Do not worship the Cruxifix

Originally posted by Illmatic67
Just because Islam agrees with the things in Judaism does not make it an offshoot.

Islam was the first religion on earth.

What religion do you think Adam and Enoch and all the other prophets were? They were all Muslims because they submitted before Allah as their true God.

Hahahahaha!!!! That's a good one. It just took you guys something like 4000 years to put it together right!!!
Thanks for the laugh. My sides are splitting.

Dude, you really have no idea. You swallow as badly as any Christian fundamentalist and believe that you are the only one that is right. Meanwhile you miss through ignorance all of the scripture, literature, history, archeaology and common sense that points to you following a fad.
Anti-Islamic? No more than I'm anti any politically founded religion. And I have to admit that it's a pretty rich accusation coming from one who has a blind hatred based on ignorance of all other religins other than his own. I guess that would make you a hypocrite as well as an extremist.

Not Judaic in it's origins? That's another rib tickling howler. At least old Mohammed had the good fortune to be able to found his faith millenia after the Jews had created theirs!! He was able to learn from their mistakes and iron out a few inconsistencies to unite the tribes, but he still had to rely on Jews to supply him with the basis for the Koran.

Wake up my little fanatical friend. You aren't following God. You're following a religion. Created by man. Created for man. And created to control man.

Oh by the way. You're still describing a symbol. If it wasn't a symbol what is it's point? A place of worship you say? Nope. Mecca is the place of worship - not the black stone.



[Edited on 28-3-2004 by Leveller]

Originally posted by Leveller
Hahahahaha!!!! That's a good one. It just took you guys something like 4000 years to put it together right!!!
Thanks for the laugh. My sides are splitting.

Dude, you really have no idea. You swallow as badly as any Christian fundamentalist and believe that you are the only one that is right. Meanwhile you miss through ignorance all of the scripture, literature, history, archeaology and common sense that points to you following a fad.
Anti-Islamic? No more than I'm anti any politically founded religion. And I have to admit that it's a pretty rich accusation coming from one who has a blind hatred based on ignorance of all other religins other than his own. I guess that would make you a hypocrite as well as an extremist.

Not Judaic in it's origins? That's another rib tickling howler. At least old Mohammed had the good fortune to be able to found his faith millenia after the Jews had created theirs!! He was able to learn from their mistakes and iron out a few inconsistencies to unite the tribes, but he still had to rely on Jews to supply him with the basis for the Koran.

Wake up my little fanatical friend. You aren't following God. You're following a religion. Created by man. Created for man. And created to control man.

Oh by the way. You're still describing a symbol. If it wasn't a symbol what is it's point? A place of worship you say? Nope. Mecca is the place of worship - not the black stone.

[Edited on 28-3-2004 by Leveller]

It's funny you only quote the bottom half of my statement rather than the whole thing. Maybe it's because you realized how wrong and stupid you looked trying to say Mecca is a symbol.

I've come across a person just like you with your mentality. The anti-every religion ever founded mentality. He's Muslim now.

I don't know where you come off trying to call me an extemist or fundamentalist. Islam says Jews, Muslims, and Christians have their reward with God so how am I saying Islam is the only right religion?

And what is your point of the black stone being a symbol? Do you see Muslims bowing down before it? It's not a symbol of worship as some Christians use the crucifix.

And you said earlier that any Christian who prays to the crucifix is not a true Christian. Well the same thing goes for Islam and Muslims. Your the hypocrite not me.

At least old Mohammed had the good fortune to be able to found his faith millenia after the Jews had created theirs!! He was able to learn from their mistakes and iron out a few inconsistencies to unite the tribes, but he still had to rely on Jews to supply him with the basis for the Koran.

I've heard this argument so many times I've lost count. You want to talk about history then let's talk about the Battle of Trenches and how the Jews betrayed Muhammad and left him to be surrounded by a total army.

The Qur'an from the Jews? Please.

And your little angel Gabriel argument is the saddest thing yet.

Do Muslims have prayers specificially for the angel Gabriel as I've seen Christian prayers and hymns dedicated to Michael for his protection?

Do Muslims say in the name of Gabriel or Allah?

How many angels have been sent by God to give his Word?

Gabriel gave glad tidings to Mary that she would conceive, but do Christians worship Gabriel or Jesus?

Muslims don't worship the Messenger, get it right.

Isn�t that rock the place Muhammad supposedly ascended to heaven?

Originally posted by Illmatic67


It's funny you only quote the bottom half of my statement rather than the whole thing. Maybe it's because you realized how wrong and stupid you looked trying to say Mecca is a symbol.

