Welcome to the USSA

I can't believe some of you are serious. Today was a great day in american history, and all many of you can say is how sad it is, or how President Obama is some kind of socialist freak. Get real and pull your heads out of your asses. This is a conspiracy website and yet many of you are die hard republicans. ALL POLITICIANS ARE INDECENT. But if you are to look at track records for most republicans you would see the truth. They are pre-dominantly corporate backed puppets. Democrats are mostly corrupt as well with all the pet bills and policies. Obama claims to offer something different. Our country is heading into a big recession, we are fighting two wars, and other countries view us as an imperialistic nation. If Obama says he will do his damnedest to turn it all around and offers ideas that sound like a step in the right direction, it would be un-American for me not to give him my vote. Progress is what I love and what has made America so great in the past and Obama is our best shot at it. I refuse to give my vote to a man who has 7 houses and doesn't even know the addresses to all of them. A man who married a woman who wears 300,000 dollar dresses with 250,000 dollar earings while 100,000s of people in the midwest walk home from their job of 20 years to find out they are laid off permanantly...just then their 401k drops because of the wrecklessness of the republican party. And most of you are say you voted for more of that? What a joke. McCain is a good guy. A good guy surrounded by bad people who make all his decisions for him. So just for the record, Im a white guy in the state of Michigan, who works at a factory testing fuel lines for American vehicles and I voted FOR Obama. It is a great day and a huge turning point, lets give him a chance.

reply to post by sos37


Maybe you have enough information to explain why, over the last 2 years we've experienced the HIGHEST ever of Jobs Cuts in our Nation? And who's being leading through the last years?

Why do you focus on what seems to be speculation, when you should look at how we are right now, thanks to our current Leaders... ?

Please, take me out of the idea that ANYTHING will be much better than the GOP's poor ability to lead. I want you to.

You cannot be realistic when you have not experienced the outcome of what is nothing more than pure speculation. Now you can bring conclusions out of what's NOW a reality, and it's that GOP can no longer guide this Country to a better tomorrow.

Give it up.

reply to post by prestonberryworth
You are clueless. Do you own your own business to make your $60K? No? So you are employed by someone else, right? If your employer gets screwed over, do you really think that person will just roll over and take it? Do you think they got into that position being a moron? Well, if your employer gets screwed with an increase in taxes, they will have 2 choices: pass along this new "cost" by increasing the price of their product, which will ultimately wipe out your whopping $4K in cuts, OR they will cut the staff of their company. The trickle down effect of either option means bad, bad situtation for everyone. Any moron knows that you cannot stimulate the economy by increasing taxes on anyone. So good luck with your huge $4K cut in taxes.

Originally posted by jazket
reply to post by sos37

 

Maybe you have enough information to explain why, over the last 2 years we've experienced the HIGHEST ever of Jobs Cuts in our Nation? And who's being leading through the last years?

Well, which party has been in charge of congress? Clue me in.

Originally posted by sickofitall2012
reply to post by ClintK

 

And just where in the H_ _ do you think this money going to come from? Anyone making more than $42,000 will be taxed. I have worked my way up from poverty, got a college education all on my own without a handout. I'll be damned if I'm paying one more cent in taxes. What do think "redistributing the wealth" means? That is socialism!!!!

You made my point about not wanting to read or deal with facts. Obama is only going to raise taxes on people making over 250,000 per year, not 42,000. Thanks, though. You helped prove my point that Obama hating paranoids are hysterical and not conversant with the facts.

Ooops. I wasn't responding to the post above.

[edit on 5-11-2008 by ClintK]

Originally posted by TheAvenger

Originally posted by prestonberryworth
To the OP:

You have not a clue what you are talking about. The "Obama spreading the wealth tax plan" does not change our country in any signifigant way. It will screw you over with higher taxes either, unless you make over 200k per year. If you make over 200k per year why are you complaining? You're rich, you're still going to be rich. I make 60k per year and under Obama's tax plan I'll save about 4k per year in taxes. That money will go back in to the economy I'm sure.

Also you're a really bad parent if you work 60 hours a week and don't spend time with your children. Stop whining.

