Do not worship the Cruxifix

Find a good drama At the movies it will have a plot that is close. How do you know the bible wasnt entertainment?

Originally posted by SpittinCobra
Find a good drama At the movies it will have a plot that is close. How do you know the bible wasnt entertainment?

3

Well the bible was written long before the movie. The bible and its stories speak to the human condition. Even if you don�t believe in God and think the bible is entertainment it�s still a book that should be read and studied. The book gives you many examples on how you can live your life and remain �healthy� in an �unhealthy� world. It really is the �greatest story ever told� because it speaks of mans weaknesses, pride, desires, lust and these things are timeless because it�s apart of being human.

I sure you could see the truth in Cain and Abel�s story. If you applied it to your life you would be better off.

Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by Illmatic67

Nope. The Muslims don't bow down before it. They walk around it. Far more taxing but still a physical action around a symbolic object.

But Muslims don't worship it. Case closed.

If you could read, which dude, I'm seriously beginning to have my doubts about, you would see that time and time again I have stated that the Black Stone is a symbol. Read it again symbol. Caps lock just for you - SYMBOL.
The whole argument is not about worship - it is about SYMBOLISM.

The Black Stone is a symbol. The Black Stone is a symbol. The Black Stone is a symbol. The Black Stone is a symbol.
The Black Stone is a symbol. The Black Stone is a symbol. The Black Stone is a symbol. The Black Stone is a symbol.
The Black Stone is a symbol. The Black Stone is a symbol.
The Black Stone is a symbol. The Black Stone is a symbol.
The Black Stone is a symbol. The Black Stone is a symbol. The Black Stone is a symbol. The Black Stone is a symbol.

Got it?
I haven't stated that it is worshipped.
Got it?



I have to laugh at you religious fanatics. The one thing that always gets me is that you claim your religion to be perfect and then have to spend hours spouting the official line in order to defend it.
It's blatantly obvious to those of us who have actually managed to avoid the brainwashing, that if it was that perfect?.......

It wouldn't need defending.


Now excuse me whilst I go slaughter a couple of goats, read 50 pages of mumbo jumbo out loud from a book of mythology and lie on my back with my legs in the air in a position of worship whilst asking for forgiveness from my God for laughing at you so hard.

Asalaam Alykum Leveller,

My friend just went on his last Hajj, and he tolled me that you dont have to circle the stone, its a choice made by the individual and yes it is a form of a symbol, but in no way does it symbolise Islam or Muslim let along Allah!
I cant really answer to much about it, but thats all i know. I also know that there are no symbols in to represt Islam! Dont even bother with the Moon and star, its a weak argument

To the subject at hand.
I was a Practasing Catholic and i did find something wrong with Crosses and my mother couldnt even explain it. But i believe that if they are True followers of Christ, then they would pray how he did.
I dont think he had a picture infront of him, and from what i know he used to put his face on the ground and BOW to the One True God!

Also let me add that in the Passion of the Christ movie my friend who speaks Arabic could understand some things that jesus(pbuh) was saying when talking in Aramaic, he also said that when he refured to God it sounded like he was saying Alaha.
Sounds abit like Allah to me, but i could be wrong.

Salaam

Guerilla

Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by Colonel
It always nice how people just twist the meaning of the Bible, twist the sayings of God, and change the image of God to suit their ideas. Ex. "God is all love."

Who turned God into a hippie cliche????

Maybe you should look at who turned God into a vengeful, wrathful and jealous God?
The meaning of the Bible has already been twisted.

I'd say He started out as your hippy cliche and was transformed into the scriptural monster that you see today.

Umm. No, In the Bible, God was angry and vengeful---he even described himself so and I don't see a problem with it. There is nothing twisted about it. As it was written, the beginning of wisdom is the fear of God.

Its everyone that has a problem. They want a God who's soft, plushy, and mushy so when they sin they can say,'Ah, God will fogive me. It'll be alright. I can do it again too. He won't mind."

You might as well call him the Rude Awakening then.

Originally posted by Colonel
There is nothing twisted about it. As it was written, the beginning of wisdom is the fear of God.

Or you could look at it another way.
The beginning of control and forcing people to worship a tribal god is by making them fearful.

I don't fear God - I don't believe that I was created to fear Him. It's very hard to truly love something that you fear.