Or maybe I only quoted the bottom half because I couln't be bothered with the rest of the dross that you posted. But anyway, what do you think a place of worship actually is? Why does it have to be somewhere different to the norm? Why does it have to be specifically set aside? IT'S SYMBOLIC!!!!! Get that through your brainwashed skull. If it wasn't symbolic of the religion you wouldn't need it would you!!!!??

I've come across a person just like you with your mentality. The anti-every religion ever founded mentality. He's Muslim now.

No worries there pal. I'm intelligent enough to know what religion actually is. I don't need a religion to help me to worship the one God.

I don't know where you come off trying to call me an extemist or fundamentalist. Islam says Jews, Muslims, and Christians have their reward with God so how am I saying Islam is the only right religion?

Errr...duh? Hello? All you ever do is try to pick holes in Christianity and Judaism. Hell, you've even taken my Isis/Mary connection and tried to use it for your own devious agenda. Hello pot. This is kettle.

And what is your point of the black stone being a symbol? Do you see Muslims bowing down before it? It's not a symbol of worship as some Christians use the crucifix.

Nope. The Muslims don't bow down before it. They walk around it. Far more taxing but still a physical action around a symbolic object.

And you said earlier that any Christian who prays to the crucifix is not a true Christian. Well the same thing goes for Islam and Muslims. Your the hypocrite not me.

Nope. Never said that. Who am I to judge who a true Christian is? All I've stated is that it is rooted in paganism. Doesn't make 'em any less of a Christian though. That's maybe your words you're trying to put to mine there.


I've heard this argument so many times I've lost count. You want to talk about history then let's talk about the Battle of Trenches and how the Jews betrayed Muhammad and left him to be surrounded by a total army.

There we go with the anti-Judaism thing again. Personally, I couldn't care who betrayed who back then. The fact is, the religions have betrayed us all since and the fanatics like you have been throwing fuel on the fire. As for your "let's talk history"? Let's not. Your view will only ever be one sided and all I will get back will be the official doctrine that you've been force fed.

The Qur'an from the Jews? Please.

Well duh. It's got all the characters....need I say more. It's like me writing a new book, inserting characters like Frodo Baggins and Gandalf and claiming it all as my own idea and then turning areound and telling everyone that Tolkien was a wanker.

And your little angel Gabriel argument is the saddest thing yet.

You didn't answer it in the context that it was put though, did you?


Do Muslims say in the name of Gabriel or Allah?

Do Christians?

How many angels have been sent by God to give his Word?

Who knows? The way I see it, if they came down after the three religions were founded he coulda sent a dozen. Chances are though, they wouldn't have been listened to. Of course we could refer to the religious books but each only has the angels coming down and telling them that their religion is the coolest. You guys are too busy fighting it out over who is best to take any notice of angels.


I might have missed one or two things that you wrote. But believe me - it was done purposefully. I simply couldn't be bothered to answer them.

Here is why the Cross is important.

It was the death of Jesus Christ that transformed the Cross from a symbol of shame into a symbol of triumph.

You can be sure that no one before the death of Jesus was putting crosses on the walls in their houses. It was a shameful death to be crucified. The Cross was a terrible symbol. There were 30,000 Jews crucified around the time of Jesus and we can only name one of them � Jesus of Nazareth.

For Christians �The Cross� is the only thing that can be boasted about without sin.

The Apostle Paul wrote the following: �God forbid that I should boast about anything except the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ.� Gal. 6:14a

There is a lot being said in that one sentence.

Paul is not talking about a wooden Cross with some blood on it. Paul says �The Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ.� It is the person on the Cross that is the power and the Cross is a symbol his glory. The Cross is a horrible image until Jesus is crucified � after the crucifixion the Cross is transformed from a symbol of shame into a symbol of triumph.

The Cross has three main purposes.

The Cross amplifies God�s love. �Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.� John 4:10

Purpose 1. Jesus died so we could live through him. �In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.� John 4:9

Purpose 2. Jesus died so we could live for him. �and he died for all, that they that live should no longer live unto themselves, but unto him who for their sakes died and rose again.� 2 Cor. 5:15

Purpose 3. Jesus died so we could live with him. �who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.� 1 Thess. 5:10

The power of the Cross. Every Christian inherits three enemies, but through the Cross Christians have victory over all three enemies.

Enemy #1 � The Flesh: �And they that are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with the passions and the lusts thereof.� Gal. 5:24

Enemy #2 � The World: �But far be it from me to glory, save in the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world hath been crucified unto me, and I unto the world.� Gal. 6:14

Enemy #3 � The Devil: �Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.� John 12:31

There is an old Christian saying: The Cross represents the worst that man can do to God and the best that God can do for man.