The flaw in the Obama / Robin Hood plan is that raising taxes on small business owners, the ones who generally make over 200K/Yr, will force them to raise their prices for provided goods and services. Joe the plumber et al will raise his prices, and YOU will still pay for the Obama tax increases.

I see a plausible argument. for once.

Here is a question though: How much of our economy is fueled by small businesses....

On your average month of shopping.... how much of what you spend goes to a small business....

Trip to the gas station... No
Trip to walmart... no
Trip to the movies .... no
Once every 8 months call the plumber of the mechanic... maybe

Doesn't seem to me like it's that significant.

But I've read many articles quoting small business as "substantial" part of the economy... However substantial it may be, 70% of our economy is consumer spending that does not go to small businesses, it goes to big malls and super stores.

So even if small businesses contribute "substantially" this contribution is squeezed under the remaining 30%... hard to tell for me how much of this also trickles down to the other 70% as of course, every time you go shopping at the mall, this mall needs to hire security guards and air conditioner maintenance people, and so on, so there is some small business influence in the 70% although not that substantial.

Whether or not the small business crunch that this tax plan is suspected to create, I am not quite convinced that the average man on the street is going to be hurting more as a result. If anything they will have more discretionary income and spend more, which would... conceivably help offset any crunch for small business... Instead of buying mac and cheese for Friday night dinner, now the average man on the street can afford to order a pizza from the friendly small business pizza store around the corner.

No matter how you slice it, all those businesses are not going to succeed if they don't have customers who can afford to pay for their goods or services. So anybody who claims they have the ultimate answer on what is going to happen, better back it up with either history or some other real world data, because it is a complex system where the effects are always double edged.

Maybe an ATS member who has an actual small business earning 300K or so and has actually done the math can spell out in numbers and consequences what they believe is going to happen. Will they be forced to fire people? will they have to cut back on benefits for employees? will pricess go up, will they close doors? What is their current situation right now? are they doing well, are customers cutting back on spending? It would be a refreshing change from all the speculation and unfounded fear to see some actual data.

One key factor that is not accounted for in all posts I'm reading is how does an economic plan account for projected inflation or hyper inflation.

When inflation occurs, essentially banks are quick to respond to stay afloat, and everybody down the money pyramid responds at increasingly longer delay, Larger businesses raise their prices quickly, retail takes a moderate penalty because they have stock to clear, and as you move down the chain, the time it takes for prices and wages to catch up goes up, finally the average worker responding the latest, in other words, from the average McDonalds employee to the highly paid engineer, will see his salary catch up with inflation years after the inflation has taken place, so there is a lag period where his salary is low compared to inflation. This is a well known fact about how inflation works.

Whether or not we are about to enter an inflatory phase in our economy, is not for me to discuss here, but the signs are all there that the value of the dolar is dropping, along with the values of many other world currencies.

A tax plan that anticipates inflation would therefore have to favor the low income consumer unless we don't mind having a whole bunch of people struggling to pay the bills and a whole lot of small and large businesses dependent on discretionary income loosing a big number of customers.

-rrr

Originally posted by GamerGal

Originally posted by tsloan
This country goes through economic down turns about every 10-12 years?

Hmmm, and look at the sway of things lately. Reagan and Bush 41, economy tanks. 10-12 years later Clinton, Economy sky rockets. 10-12 years later Bush, tank. I don't think 10-12 years passing is why the economy tanks...

Well..... the point of that statement was it takes 2 to tango..... And the only 2 parties have been Democrat or Republican.... I'm not going to sit here and side a finger pointing session... Yes you make a good point! But the other side can very well say"Well it was the momentum effect of our economic policy that happened after we were out of office. Do you see the problem with both of those views? THEY DONT SOLVE THE PROBLEM.
If you own 2 companies and every 10-12 years you screw up orders to your customers so bad that it affects your customer base. The companies who buy your product isn't going to wanna see you blaming your other company for your screw up. No! The companies that buys from you will tell you to go F yourself and take there business else where. Well it's the same thing here. The republicans and democrats have been screwing everyone over with tax increases here and cuts there and a ression here and down turn there...And you clowns keep right own drinking the looney punch they give you till your so blind you can't even see what's going on.