Originally posted by Leveller
Or you could look at it another way.
The beginning of control and forcing people to worship a tribal god is by making them fearful.

I don't fear God - I don't believe that I was created to fear Him. It's very hard to truly love something that you fear.

Ok, you tell him that. You tell God, who created the entire universe, who created Good and Evil, who could destroy you and make you forgotten with a thought, that he is a tribal god. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid and do that.

And this is crap: "It's very hard to truly love something that you fear."

You love for father don't you? (I am assuming you do). But, you were scared when he came to discipline you. So, your last comment is just bogus.

yes, but the reason that you are afraid of your father is because he is trying to make you out to be the person that he wants you to be(best case scenario) or he is just trying to get you to do what he wants you to do(common place scenario). just like our government may have some of our well being in mind, but for the most part they just want us to exist as they see fit under their authority, just like anyfather or mother would do.(some parents may not care at all one way or the other and make no attempt to govern and or mold or bring up)
and you're relationship with your father is at best at times when you are not afraid. or even when grow older and are no longer afraid the relationship is better. and even after they have departed from this world, the relationship does not end.


i don't think we need to be afraid of god. if he is a good god and i believe that he is. but perhaps who or what created us is not god but just our creator, but ofcourse the real god put all this in to play and does every second of every day.

i wonder if some people will ever realize that in true love there is no place for fear


NO PLace for fear in true love



[Edited on 3/30/2004 by panchovilla]

[Edited on 3/30/2004 by panchovilla]

Colonel - Please tone down your use of language. "Crap" wasn't necessary to express your point and adds nothing to your argument.

panchovilla: What do you think the Bible is for? In it, God has been angry, pissed, hated, killed nations, and cursed those that he loved. So where did we get this "God is all love thing."

from the Holy Spirit giving me the gift of discernment.

from realizing that not all governing bodies of countries or parents or people always have the best interest of there subservients as a high priority.

all bibles where written by governments. originally there was much more to them. but they were altered to fit the needs of the ruling bodies. and fear of an eternal damnation is a most powerful tool.

i don't need a book to find god nor is their any precurssor to reading x amount of chapters before the Holy Spirit is willing to bestow gifts upon you.


i get the all loving thing from the bible. it says god is a god of love. his love is perfect.

and i believe that it is. but there are other verses that lend to the opposite. and here discernment is valuable.

God is to be feared.

Exodus 20:20
Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning."

Deuteronomy 6:24
The LORD commanded us to obey all these decrees and to fear the LORD our God, so that we might always prosper and be kept alive, as is the case today.

Deuteronomy 31:12
Assemble the people-men, women and children, and the aliens living in your towns-so they can listen and learn to fear the LORD your God and follow carefully all the words of this law.

Deuteronomy 31:13
Their children, who do not know this law, must hear it and learn to fear the LORD your God as long as you live in the land you are crossing the Jordan to possess."

Originally posted by Truth


illmatic, christians do [not] pray [in the name] of angels.



we pray to st michael as [gods] appointed Angel to fight angels oh hell which revelations speaks of.


we do not pray [in] michaels name, and attribute to him being God.



the bottem line is that we are judging people on how we think god works.



has it ever entered your mind, why god created so many angels?



to appoint?



peace

You pray to St. Michael?

Blasphemy.

Yeah, I�m not sure how I feel about praying to a saint that was only ordained by man; same thing with going to confessional in the Catholic Religion. I spent most of my educational career in a Catholic parochial school, taught by priests and nuns wearing a uniform and everything. We had to confess our sins to the priest on a weekly basis. The priest would then give us our penitence or punishment. Now that I�m a bit older my views have changed, and I feel I should only confess and pray to the lord himself.

'blasphemy'


only to your human mind.


it even says in scripture


' your thoughts are not my thoughts, neither are your ways my ways'




are you telling me that st michael was not appointed [by] god to fight satanic spirits?



if you even knew the st michael prayer you would understand, we are asking him to fight evil demons roaming earth through god.



you dont know gods mind.


peace

so now that you are older have your views not changed enough to see that god is bigger than the bible? and as far as just being ordained by man.

the bible has no greater credentials! the bible is an accompilation of certain literature of the time and earlier that was chosen by MEN/MAN do be the word of god.
i most certainly believe that some of the greatest truthes taught by Jesus were purposely witheld from these GOVERNING men's version of the word of god because they were liberating and told of god's real true and eternal love.

does not the bible also say that satan will do everything in his power to block the truth from reaching the people.

