Real Contrail Science, why they persist and why they spread out and why they are not chemtrails

reply to post by zorgon


No, that is fuel being burned inefficiently as the engine goes through a massive change in power output, just a car's exhaust can be smokey when it is doing the same thing. You can even see the smoke coming from the actual engines and not from any vents on the wings/fuselage.

reply to post by dave420


You know how easy it would be to add parts to an engine that perposly break down overtime, releasing chemical/metal particles from it's emissions?

It would be easy to design an engine to do this on purpose. and discretly.

you could have it release a large amount every week, going unoticed.

reply to post by monkeybus


Yes - it would be fantastically difficult. There is no way you could fit that amount of material to a jet engine and have it degrade in such a way that it didn't cause massive instability to an engine. Jet engines are so finely balanced that they can't have things just wearing away inside of them. There would have to be a massive amount of material in the jet engine designed to degrade, otherwise the amount of chemicals you'd get out of said engine would be minute. Even the slightest damage to a blade in a jet engine can cause massive damage to the engine.

Not to mention it would be very noticeable to anyone servicing the engines, and the cat would be out of the bag.

Originally posted by dave420
That's my point - we need the believers to actually quantify what a chemtrail is, where they are found, and when to find them. Once that is done, getting a sample would be a lot easier.

So, you aren't serious, you are just wasting time. The believers need to quantify? Really? That's your answer? You are going to stick with that?

reply to post by zorgon


I wonder if the administrators can add a "crayon" font to this text editor. Seems like it might be useful.

No zorgon....those aren't contrails at all.....and you know that. You're simply being ridiculous. The first are turboprop C-130s at takeoff, inefficiently burning fuel and leaving exhaust. The second is an even bigger environmental disaster....B-52s with water injection. The water "fooled" the engines into thinking they were getting more oxygen....and produced the tremendous amount of smoke seen in those photos.

You're so far off the point of "chemtrails" that your "enthusiast" status is now doubtful.

reply to post by monkeybus


monkeybus shoots!!!!!!.........and completely misses the backboard.

Oh sure, I can see the engineering discussions now...

"Hey, I know....let's build an engine with parts that intentionally degrade, and sell them for 2 to 10 million USD."

Heh.

reply to post by Essan

The question was what is...
"Misty pollution rain"

In southern california, its basically the closest thing we have to fog.
What often happens is theres a large storm front and the planes come out in mass, 10+ consistently in the air for hours prior to sun down, crossing back and forth making a full grid over miles of city.
Within 24-48 hours the obvious and well forcasted rain does not fall, it has been turned into a # storm, a foggy mist of pollutants, its horrible to walk around in and it collects on all things out doors. (car washes do well after "rain" like this)
The following day if you examine all the plant life the leaves are covered in a gross waxy chemical coating and where leaves form a cuplike space for water to collect there is metal! shiny metal thats all there is to it shiny metal collected allllll over the plants and ground oh yah i forgot about the ground! after lots of "CONTRAILS" and some bad "rain" you can swipe your finger across the dry concrete anywhere in any city affected and your finger will be COVERED in metals, shiny metal.
Now after a matter of days you can see a buildup of metallic particulate in toilet bowls and sinks in public places, because the water supply has been significantly affected(outdoor aqueducts in s. cal). This may sound to out there but those metals DO NOT deposit on said places unless there are lots of "CONTRAILS" days before, thats just a fact i observed, deny it, whatever.

In any case when there are excessive "CONTRAILS" lol regardless of the weather system you can find barium rocks

JUST like those little guys. (wikipedia image) collecting at ground level wherever the wind is obstructed, i observed the most on stair steps and street curbs i can predict when these little rocks will be abundantly present based on the "CONTRAIL" activity, with 100% accuracy.(all you have to do is look up)
Your attempt to discredit the origin of the barium by saying it could be downwind etc is silly cuz the spraying goes on over entire counties/states so its everywhere like i said. When i said i collected it, that was collections i took from my 2nd story balcony, therefor it fell from the sky, where else would it come from than the planes. sigh. the stuff collected by the handfuls at times it was really frustrating, you can even see this # floating in the sky.
If you go outside with lotion on your hands on a bad day, after a short time your the fine metals will collect on the lotion on your skin and it looks like your wearing glitter(it got a lot of laughs out of my girlfriend at the time who was the first to notice)

You stated "chemtrails"
"look and behave identical to contrails. "
do contrails create entire weather systems out of clear blue sky?
do contrails spread out into large cloud formations causing unnatural sunsets?
do contrails mark X's and square off regions of sky that are then visibly affected within minutes while the surrounding regions remain the same?
this is a good one...
do contrails create black shadows parallel to themselves as they appear?
do contrails cross over a particularly large cloud system causing complete evaporation of those clouds within minutes of their crossing?

