Do not worship the Cruxifix

Originally posted by kinglizard
Main Entry: idolatry
Pronunciation: -trE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -tries
1: the worship of a physical object as a god


So it�s deeper than the worship of an object, it is the worship and allegiance to another god.


Genesis 31

19 When Laban had gone to shear his sheep, Rachel stole her father's household gods.

Amazing how everyone will quote other scriptures to continue with their practice of building an idol to God and not address Jeremiah 10.

Idolatry Forbidden

Deuteronomy 4:15-20

15 You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, 18 or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. 19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars-all the heavenly array-do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. 20 But as for you, the LORD took you and brought you out of the iron-smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be the people of his inheritance, as you now are.

Deuteronomy 4:23

Be careful not to forget the covenant of the LORD your God that he made with you; do not make for yourselves an idol in the form of anything the LORD your God has forbidden.

bible.gospelcom.net...

God was not excusing the other nations for their idol worship. He was simply saying that while judgment might be delayed for those other nations, it would be swift and complete for Israel because Israel knew gods law. We must remember that Idol worship was not just keeping statues around the house � harmless lumps of clay, wood, or iron. It was the commitment to the other evil qualities, beliefs, and principles the idol represented.

I made a thread using that same quote from Jeremiah a long time ago in the old ATS forum.

The verse refers to the celebration of Christmas and Christmas trees.

For the customs of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4 They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.

Christmas tree.

Jeremiah 10

God and Idols

1 Hear what the LORD says to you, O house of Israel. 2 This is what the LORD says:

"Do not learn the ways of the nations
or be terrified by signs in the sky,
though the nations are terrified by them.
3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4 They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.
5 Like a scarecrow in a melon patch,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good."

What does this mean?

The purpose of Jeremiahs text was to urge God�s people to turn from their sins and back to God, It was written to Judah and it�s capital city Jerusalem around 627-586 B.C.

Most people would like to know the future. Decisions would be easier, certain failures avoided, and some successes assured. The people of Judah wanted to know the future too, and they tried to find them through reading the signs in the sky. Jeremiah�s response applies today: God made the earth and the heavens, including the stars that people consult and worship (10:12). No one will discover the future in made-up charts of God�s stars. But God, who promises to guide you, knows your future. Don�t trust the stars; trust the one who made the stars.


Jeremiah 10:3 says �For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.� The customs of the people is referring to idol worship common in the day, not Jesus on the cross, carving a crucifix was not a common custom. Those who put their trust in a chunk of wood, even though it is carved well and colored beautifully, are foolish. No matter how well made or how beautiful idols are, they can never have the power and life of the true and living God.


[Edited on 27-3-2004 by kinglizard]

Colonel is right when he says that icons should not be worshipped. However, I see no problem with having a crucifix or other icon as symbolic - and only symbolic - of what Christ went through. This is not worshipping the crucifix as God, merely giving the Christian something to concentrate upon when visualising Christ during prayers.

However, the Second council of Nicaea specifically allows icons of Christ to be venerated. This is not the same as worshipping the icon, but merely implies a profound respect or reverence for it, because of its link to Jesus himself.


Worship:
The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.
Ardent devotion; adoration.

Veneration
Profound respect or reverence

Originally posted by Illmatic67
I made a thread using that same quote from Jeremiah a long time ago in the old ATS forum.

The verse refers to the celebration of Christmas and Christmas trees.

For the customs of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4 They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.

Christmas tree.

I was thinking the same thing! I had always been told that part of the bible was condemning pagan practices of cutting down the tree and decorating it.

I think you are perfectly right worshiping the cross would be wrong if it were used as an idol/ good luck charm/ whatever it wasnt the physical cross that saved us it was the guy slain on it he deserves the worship.

But people have been urgeing for something physical to worship right from the begining of time. Its when traditions and old symbolisms enter the church when it starts to be perverted.
For example God, as Mother and son has been a picture painted of many Gods through time starting from the babylonians (i think). This has now been implemented into the christian faith by the worship of mary the mother of jesus.