[Edited on 28-3-2004 by zerotime]

Or maybe I only quoted the bottom half because I couln't be bothered with the rest of the dross that you posted. But anyway, what do you think a place of worship actually is? Why does it have to be somewhere different to the norm? Why does it have to be specifically set aside? IT'S SYMBOLIC!!!!! Get that through your brainwashed skull. If it wasn't symbolic of the religion you wouldn't need it would you!!!!??

No, the mosque isn't the only place where Muslims worship. Some Muslims don't even go to the mosque, they pray from their homes and there is no symbolism there.

Errr...duh? Hello? All you ever do is try to pick holes in Christianity and Judaism. Hell, you've even taken my Isis/Mary connection and tried to use it for your own devious agenda. Hello pot. This is kettle.

Ohhh #, exuse me, can I have your autograph? I didn't know it was YOUR Isis/Mary connection as if YOU were the first one to come up with the idea. And when did I try to take "your" connection and run with it. Show me where.

Nope. The Muslims don't bow down before it. They walk around it. Far more taxing but still a physical action around a symbolic object.

But Muslims don't worship it. Case closed.

Nope. Never said that. Who am I to judge who a true Christian is? All I've stated is that it is rooted in paganism. Doesn't make 'em any less of a Christian though. That's maybe your words you're trying to put to mine there.

No, I'm pretty sure it was you who said it. I will find it.

There we go with the anti-Judaism thing again. Personally, I couldn't care who betrayed who back then. The fact is, the religions have betrayed us all since and the fanatics like you have been throwing fuel on the fire. As for your "let's talk history"? Let's not. Your view will only ever be one sided and all I will get back will be the official doctrine that you've been force fed.

Man...shut up. How am I being anti-Judaism when I'm stating a historical fact? It really happened. Is it my fault why it happened? No. I'm just stating the fact so don't come at me with that ant-semitic bull#. As if your views are non-biased. Get the hell outta here.

Well duh. It's got all the characters....need I say more. It's like me writing a new book, inserting characters like Frodo Baggins and Gandalf and claiming it all as my own idea and then turning areound and telling everyone that Tolkien was a wanker.

Well duh, another stupid comment. The Qur'an didn't steal anything from the OT. The Qur'an only confirms what is written in the OT and it gives it'd proper due. New characters? Have you even read the Qur'an?

You didn't answer it in the context that it was put though, did you?

Because there was no context. It was regurgitation from your mouth.

Do Muslims say in the name of Gabriel or Allah?

Do Christians?

Yes. I've seen the Christian prayers and hymns dedicated to the archangel Michael for their protection from evil. So the answer is...YES.

I might have missed one or two things that you wrote. But believe me - it was done purposefully. I simply couldn't be bothered to answer them.

Likewise.

Gotta love you guys,

Jesus didn't die for our sin's, if anything he put us more in debt.

Fox

Originally posted by Colonel
I was reading the Bible and I noticed that the children of Israel were plagued many times over for what particularly? Worshipping idols and images. Happens constantly throughout the Book.

Then, I came across this in Jeremiah which is a book of prophecy:

Jeremiah 10

1 Hear what the LORD says to you, O house of Israel. 2 This is what the LORD says:

"Do not learn the ways of the nations
or be terrified by signs in the sky,
though the nations are terrified by them.
3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4 They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.
5 Like a scarecrow in a melon patch,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good."

biblegateway.com...

To me, he is clearly speaking of the cross with Jesus on it, which is prophesy b/c Jesus hadn't come into the world yet. Why do people continue to disobey God's word?

To me, this is clearly not about the crucifix. It is clearly about other idols, most similar to statues. The cross wasnt adorned with silver and gold. It says something about how they cannot walk(the idols).. a crucifix would never be expected to walk.

Like a scarecrow in a melon patch,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.


He is attempting to show the lifeless and spiritless nature of these idols being worshiped at the time of his sermon. The Israelites are worshiping false Gods in the form of Idolatry. They cannot compare to the one and only true and living God.

Originally posted by kinglizard
Like a scarecrow in a melon patch,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.


He is attempting to show the lifeless and spiritless nature of these idols being worshiped at the time of his sermon.

And the one you are wearing around yuor neck or the one you bow to at church.

Originally posted by Colonel

Originally posted by kinglizard
Like a scarecrow in a melon patch,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.


He is attempting to show the lifeless and spiritless nature of these idols being worshiped at the time of his sermon.

And the one you are wearing around yuor neck or the one you bow to at church.

I sorry Colonel, I don�t agree with your interpretation of the text. The cross is not worshiped as it�s own and separate God. It�s just a symbol of faith.

Colonel,

The disciples of Jesus tell you to carry the cross. You sin against God if you don't.


Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

Luke 9:23
Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

Luke 14:27
And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

Galatians 6:12
Those who want to make a good impression outwardly are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ.