"Chemtrails" DO.

OH!
Do contrails cause unrivaled sickness in the days following their presence?
Everyone gets the SAME sickness at the same time and its the worst "cold" you'll ever get ever. ugh i hate what my friends and i have coined the "chem sickness" always and only occurs after heavy "CONTRAIL" activity.
--i woke up with that sickness this morning--guess what, yesterday had more "CONTRAILS" then any day in the last 3 months. (in Washington)

I could go on for days, about this.

Click here for more information.

Originally posted by thefreepatriot
reply to post by MrPenny

 

it flies in the face of reality NOW but not then.. that is the key point... I suggest you read the article i just posted on how the mod admits they have sprayed the public in the past... They also even admit the research is STILL ONGOING.. .open your eyes for god sakes.. my point was if you can't open your eyes now and see what is going on.. then people like you in those times would have also beleived the world was flat then... This is IN YOUR FACE and you still don't beleive it. amazing..

LETS see why dont we poison the population, I know lets spray chemicals from aircraft to do that and lets make sure they can see it! YOU THINK ABOUT IT!

Originally posted by s0ndernet
When i said i collected it, that was collections i took from my 2nd story balcony, therefor it fell from the sky, where else would it come from than the planes. sigh.

Well, it could have come from 6 miles above your head. Or it could have come from all the ground level pollution. Ever seen a car?

You stated "chemtrails"
"look and behave identical to contrails. "
do contrails create entire weather systems out of clear blue sky?

Yes.

Or, rather, contrails are more common ahead of weather systems. As most people have known for decades, It hardly a secret!

do contrails spread out into large cloud formations causing unnatural sunsets?

Yes.

do contrails mark X's and square off regions of sky that are then visibly affected within minutes while the surrounding regions remain the same?

Yes

this is a good one...
do contrails create black shadows parallel to themselves as they appear?

Yes. They're called contrail shadows and are as mysterious as rainbows are.

do contrails cross over a particularly large cloud system causing complete evaporation of those clouds within minutes of their crossing?

If you mean distrails, then yes. We've been studying such phenomena for decades

Do contrails cause unrivaled sickness in the days following their presence?

No.

Everyone gets the SAME sickness at the same time and its the worst "cold" you'll ever get ever.

Evidence?

What makes you think this is due to contrails which occur all the time. If you lived in my town you'd be suffering this 12 months a year .....

Don't get paranoid. Have you ever noticed that you only ever get a cold after you see stars in the sky?

Has it not occurred to you that someone is making you think well known and much studied meteorological phenomena is responsible in order to divert attention from the truth? No? Well, I suppose folk on ATS aren't disposed to conspiracies ....

Who is fooling who?

[edit on 19-11-2008 by Essan]

Id like to clarify it is my opinion that chemtrails are a part of Weather Modification. While i've read and heard convincing information and observations regarding potential use as everything from mind/frequency control to spraying of biological morgolons type shight, i am only certain of the facts and the facts are that these metals and chemicals are used to modify weather and are sprayed out of planes to do so.
oh....L2GOOGLE before you waste time trying to PROVE your abundant ignorance.

Recent News:

On October 22, utility giant Pacific Gas and Electric posted a “Notice Of Intention” in the Mt. Shasta Area Newspapers outlining their plan to conduct a five-year “weather modification” program in southern Siskiyou County.

It is a process that involves “injecting” silver iodide aerosol (AgI) into already existing clouds where the substance mixes with moisture and promotes the growth of additional ice crystals. It is, in a sense, a way of “wringing out” more water from clouds. Weather modification programs have also been designed for hail suppression and fog dispersal, according the report.

www.mtshastanews.com... ther-modification-plan-raises-concerns

High levels of Silver (Ag), Barium (Ba) and Strontium (Sr) and low levels of copper (Cu) have been measured in the antlers, soils and pastures

The elevations of Ag, Ba and Sr were thought to originate from both natural geochemical and artificial pollutant sources – stemming from the common practice of aerial spraying with ‘cloud seeding' Ag or Ba crystal nuclei for rain making in these drought prone areas of North America, the atmospheric spraying with Ba based aerosols for enhancing/refracting radar and radio signal communications as well as the spreading of waste Ba drilling mud from the local oil/gas well industry across pasture land.

linkinghub.elsevier.com...