The icons used in worship aren't exclusive to Christianity. Remember the Jewish menorah?
There is archealogical evidence that the early Hebews revered the bull and used it as the symbol of their God. The animal was masculine and the curvature of it's horns femenine and this pointed to God being of both sexes.
When Moses came along and went up the mountain, you can still find the Jews making the bulls. Exodus states that whilst he was receiving the 10 Commandments, his brother Aaron was at the bottom of the mountain handing the effigies out like crazy. Moses came down, got real mad, and had thousands of people slaughtered - yet another example of compassion through worship. It always strikes me as odd that the bull was forbidden but the menorah was allowed. Basically this would not indicate a change in doctrine, rather a schism in early Judaism and one side literally saying "my symbol is better than yours"

The interesting thing to me, is where these symbols came from. There is no doubt that the menorah and the cross both have thier roots in pagan belief. The menorah comes from an early Babylonian symbol which was a tree with seven branches. Each branch was a representation of a skill needed to reach closer to their gods. For example - love, knowledge, temperance, etc. The branch right at the top was symbolic of the worshipper being at one with his god.
It is far easier to discover the origins of the cross. It had a special place within the worship of Osiris/Dionysis. The four ends of the cross represented the four spirits of Earth, Wind, Fire and Water. There are many acient pieces of pottery which show Dionysis crucified on this cross.

As for the worship of the symbol? I don't see anywhere in either Christian or Jewish faith where the symbol itself is worshipped. Rather it is the meaning behind the symbol which is revered - because of this, I can see no contradiction where this subject is concerned.

Faith isn't going to church or reading the Bible. It's believing with every part of your body and soul that when the time comes to transition into the afterlife that God will be there with open arms to accept you into the house of the Lord. That is true faith, believing that there is an afterlife.

God is everywhere, you don't need a church or a bible to pray to him. He is always listening.



That's the part of me that believes in God. The skeptic in me believes we are a mathematical probably in the great ecosystem we call the Universe.

Originally posted by Leveller


The icons used in worship aren't exclusive to Christianity. Remember the Jewish menorah?
There is archealogical evidence that the early Hebews revered the bull and used it as the symbol of their God. The animal was masculine and the curvature of it's horns femenine and this pointed to God being of both sexes.
When Moses came along and went up the mountain, you can still find the Jews making the bulls. Exodus states that whilst he was receiving the 10 Commandments, his brother Aaron was at the bottom of the mountain handing the effigies out like crazy. Moses came down, got real mad, and had thousands of people slaughtered - yet another example of compassion through worship. It always strikes me as odd that the bull was forbidden but the menorah was allowed. Basically this would not indicate a change in doctrine, rather a schism in early Judaism and one side literally saying "my symbol is better than yours"

The interesting thing to me, is where these symbols came from. There is no doubt that the menorah and the cross both have thier roots in pagan belief. The menorah comes from an early Babylonian symbol which was a tree with seven branches. Each branch was a representation of a skill needed to reach closer to their gods. For example - love, knowledge, temperance, etc. The branch right at the top was symbolic of the worshipper being at one with his god.
It is far easier to discover the origins of the cross. It had a special place within the worship of Osiris/Dionysis. The four ends of the cross represented the four spirits of Earth, Wind, Fire and Water. There are many acient pieces of pottery which show Dionysis crucified on this cross.

As for the worship of the symbol? I don't see anywhere in either Christian or Jewish faith where the symbol itself is worshipped. Rather it is the meaning behind the symbol which is revered - because of this, I can see no contradiction where this subject is concerned.

This is because Judaism was never a true monothestic religion.

They, early Hebrews, worshipped Yahweh but they agreed that there were other gods.

EDIT: There's a name for this type of practice but I can't think of it now.

[Edited on 3-27-2004 by Illmatic67]

Just a side note.

I�m sure you have heard God referred to as Yahweh. This is also accurate, Yahweh is derived from the Hebrew word for �I Am�.

Exodus 3:13-14

Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?" God said to Moses, "I am who I am . [2] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

It is true that God refers to himself an �I am� many times in the bible. The Egyptians had many gods by many different names. Moses wanted to know God�s name so the Hebrew people would know who sent him to them. God called himself �I Am�, a name describing his eternal power and unchangeable character. Hebrews 13:8 says god is the same �yesterday and today and forever� because God�s nature is stable and trustworthy.