.......flesh and blood, but pricipalities in high places........

[Edited on 3/31/2004 by panchovilla]

Originally posted by Colonel
panchovilla: What do you think the Bible is for? In it, God has been angry, pissed, hated, killed nations, and cursed those that he loved. So where did we get this "God is all love thing."

The literal meaning in the Old Testament is for the Jews.
It contains a Jewish god for a Jewish people. Everyone but the Israelites are excluded from the love of their god. You have to worship in a certain way, think in a certain way, act in a certain way, live your life in a certain way - the Jewish way!!!!

The "God is all love thing" comes from looking at the symbolism New Testament and then looking at yourself.

By the way. Don't confuse "respect" with "fear".

Originally posted by Leveller
The "God is all love thing" comes from looking at the symbolism New Testament and then looking at yourself.

By the way. Don't confuse "respect" with "fear".

I have no idea what you're talking about here could you please expound on this?

Originally posted by Colonel
I have no idea what you're talking about here could you please expound on this?

Sorry, I typoed. Shoud have read "symbolism in the New Testament".

I believe that the Old Testament and the New Testament have to be looked at in entirely different lights.

The OT was written for the Jewish people. The NT was written for a much broader range but it also had to incorporate some Jewish faith as it was a Jewish version of the Osiris/Dionysus story and because some of the target audience were Jews who couldn't swallow it whole without at least some promise of political gain - ie: a messiah who would rid them of the Romans, it had to contain a basis in the OT.

Take out the politics from the NT though, and you are left with almost an exact replica of the Osiris/Dionysus story - not just the miracles or the crucifixion, but the use of numbers, and the way Jesus fulfills prophecies - it's all based on an older teaching. Study his story and you will see that it is a teaching based on symbols, allegory and learning about oneself. The flavour and the essence is the same. The NT contains a lot of these symbols.

Jesus' teachings themselves, resemble those taught by the Greek philosophers (Dionysus followers) who themselves learnt the story from the Egyptians (Osiris).
It's not a story of literal resurrection. It's a story how everyone can become "A Son of God" if they follow the teachings - everyone contains a part of the Divine which they can reunite with the One. In Osiris/Dionysus, the resurrection is the resurrection of the spirit, not the ressurrection of bodily flesh.

When Jesus says "Know thyself" he is stating the principal doctrine of Osiris/Dionysus. The followers of this belief believed that by "knowing" themselves, they could achieve unity with their god.

The problem is though, once you place politics and history in a story, people automatically started taking it as a literal fact, rather than a symbolic story. It was rather a Catch22 situation - they couldn't sell it without embellishing it, but once they had embellished it, it was open to mis-interpretation.

When you study the story of Osiris/Dionysus, you can see that it is not about a wrathful or angry God. By studying the story of the New Testament and through the symbols there, understanding that it is not the story of the Jewish god but of Osiris/Dionysus you will understand that the tribal god in the Old Testament was written to be feared, but he wasn't the same god as that which is in the New Testament. They might call him Jehovah now and again to keep their Jewish followers happy, but in reality he is the God of everyone (Osiris/Dionysus was universal) - not just a tribe.

God of the Old Testament and the New Testament are the same. The �God of Abraham� is a common quote in both testaments. They refer to the same God.

Old Testament

Genesis 17:9
Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come.

Genesis 24:12
Then he prayed, "O LORD , God of my master Abraham, give me success today, and show kindness to my master Abraham.

Genesis 24:27
saying, "Praise be to the LORD , the God of my master Abraham, who has not abandoned his kindness and faithfulness to my master. As for me, the LORD has led me on the journey to the house of my master's relatives."

New Testament

Matthew 22:32
'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'[ 22:32 Exodus 3:6] ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Mark 12:26
Now about the dead rising�have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'[ 12:26 Exodus 3:6]

Acts 3:13
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go.

Originally posted by Leveller


When Jesus says "Know thyself" he is stating the principal doctrine of Osiris/Dionysus. The followers of this belief believed that by "knowing" themselves, they could achieve unity with their god.

can you tell me where Jesus said this in the bible please?