Need i say more? Do i REALLLLLY? have to post pictures (i have 100s saved)
You're now arguing with someones first experience with a 'conspiracy'.
I was confronted with this chemtrail issue at age 18 and it was the only thing i studied for a LONG TIME, back then you didnt have information like above to make it easy you had to prove to yourself what you believed based on what you had seen, you had conspiracy sites(mentioned below)
It all started for me when one day in Anaheim Hills, California i showed up to work at 9am to find what i could only describe as Aurora Borealis. Odd right?
I was late to work as i watched cloud-like masses morph colors as 2 orbs**
spiraled upwards through the chemicals reforming their shape into a double-helix.
When i got home that day and began to google, all i had was my personal observation and description to go off of which was clouds spraying and orbs flying. all i found weatherwars.info and orbwar.com later i found carnicom.com and others to explain what i had seen.

**
This is a picture a friend and I captured on a heavy chemtrail day. we have seen these orbs at a distance like this picture and i have seen them jump from high in the clouds half the distance to me in a split second. Matter of fact i've seen these orbs so many times now and have stopped enough people on the street and been like 'hey you see that right' 'yah' that i dont even bother to photograph or wait till they disappear anymore i go on about my day.


**

Good Post!!!!!

reply to post by wmd_2008

Good post....?
Really? I thought it was characteristically weak. o well. more to come, sorry to continue to burst your bubbles with facts.
Notice he replied 'yes' without any proof....im citing observations that don't require proof, your responses do im sorry to say. That is, if you want to make a point without coming across as a debunk monster.
Weather Modification is a fact and the metals/chemicals the planes spray is documented and also fact. How its sprayed is documented and also fact.
Talk about contrails all you want planes ALSO spray chemicals.

A few months later, my first confirmation that what i was seeing and learning about, called chemtrails, was part of weather modification and again i was in Anaheim Hills, CA.
We had a large fire in nearby hills and the smoke was filling the skies where commercial planes traveled daily, this was a hazard and the local news reported that there would be weather modification to clear the smoke from the skies to allow for safe plane travel.
I took a 2 hour lunch (luckily i did not get fired) to watch the spectacle i wanted to know if the chemtrails i saw regularly in that region modifying weather (moving and removing clouds) were the same as the ones which were about to come clear the skies for the commercial planes.

I saw the same chemtrails as i normally would they created a grid and swept the smoke out of the valley, pretty neat actually.
I saw the planes criss cross criss cross lots of x's to mark the spot etc and the smoke would be condensed into a cloud-like mass before being pushed out to the ocean just like the news said they would do.

The news had helped to prove what i had considered a theory!

I WAS SO HAPPY! i could now site evidence to my family and friends who thought i was becoming a whacko! this was a traumatic time for me as i started to realize for the first time (through the chemtrail phenomenon) that the government was not working in favor of the peoples well being. something i now know very clearly.

Its simple really, some states have weather modification in their legislature.
A few months after that i happened upon a .ca.gov website which had a pdf on it and an article discussing new weather modification policies in the state.

The pdf described the setting up of a panel of people to study and take charge of the project INCLUDING and it said this, members of committees from other states who had already had experience with weather modification.
This showed me that none of this was new as the conspiracy sites had said, weather modification of this time is an old and ongoing thing.

Ultimately in California what i found was that weather modification was most often used to affect seasonal shopping, if its raining in southern california people don't go out and shop and spend money the same, they take it as one of the few rainy days and stay inside.
I also found it being used often when any natural weather system might incur insurance costs due to heavy rains and flooding and the like, those big storms were often if not always turned into misty foggy polluted 'rain'.

Today we are aware of private companies who will modify weather for a price and it isn't beyond the corrupt insurance companies and corporations to pay a small fee to have the weather the way they like it, the way that makes them more money than the cost of the modification. simple.
Heres an example:
Hail Damage Mitigation Project

As mentioned in a prior post, the committee is made up of members from other weather mod groups from other states.