Originally posted by Illmatic67
This is because Judaism was never a true monothestic religion.

True, depending on your classification of Judaism. But the Jews were probably worshipping their one god, far earlier than many give them credit for. There is evidence in Edom that the early Semites were pursuing a religion with just one deity, long before Moses led the main body of Hebrews out from Egypt. As far as I can tell, the Edomites were the people to have the first recorded single god religion. There is a chance that Egyptian Ma'at started out this way, but it was probably changed by Semite people when they deposed the Haptose kings and installed the pharohs. Unfortunately the evidence would also have been wiped away. We do know that Egypt took on a lot more gods through the years though, and it is entirely possible that they also started out with just one.

It's almost certain that early Judaic belief would have incorporated the religions where their people settled or were enslaved. When the Semite people first came to Babylon/Sumeria from the East, they were followers of the local religions - including the worship of many gods.

But the common thing amongst all ancient religions, is the use of symbols - every single one of them had at least one. Some were items of actual worship and some were representations. When you consider that most early religious writings contain nothing but symbolism, this is hardly suprising. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that different religions borrowed symbols from each other. Some were adapted to take on different meanings and some were kept as they were taken. For the latter though, each borrowed symbol was claimed as exclusive to it's new owner and any trace of it's being copied was either destroyed, denied or hidden behind falsehoods.





[Edited on 27-3-2004 by Leveller]

Originally posted by Leveller

It's almost certain that early Judaic belief would have incorporated the religions where their people settled or were enslaved. When the Semite people first came to Babylon/Sumeria from the East, they were followers of the local religions - including the worship of many gods.

This is true. The story of creation and Noah's flood were Sumerian and Babylonian stories.

Originally posted by Leveller

But the common thing amongst all ancient religions, is the use of symbols - every single one of them had at least one. Some were items of actual worship and some were representations. When you consider that most early religious writings contain nothing but symbolism, this is hardly suprising. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that different religions borrowed symbols from each other. Some were adapted to take on different meanings and some were kept as they were taken. For the latter though, each borrowed symbol was claimed as exclusive to it's new owner and any trace of it's being copied was either destroyed, denied or hidden behind falsehoods.

This is also true. The Christian symbol of the cross was first an Egyptian symbol before the Christians took it and ran with it. Now, everyone thinks of Christianity when they see the cross instead of Ancient Egypt.

Good post.



[Edited on 27-3-2004 by Leveller]

[Edited on 3-27-2004 by Illmatic67]

Believe me when I say people worship the cross. For most people, the crucifix is physical and believable, and they somehow figure that since it is a symbol of god, it must be imbued with a part of god himself, just like a church (the House of God). I've watched many, many people praying directly to the cross like it was some kind of telephone device. Alot of people have the cross with them all the time, and readily consult to it when they feel 'alone' or they may need 'help' from god, like they are carrying god in their pocket all the time... now if THAT isn't worshipping...

I don't quite get it... people are so bent on remembering the torture of Jesus that they carry around a symbol, or rather a realistic representation, of it. To me it is like carrying around a piece of my friend's car that he died in so I can always remember how he suffered for several hours before dying. Quite sadistic, if you ask me. Personally, I think that Jesus probably was more tortured by a lifetime of being surrounded by masses of ignorant people.

Really, I don't think ANY sins should be forgiven (and I don't think they really are... long story on God covering his ass to explain that train of thought). Really... if you #ing kill someone on purpose, Jesus (or Christ) is gonna say "Aw well... you asked me to forgive you, and forgive you I must."?!? So, could it be that people carry the crucifix so that just before they die they can remember to ask Jesus to forgive them for being #ty, narcisistic, self rightious, and self centered human beings?

I try not to worship anything at all, except the small amount of knowledge I possess. To me, knowledge IS God, in a sense. Worshipping a freakin trinket or idol is pretty counterproductive, if you ask me.

