprayed over the Atlantic and there is no reason whatsoever why they would be visible from the ground. leaving normal aircraft contrails as the most likely explanation for what you see.

Originally posted by zorgon

Originally posted by pteridine
When you use low altitude bug spraying as an example of chemtrails, you are not addressing the issue of high altitude, secret dispersion of chemicals hidden in or in place of condensation trails.

Kewl

So finally we have a working definition from a skeptic of what we are talking about

So at least you admit we are being doused by all sorts of chemicals, but you are focusing only on the ones that look like contrails. Now we are getting somewhere. These in my book are the type three...

Doused? You are eating all sorts of chemicals. Food consists of chemicals, man made and natural. Water is a chemical compound and you drink it. It seemed like a good idea to define the issue because those that initiated the chemtrail idea were not disposed to define it. Once defined, it should eliminate all posts not addressing the definition.

Amazingly, this thread is about contrails not being chemtrails. You may have invented various dousing types of some sort in a book, of sorts. If you wish to advertise your book, pay ATS the advertising fee and stop cluttering up this thread.

I reaffirm my position that the proponents of chemtrails have no focus, no succinct claims, and deny that the burden of proof is theirs.

reply to post by zorgon


Many ideas are floated and white papers are written with no intention of pursuing research in the topic area. A white paper does not show anyone involved in any research. White papers are written for various reasons and may be instigated by the writer or a funding entity. Usually, they are written to provide information to senior level folks and often they are requested in anticipation of funding requests, possible legislation, or congressional hearings.
We do not have information on why Teller wrote the white paper. Most probably, he was asked to write it based on his knowledge of physics.

Originally posted by pteridine
Many ideas are floated and white papers are written with no intention of pursuing research in the topic area. A white paper does not show anyone involved in any research. White papers are written for various reasons and may be instigated by the writer or a funding entity.

See what I mean? No matter what direction one shows that there 'might be'something to it, you skeptics always have an answer why its not good enough as evidence...

Well considering I just started looking into the 'sun block' angle and right off the bat I find someone of this man's caliber at least "thinking" about it hard enough to write a paper... I think I will follow what he says as opposed to armchair skeptics At least he has credibility behind him

I just hope you are never called for jury duty

reply to post by Essan


It's Madeira Arquipelago, which is an autonomous portuguese territory. I had already alluded to this by mentioning Funchal International.

And give up with the "contrails are the most natural explanation" mantra. I totally reject that hypothesis and have in length gone into reasons why in Oz's original debunk thread, you know, the one which makes this one redundant. So stop trying to have the last word, I will not let you. You're just trying to take over the thread with your posts, by volume and not by truth.

[edit on 20-11-2008 by Zepherian]

reply to post by dave420


There's not that much to know about my local traffic, we are 1000kms out from mainland europe at a slightly lower latitude. And yes, I know they put planes on holding patterns and whatnot, if you bother to read Oz's other thread, where I give a more in depth account of my first chemtrail sighting, you'll see I even went to the trouble of confirming the planes were indeed in a holding area... laying down chemtrails. They however did not land here, they came, held and sprayed, and then left. And there was no bad wheather anywhere near the island on the days in question, in one case the chemtrails were being laid after a big stormfront had gone by, a few days earlier.

I know what I'm talking about, you do not.

[edit on 20-11-2008 by Zepherian]

Originally posted by zorgon
See what I mean? No matter what direction one shows that there 'might be'something to it, you skeptics always have an answer why its not good enough as evidence...

You appear to be completely misinterpreting the comments here. Not unusual for you, but it should be mentioned. Yes, it is good enough evidence that "there might be something to it"....but a "white paper" isn't evidence that "there is something to it." Especially given the general knowledge that "stuff" has been introduced into the atmosphere for some time. It isn't a particularly "DOH!!!" kind of revelation.

The post you're answering is simply pointing out the lack of "smoking gun" qualities to a white paper.

Feasibility studies don't equate to production systems.