Obviously I don�t think that it means to carry a cross rather to be responsible for our sin. I�m posting this to show you how you misinterpreted the text of the bible. We need to look for the underling meaning.


[Edited on 29-3-2004 by kinglizard]

illmatic, christians do [not] pray [in the name] of angels.



we pray to st michael as [gods] appointed Angel to fight angels oh hell which revelations speaks of.


we do not pray [in] michaels name, and attribute to him being God.



the bottem line is that we are judging people on how we think god works.



has it ever entered your mind, why god created so many angels?



to appoint?



peace

One of the funniest things that I have heard on the cross as a symbol goes something to the effect of:

"What are are you 'faithful' doing running about with that bloody symbol on your necks? Do you really think that the first thing Jesus wants to see on his return is the thing he was murdered on?"

are you implying that jesus holds grudges?

he glorifies what the cross means.


its our salvation.



peace

Originally posted by Illmatic67

Nope. The Muslims don't bow down before it. They walk around it. Far more taxing but still a physical action around a symbolic object.

But Muslims don't worship it. Case closed.

If you could read, which dude, I'm seriously beginning to have my doubts about, you would see that time and time again I have stated that the Black Stone is a symbol. Read it again symbol. Caps lock just for you - SYMBOL.
The whole argument is not about worship - it is about SYMBOLISM.

The Black Stone is a symbol. The Black Stone is a symbol. The Black Stone is a symbol. The Black Stone is a symbol.
The Black Stone is a symbol. The Black Stone is a symbol. The Black Stone is a symbol. The Black Stone is a symbol.
The Black Stone is a symbol. The Black Stone is a symbol.
The Black Stone is a symbol. The Black Stone is a symbol.
The Black Stone is a symbol. The Black Stone is a symbol. The Black Stone is a symbol. The Black Stone is a symbol.

Got it?
I haven't stated that it is worshipped.
Got it?



I have to laugh at you religious fanatics. The one thing that always gets me is that you claim your religion to be perfect and then have to spend hours spouting the official line in order to defend it.
It's blatantly obvious to those of us who have actually managed to avoid the brainwashing, that if it was that perfect?.......

It wouldn't need defending.


Now excuse me whilst I go slaughter a couple of goats, read 50 pages of mumbo jumbo out loud from a book of mythology and lie on my back with my legs in the air in a position of worship whilst asking for forgiveness from my God for laughing at you so hard.

Originally posted by kinglizard
Colonel,

The disciples of Jesus tell you to carry the cross. You sin against God if you don't.


Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

Luke 9:23
Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

Luke 14:27
And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

Galatians 6:12
Those who want to make a good impression outwardly are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ.



Obviously I don�t think that it means to carry a cross rather to be responsible for our sin. I�m posting this to show you how you misinterpreted the text of the bible. We need to look for the underling meaning.


[Edited on 29-3-2004 by kinglizard]

We will have to agree to disagree. I will stick by His tenets and have no image or symbol or idol that I glorify and you can wear and worship a symbol as a "representation"of the Lord.

look at you man. your using loud rude, [cocky] tones to disprove something.


the reader already knows you by your sincerity, or lack of it.



how can anyone take you seriously?


when your laughing at [you religious fanatics] as if you cant wait till we are put to death.




what, the kingdom is filled with you. if your like how you are on here, all the time, then thats a scary thought.


if i changed my religion to pop culture would you care, or how about sports?



peace

Originally posted by Truth

what, the kingdom is filled with you. if your like how you are on here, all the time, then thats a scary thought.
if i changed my religion to pop culture would you care, or how about sports?

Your religion already is a pop culture. It was made to appeal to the masses just the same.

If the kingdom was filled with me, you wouldn't have any problem either dude. You'd have a world full of people worshipping their God, not having to look over their shoulder for fear of being killed for their beliefs and probably a lot happier knowing that they were right.

You see, I don't have to defend my faith. You can't pick holes in it, because there are none to pick - it isn't based on politics or money, greed or self service.

You guys choose to ignore the Truth with your religions. You take dogma and spin it to an interpretation of God that only suits those you choose to allow believe. If you're a Christian, you have to believe in this type of God, if you're Muslim another, a Jew yet another.

You've created tribal gods.

Originally posted by Colonel
We will have to agree to disagree. I will stick by His tenets and have no image or symbol or idol that I glorify and you can wear and worship a symbol as a "representation"of the Lord.

Colonel,

Yeah it looks like we interpret the Bible in different ways. Even though we disagree I still consider your opinions in the highest regard. You�re obviously a well thought-out and intelligent person, that considers the Bible the word of God, and that�s good enough for me. I appreciate this type of debate because I end up learning more about the Bible and the different views of Gods people, for that, I Thank You.

God Bless,

Kinglizard