[edit on 5-11-2008 by tsloan]

From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs.
Karl Marx

Let me make it clear that there is nothing wrong with that, as long as it is voluntary. Is that not, after all, the cornerstone of a family? However, if it is forced upon men by other men, under law, then it becomes one of the greatest evils known to man. It is the voluntary aspect that makes you compassionate (charity), and the resistance to the mandatory that makes me a Conservative.

The begining of the end........the golden age is almost over...see you in the rice fields comrad........Russell in Baton Rouge La.

The real problem that I believe is going un-noticed is the push toward globalization which both parties are in league with. The TRUE leaders of this country arent, republican or democrat, The are an Enlightened inner-circle bent on creating a future where one world gov't, religion, and allegance can thrive. How much you pay in taxes this year will be trivial when your in a work camp or even worst.....!

Originally posted by fedup2
reply to post by prestonberryworth

 

You are clueless. Do you own your own business to make your $60K? No? So you are employed by someone else, right? If your employer gets screwed over, do you really think that person will just roll over and take it? Do you think they got into that position being a moron? Well, if your employer gets screwed with an increase in taxes, they will have 2 choices: pass along this new "cost" by increasing the price of their product, which will ultimately wipe out your whopping $4K in cuts, OR they will cut the staff of their company. The trickle down effect of either option means bad, bad situtation for everyone. Any moron knows that you cannot stimulate the economy by increasing taxes on anyone. So good luck with your huge $4K cut in taxes.

Where do you think that those 4K in saved tax money are going to go? hmm.....

Could they possibly be spent and put back into the economy....

What do you think will happen to the economy when ... umm... I don't know 250 million people (conservatively) spend 4K more a year in goods and services... let's see.....

isn't that one trillion dollars a year added into the country's economy from the bottom up?

or does somebody have a better idea of what to do with their 4K rather than spend it... Save it? do you think that the typical person can afford to get 4K and not spend it right back?

-rrr

So much doom & gloom.... I don't get it. What's the deal with Obama? I haven't heard or seen anything new & improved in this NWObot that would make me care one way or the other about him being elected. Now... what would freak me out is if this guy laid low during the campaign & once in office takes on a whole new persona. That would take some freaky talent that not many possess..... and I do mean "possess".

reply to post by jazket


I would have voted for anyone other than obama. Colin Powell for instance, oh and he's a black man. SO I GUESS IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH COLOR!!! IT HAS TO DO WITH POLICIES AND PATRIOTISM. I SWEAR! IF I HEAR RACISM ONE MORE TIME.....

Originally posted by jazket
reply to post by sos37

 

Maybe you have enough information to explain why, over the last 2 years we've experienced the HIGHEST ever of Jobs Cuts in our Nation? And who's being leading through the last years?

Why do you focus on what seems to be speculation, when you should look at how we are right now, thanks to our current Leaders... ?

Please, take me out of the idea that ANYTHING will be much better than the GOP's poor ability to lead. I want you to.

You cannot be realistic when you have not experienced the outcome of what is nothing more than pure speculation. Now you can bring conclusions out of what's NOW a reality, and it's that GOP can no longer guide this Country to a better tomorrow.

Give it up.

Oh I'll be happy to explain it to you. The last 2 years have seen a Democratic Congressional majority. You have people like Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi ruling by their own stupidity and ignorance and it's done nothing but make trouble for this nation.

I posted relevant examples of what is to come. We have every right to be concerned and wary of what is to come, based on the comments coming from Congress and even some of the comments Obama himself has made.

The current GOP may not be able to guide this country to a better tomorrow, but at least they wouldn't be taking us 50 years backward like an Obama presidency and Democratic Congress will do.

And as for giving up sir, I love this country. I will NEVER give up and compromise my principals and sell out to someone who has the prettiest package to sell. People like you cannot say the same.

I didn't vote in this election. McCain and Obama would both be bad for the country. I actually would rather have Obama though over McCain because I like Obama's foreign policy initiatives better (not that I think they will happen). The fact of the matter is, when Obama and the Democrats start to tax more and increase regulation exponentially, things will really go down the tubes. Next election, people will be clamouring for a free market president.

Thank you everyone for voting for Obama!

Obama will be the swift kick in the ass that the stupid, ignorant American people need to finally see that they have been duped by a fake and pethetic two party system.

Obama will give you change all right!