SEC. 4. WEATHER MITIGATION ADVISORY AND RESEARCH BOARD ESTABLISHED.
(G) at least 1 shall be a representative of a State that is currently supporting operational weather mitigation projects.

[Weather Mitigation Research and Technology Transfer Authorization Act of 2007]

Heres another google freebie:
Chapter 558 -- Weather Modification

Like i said L2GOOGLE noobs.

[edit on 19-11-2008 by s0ndernet]

reply to post by dave420

How do you know the barium came from the planes? That's a guess, right? Unless you collected them directly from the plane, they could have come from anywhere.

How do i know the bird sh!t thats on the top of my car is from a bird!!!!
Unless i collected it directly from the bird, it could have come from anywhere!!!! ZOMG

How do i know? well your right someone could have thrown the barium into the air onto my second story balcony on roof tops and in the cracks of everyones car windshields. they could be throwing up in the air all day for days on end your right.

Actually, to be polite about it, since planes are the only thing high enough in the sky to get these metals onto roof tops and the like, then it is safe to assume that the metals are dropped by planes. especially when the people doing it tell you about it in the news and in state legislature including what chemicals/metals are used and how its sprayed out of planes.
--
Reply to Essan:

Well, it could have come from 6 miles above your head. Or it could have come from all the ground level pollution. Ever seen a car?

Nope what are cars. That said....have you ever seen a such a thing called a 'car' throw barium chunks the size of pebbles by the handful ontop of buildings of ANY height.
One will find these barium rocks on a second story as much as a 20th story, where i was observing. Do these 'cars' throw rocks?
(edited to add quote)

[edit on 19-11-2008 by s0ndernet]

[edit on 19-11-2008 by s0ndernet]

Originally posted by dave420
All the evidence suggests yes - it is just aircraft-induced condensation.

Originally posted by zorgon

...carbon dioxide (CO2), small amounts of nitrogen oxides (NOx), hydrocarbons, carbon monoxide, sulfur gases, and soot and metal particles...

sounds like more than water vapor to me... what kind of 'metal particles' are formed in military jet exhaust

So they are not Chemtrails, but Chemically Laden Contrails

(bold emphasis added)

So the common thread in all this attempt to debunk is that they think the trails people are seeing in the sky are AT ALL TIMES contrails.
But you choose to ignore the legislature that states there is weather modification in the form of aerial spraying of chemicals/metals.

Then whenever anyone attempts to share their experience with said metals or presumed airplanes you simply say the magic word contrail and the argument continues.

THERE IS NOTHING TO ARGUE ABOUT HERE PEOPLE
A. Planes spray chemicals into the sky
B. Planes leave ____trails in the sky

We can presume then that some of the trails are laden with those chemicals.
and therefor name those trails instead of their given unchemicalized name CONTRAIL.....
CHEMtrails or contrails with chemicals in them. a fact already documented on this board A LOT.

The only actual issue here is the difference in appearance of contrails and "chemically laden contrails" aka chemtrails.
Is there any? if not than any assumption that a contrail is chemtrail is as true as anyone stating the opposite.

reply to post by Essan


I said:
"(chemtrails) are often used on the west coast for over the horizon communications"

by Essan
Here in the UK we use satellites

Is that to say chemicals/metals are not sprayed in the air for the purposes of improving communications, because your wrong if thats your assumption.

again L2google and read.
(it gets frustrating spending my time proving this stuff when its so easily found)

the atmospheric spraying with Ba based aerosols for enhancing/refracting radar and radio signal communications

Source

OR

In the past, the technique of using the ionosphere as a mirror to reflect radio waves, or RF energy, has given Ham Radio operators the ability to send transmissions over long distances. This technique has also provided radar systems the ability to look 'over the horizon'. Variations and fluctuations in the ionosphere, however, can render the effectiveness of such communications uncertain. Thus, the desirability of creating controllable plasma layers in the atmosphere...has been recognized.
The patent outlines quite clearly the means by which artificial ionospheres...
1990 Stanford University paper entitled 'Overview of Ionospheric Modification from Space Platforms'...
Modification to the ionosphere can last for up to hours from [barium] injections.