I've got major problems with christianity in general... I watched my grandpa fall back into alchoholism and screw up his buisiness all because he 'found god'. He and his new GF were spending about half of every day drinking wine and doing bible study... sad. An old friend of my parents threw his life away for 'god' and went to church almost every night, and saturdays and sundays, and when he wasn't doing that, he was bugging all his friends with all his 'have you accepted Jesus into your life?' crap. He lost his wife, kids, and all his real friends, and the last I saw him he was asking god for help because he wasn't happy in his new life of continuous worship.

So, yes... I think worship is bad. Worshipping an idol is even worse, and don't fool yourself into thinking you aren't worshipping it by reason of "it's a SYMBOL of God... I'm worshipping God" (or Jesus, or whatever). If you have to have some visual representation to be able to worship your god, then you'd better spend some time actually reconsidering your spirituality. I'd be willing to bet that you are just scared by what the church has instilled in you, and are just covering your ass and not really worshippping or even fully believing in what you try to represent. You shouldn't need a physical trinket to remind you of your faith, plain and simple.

[Edited on 27-3-2004 by Earthscum]

Originally posted by Earthscum
So, yes... I think worship is bad. Worshipping an idol is even worse, and don't fool yourself into thinking you aren't worshipping it by reason of "it's a SYMBOL of God... I'm worshipping God" (or Jesus, or whatever). If you have to have some visual representation to be able to worship your god, then you'd better spend some time actually reconsidering your spirituality.

Although not a conformist, I don't have a problem with symbolism. When you think long and hard about it, you will find that it's been around as long as man and his god have - probably when the first caveman looked into the fire and dwelt on his spirituality. It's an inbuilt part of the human psyche and denying it means you are denying your nature.

As I stated before. The passage in the Bible where images are forbidden was probably political more than anything. Once you allow one symbol, more spring up. And before you know it you have different sects of a religion splitting off and setting up around that symbol. More than anything, I believe the banning of images was to hold early Judaism together. By banning them, it was one less thing that they could fight over and one less thing that needed defining.

Earthscum,

When you say the pledge of allegiance to the flag are you worshiping the flag or what it represents?

You say �If you have to have some visual representation to be able to worship your god, then you'd better spend some time actually reconsidering your spirituality.� It seems you will twist the true meaning to prove your own viewpoint. Who told you that Christians need a cross to talk to God? That�s absurd. You also say �I've watched many, many people praying directly to the cross like it was some kind of telephone device�. Were they praying out loud? How is it that you know the thoughts in the mind of the devoted? Your eyes are deceiving you, you can only comment on what you see, the important thing is what you can�t see. When a Catholic prays it starts out by signing �in the name of the father, and of the son, and of the holey spirit� the cross is only a symbol we are praying to Jesus. You also said �I try not to worship anything at all, except the small amount of knowledge I possess.� If you don�t believe in anything but yourself, how is it that you know so much about the faithful?

Originally posted by kinglizard
Earthscum,

When you say the pledge of allegiance to the flag are you worshiping the flag or what it represents?

I refuse to say the pledge of allegiance. By being forced to say it in schools, people are being forced to believe in a 'one god' religion. It's equivilant to looking at yourself in the mirror every morning and telling yourself you are a good person... it's called brainwashing. Also, by standing at attention to the flag with your hand over your heart, it is definitly equatable to kneeling and praying to your cross.

You say �If you have to have some visual representation to be able to worship your god, then you'd better spend some time actually reconsidering your spirituality.� It seems you will twist the true meaning to prove your own viewpoint.

Twist WHAT true meaning? Firstly, I assume you are jumping to some conclusion that I had some deeper meaning to what I said? All I am saying is that spirituality is based within you and you shouldn't need some visual representation to cling to just to be 'spiritual'.

Who told you that Christians need a cross to talk to God? That�s absurd.

What's absurd is that you again assumed that someone told me christians need a cross to talk to god. I never said anything of the sort. I said:

Originally posted by Earthscum
For most people, the crucifix is physical and believable, and they somehow figure that since it is a symbol of god, it must be imbued with a part of god himself, just like a church (the House of God). I've watched many, many people praying directly to the cross like it was some kind of telephone device.