Not the change that eveyone is thinking of!

Obama will give new meaning to the words TYRANT and DICTATOR!

I can't believe that 80% of the people on this board fell for his stupid and obviously fake propaganda!

The only good Obama will do is fully awake the ignorant people to how much of a Tyrant and Dictator he is, and only then enough people will shake those swirlies out of their eyes and look and see whats really going on!

The biggest problem with that though is that is when the blood bath will really begin!

I see a lot of fear and cynicism on this thread. I see terms like socialism, fascism, dictatorship thrown around carelessly all because a politician promises to ease the financial burden on the working class. This is extremist thinking by uneducated chicken littles. I suggest you read up on the aforementioned isms before you label people. Sounds like tenacious old War scare tactics.

Have we forgotten that it was less than a century ago when the IRS first started taking money from our checks. Now nearly 1/3 of my check goes to paying taxes. While the education and healthcare systems continue to crumble, we pump millions of our tax dollars to fund unfounded wars. For what? To spread democracy? The only thing we have accomplished there is the death of 2,600+ American soldiers and 600,000+ Iraqi citizens and counting. This is not why I pay taxes.

I struggle to put aside substantial savings to support a family while Exxon Mobil breaks its previous record for profits. Corporations receive massive tax breaks which CEOs use to inflate their already ludicrous salaries. Banks have used a 12 year policy of deregulation to manipulate the system and make more money for themselves. Now our economy is tanking because of credit and stocks. Make no mistake, this is not natural ebb and flow, this is the sh*t hitting the fan. What happened to using money for the exchange of goods and services? This is capitalism gone rampant. This is what happens when CEOs slip in and out of Washington. This is not a company, it is a country.

This is exactly the kind of imbalance of power and wealth our fore fathers warned about. And now when a man suggests a return to that ideal, he is branded a socialist. Compared to the business as usual of unethical extreme capitalism, yes it would seem rather liberal. Look at the facts people. Unless you are pulling in over half a million a year, which I doubt anyone posting on ATS is (no offense). You will only benefit from his proposed plan.

Even if you are making $250-$603K, the Obama plan is only raising taxes by a mere $12 and not giving a tax break. If you make more than $603K, yes you will be taxed much more. You may need to deflate your salary to keep your business afloat. You may need to sell one of your homes. Thats just a taste of what it is like for someone who has lost their only home because they couldn't get work or their wages had only increased 3% while the cost of living continues to rise.

Have we lost sight of what truly matters? Have we become so opulent that we favor money over quality of life. The rich people of this nation sit in their air condition environments rarely breaking a sweat. They go home to their mansions filled with their pricey adornments and solutions for modern living while the backbone of America can barely get food on the table. When most of the world survives on $2 a day, you are whining because you will only be able to afford 2 cars instead of 3.

To the conspiracy theorists who have lost all faith in government, I feel you. But just look at the swell of joy that has spread around the world. Friends and enemies alike are happy for us. We the people have flocked in record numbers to vote for the underdog. He is no son of a former president, not a former CEO or bloodline to aristocracy. He is a community organizer and teacher of the Constitution. He is not a terrorist, he is an idealist. He is not a socialist, he is an American dreamer. If you are like me, and you hear those idealistic promises, you may automatically dismiss them as rhetoric, because that is what we are used to. But maybe now, this is real. Maybe when Obama speaks these words, he is not lying to us. Did you feel a swell of joy and pride last night? That is what it feels like to be proud to be an American. To those who see an Obama administration as "the death of America" or "the beginning of a dictatorship" as ridiculous as that is, let me ask you this; What could possibly be worse than the last 8 years?

All of you need to quit crying. NOTHING has changed yet, and it will take time for things to start moving. You should be glad that the Bush administration is coming to an end. We can finally move on to better things.

If you don't like this country move, no one is making you live here.

Originally posted by walman

From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs.
Karl Marx

Let me make it clear that there is nothing wrong with that, as long as it is voluntary. Is that not, after all, the cornerstone of a family? However, if it is forced upon men by other men, under law, then it becomes one of the greatest evils known to man. It is the voluntary aspect that makes you compassionate (charity), and the resistance to the mandatory that makes me a Conservative.

This man indicates it WILL NOT BE VOLUNTARY.