Source

(Edit for poorly coded link)

[edit on 19-11-2008 by s0ndernet]

reply to post by Essan


I do admit that my argument was too weak for this discussion. However, comparing chemtrails to the tooth fairy is not a valid comparison.

I do not care to argue about this sunject matter too much. Maybe if I had more time.

I have an idea. Why not just somehow test the "contrails/chemtrails" themselves, within seconds of coming out of the plane, to see if they are composed of any chemicals, and to finally resolve this on-going dispute.

Here is the proof - cadmium was sprayed by planes in the UK:

www.bbc.co.uk...

www.mirror... .co.uk/news/tm_objectid=16201962&method=full&siteid=94762&headline=toxic-gas-tested-on-norwich--name_page.html

www.bbc.co.uk...
news.bbc.co.uk...

www.springboardmedia.org.uk... wich.pdf

[edit on 19-11-2008 by tommyc]

[edit on 19-11-2008 by tommyc]

Originally posted by dave420
That's my point - we need the believers to actually quantify what a chemtrail is,

Type 1 - This one is easy since CHEMTRAIL is short for Chemical Contrail, I would say any trail that is MORE than just condensation of water would be technically a chemtrail. A plane leaving chemical residue in its exhaust as part of its performance would then be a true chemtrail. It may not be a deliberate one, but it IS one.. A plane leaving a trail of smoke or badly burned fuel is most certainly creating chemtrails

Type 2 - Any form of spraying for pesticide, cloud seeding and 'experiments' would in fact be chemtrails, even some that are invisible. These type are definitely deliberate, for a purpose they feel is 'beneficial'

Type 3 - The ones you most likely are referring to. Those that are at high altitudes and cover grids. These naturally we have yet to prove, but that they are capable of doing so is not in question..

The use of Agent Orange by the US Military, from the late 1940s through the 1970, was extremely wide spread. It may not be much of an exaggeration to say that Agent Orange was probably used at all military bases located on foreign and domestic soil, at some time or other. An extensive overview of military use of Agent Orange can be found at www.bluewaternavy.org... and there are several documents very specific to this extensive, such as found at bluewaternavy.org...

Korea

In September 2000, the Veteran Administration (VA) recognized that Agent Orange was used in Korea in the late 1960s.[17] Republic of Korea troops are reported to have done the spraying, which occurred along the demilitarized zone with North Korea. The VA has also acknowledged that Agent Orange was used domestically by U.S. forces

Canadian Forces Base Gagetown, New Brunswick, Canada

The U.S. military, with the permission of the Canadian government, secretly tested many unregistered U.S. military herbicides, including Agent Orange, in the forests near the Canadian Forces Base Gagetown in New Brunswick in 1966 and 1967. On September 12, 2007, Greg Thompson, Minister of Veterans Affairs, announced that the government of Canada is offering a one-time ex gratia payment of $20,000 as the compensation package for Agent Orange exposure at CFB Gagetown.

Globe, Arizona

Billee Shoecraft died in 1977 of cancer. She began suffering from cancer after a helicopter sprayed her with the defoliant Kuron. Before her death, Shoecraft wrote a book about her experience in which she said that after she was sprayed her eyes were nearly swollen shut, her arms and legs were swollen twice normal size and her hair was coming out in patches.[20] Kuron, a herbicide related to Agent Orange, was sprayed by the U.S. Forest Service to thin foliage and increase water runoff in the Pinal Mountains of the Tonto National Forest near Globe, Arizona, in 1968 and 1969. Dow Chemical Company and the U.S. Forest Service paid an undisclosed sum to five families. Shoecraft wrote a book entitled, Sue the Bastards!, about her incident in 1971.

Guam

After a veteran contracted a disease from Agent Orange, the United States Court of Appeals for Veterans concluded that toxic herbicides have been used in Guam. During the Vietnam War, Guam was used a storage facility for Agent Orange. A CBS News report on June 12, 2005, said Agent Orange was sprayed on Guam from 1955 to 1960s, and in the Panama Canal Zone from 1960s to 1970s

The above clips were from Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org...

So you may wish to spend thread after thread debunking 'chemtrails' while implying there is no spraying of the populace going on.

where they are found,

Generally speaking I find them in the sky...

when to find them.

Well since WE don't have the spraying schedule, it would be difficult to know where they are going to be ahead of time to be ready to take a sample