What I was referring to is that alot of christians don't truly connect spiritually with their god and rely on a symbol because they can see it, they can touch it... they can feel it with all their outer senses, which is a whole lot easier than worshipping something unseen, unreal, and unphysical in general. Please try actually reading stuff... I never said someone told me. I base this statement off of being in churches when I was younger, being close to many super-religious families, etc... I actually think for myself instead of relying on what others tell me... and you? From what I gather from your post, your interpretation of the bible has got to be REALLY messed up!

You also say �I've watched many, many people praying directly to the cross like it was some kind of telephone device�. Were they praying out loud? How is it that you know the thoughts in the mind of the devoted? Your eyes are deceiving you, you can only comment on what you see, the important thing is what you can�t see. When a Catholic prays it starts out by signing �in the name of the father, and of the son, and of the holey spirit� the cross is only a symbol we are praying to Jesus. You also said �I try not to worship anything at all, except the small amount of knowledge I possess.� If you don�t believe in anything but yourself, how is it that you know so much about the faithful?

First, I assume my eyes decieve me. I assume you decieve me. I assume the doctor who did surgery on my knee decieved me. I don't claim to be right. I don't only rely on my eyes for info... I know spirituality. Obviously you don't know true spirituality or you would not have questioned where my words came from, but you would, rather, know where they came from... actually, if you read the entire post I tell you where they come from.

I have asked MANY people if they could pray without the cross, and almost always the reply is something along the lines of it being a vessel to god, and claim that they need it for prayer. Also, most people that carry crosses with them find comfort in having a symbol of faith in their pocket... almost like it's bragging rights (like they are showing off their SuperBowl ring).

And since when has it been a prerequisit that I have to be faithful NOW to know the faithful? I was faithful, until I realized how much useful time it was taking from my life. Also, would you be implying that I'm not faithful? Being faithful to yourself is not the same as being faithful to a god? Basically, from your post, you appear to be one of the people I was talking about. I have been many things, and I can comment on them... I've even been ignorant myself, which definitly qalifies me to point out your ignorance. Of all the posts you could've attacked, it was mine... I assume this is because I tried to point out things that are easily seen by anyone else with a remotely open mind instead of giving links to what others have told me?

Earthscum,

You are missing the meaning of my post.

We are not worshiping the flag by saying the pledge of allegiance; likewise we are not worshiping the cross when we pray. They are merely symbols that represent something else.

I can only comment on the words that you have written. You wrote �If you have to have some visual representation to be able to worship your god, then you'd better spend some time actually reconsidering your spirituality.� You imply that without some type of object or idol we would be unable to worship God, unless I�m interpreting your post incorrectly.

You implied that people weren�t praying to God, rather the physical object.

People kill me when they say it's not idol worship, it's "symbolism"

Idiots, what do you think symbolism in religion is? IDOLTARY.

Islam has very STRICT rules against this. That is why you don't see any paintings of Muhammad or people praying to wooden thingd crafted by the hands of people.

Symbolism is a fancy way of idoltary.

Let's break down a crucifix. It's a peice of medal or copper or gold depending how low you stoop down of Jesus nailed to a cross. This is not symbolism of Jesus, that is a graven image of Jesus and hence is idoltary.

I agree with earthscum.

I was raised in a Catholic home and when I was young I used to go to church every Saturday with my mom and I would see people stepping up to the alter with that huge crucifix hanging from the ceiling and they would bow down and just sit there praying.

I was 12,13 years old and even then I knew something was wrong.


Oh, and saying the pledge of allegiance is worship also. Whenever you pledge yourself to something your submitting to it which is worship.

I got in a debate with my economics teacher in my senior year of high school towards because I was the only one in my class who wouldn't stand up when the Pledge came on and she tried to call me out in front of the whole class about it saying I'm wrong and blah blah until I made her look dumb infront of the entire class.

Originally posted by kinglizard
We are not worshiping the flag by saying the pledge of allegiance; likewise we are not worshiping the cross when we pray. They are merely symbols that represent something else.

Then why not pray to Jesus himself, instead of "representation" of him, which is idoltary.

This of course if your Christian.