Massive financial bailout fails in the House

Originally posted by Mdv2
Are all of you praising this outcome, totally insane?

Im no fan of Bush but I cannot agree more it's better to spend 700 more billion when a loss was reported of one trillion Dollars the other day.

America has done enough damage already to itself and the world. They should try everything possible to prevent this crisis from escalating even further.


[edit on 30-9-2008 by Mdv2]

It won't be, just 700 billion though, in the end it will be far far more than this amount. I believe I have read that in the end it will tally up into the trillions.

reply to post by Bunch


Lets get this out of the way right off the bat. Do you want a collapse of our current system?

reply to post by St Udio


Because bad mortgages aren't going to directly crash the economy. Bad mortgages are going to hurt the banks, which is turn will further freeze credit markets. THAT is the issue, not mortgages. Its what the bad assets lead to that is going to be the issue.

reply to post by grimreaper797


I think is more like investors are looking for bargains than investors getting their hopes up, volume is very light today because of the jewish holiday, the true test of investor confidence will come tomorrow.

[edit on 30-9-2008 by Bunch]

reply to post by Flash_dancer


Good Post, can't dispute it. We have been lending Money (blood) to banks (patients) that are fatally hemorrhaging. It doesn't seem to matter how much money we give to them, it isn't going to individual borrowers.

I too am surprised by the ratings of some of these banks, in the Insurance biz these seem to be monitored more, with upgrades or downgrades happening every 6 months of so as the financial condition of the company changes. That the banks seemed to go from AAA to garbage in a short span, indicates to me that either; A) The books hid a lot of bad debt or B) there was some sort of collusion/lax reporting to the ratings firms. This sort of thing shouldn't be catching the ratings companies by surprise, they should be noticing the steady decline of a bank in trouble.

reply to post by Bunch


If you were watching CNBC for the past hour of so, I have seen multiple interviews where they dismissed the idea that a bailout of some sort wouldn't be passed by thursday or latest, the end of the week.

They said things like "congress reacts. They didn't act, and the market reacted to that. They won't vote against this bailout again. We will have a bailout within 72 hours, at latest, the end of the week"

That and people looking for bargins as well. But a major part is the fact that the government is again going "we are close to a deal on the bailout" which I believe bush said today.

reply to post by grimreaper797


Ill answer for him, Yes I do want a complete and total collapse of our current system. It needs to collapse Grim. If these financial markets collapse it is a good thing. A fragile market economy that is based on speculation, bad loans, shady deals, predatory lending practices, and businesses that have to rely on loans just to meet operating costs MUST collapse. Sorry if your business isn't strong enough to support itself, sorry if you can't meet operating costs month to month on your own, but I as a taxpayer shouldn't suffer for your inadequate and fundamentally flawed business plan.

It's risk and return, I don't buy for one nanosecond that this deal is going to fix anything. This deal is just throwing good money after bad. This won't fix the problem, it will expound the problem. It will make someone else's problem MY problem.

This whole financial mess was not a surprise to anyone, (well it shouldn't be if people had been reading ATS) We had been warning of this collapse for two years now. Now it's a concern? It's too late. It could have been fixed two years ago but it wasn't.

I say let them fall, don't force the taxpayers to bail out failed businesses, let them go down the toilet. Thats where they belong if they can't come up with a solid business plan that works.

As for those that were duped by predatory lenders? Thats not my problem either. I didn't force anyone to take out a loan they could not afford, why should I bail them out?

I still call for all US members of this site to continue to pressure their lawmakers to deny this bill. Do Not Bail Out Failed Businesses!

700 Billion to bail out people that can't obviously be trusted with money to begin with? How is that supposed to fix anything? The truth is it won't. There is going to be a recession no matter what. It's the fault of those that sought to make a quick buck and didn't think ahead. Not my fault. I don't think that the American Taxpayer should be forced to worsen the recession by throwing away nearly a trillion dollars.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
reply to post by Bunch

 

Lets get this out of the way right off the bat. Do you want a collapse of our current system?

Yes and No.

All economic systems in theory they sound good, socialism, capitalism, communism the problem is implementation. Of course capitalism is the best by far but what is happening right now with capitalism is that is showing the flaws and cracks that comes with it.

Flaws and crack that are undermining the entire system as you can see with the nationalization of banks in the U.S. and Europe. It is happening right now, we are moving from capitalism to socialism, so to answer your question, THE SYSTEM IS ALREADY COLLAPSING!.

The system is good but in needs fixing, the type of fixing that this 700 billion dollars wont bring, you keep saying that it would buy time, time for what? At some point you have to take your losses and realize that the game can't not be continued to be played in its current form, so many fundamental rules have been broken that comprehensive measures need to take place not by the government, but by the markets itself.

Im not saying is going to be pretty, or that the government should not take steps to minimize the impact that a free market correction could bring, but bailouts upon bailouts upon bailouts is only going to delay the inevitable and I tell you this, the biggest the bubble the louder the sound it makes when it burst.

reply to post by grimreaper797


I agree with you that they will pass a bill. They have no choice. The consequences of the economy collapsing would be harsher than ignoring the voice of Americans. That being said I still think that every TOM, DICK, and HARRY that was responsible for this fiasco should be named and punished regardless of who they are. This fiasco itself should fall under domestic terrorism if there ever was a case for that. To let these people walk would only further invite future crisis of a similar nature.

reply to post by grimreaper797


I agree that a deal of some sorts is coming down by the end of the week, and I think is impact would be minimal.

I fully understand your worries and feelings, on the other side of the ocean we are heading into the same direction.

Various British, one French, and one German bank have been bailed out.
On Monday the 9th biggest bank in its kind was about to collapse. It's the Dutch/Belgian corporation Fortis. People lost trust in the company and its share lost more than 73% in one year.

The Dutch,Belgian and Luxembourgian governments injected 11 billion Euro's into the company otherwise it would have collapsed. Fortis is a healthy company, but it was so stupid to purchase ABN-AMRO at the wrong time for freaking 24 billion Euros. Now they have to sell it for 10 billion Euros. They only bought it one year ago. If they would have planned properly they could have known it was not the right time to do so.

However, if governments don't act now, the situation will be much worse. Basically, we have no choice but acting. 'What if' questions are not relevant in this matter. If they don't intervene with plans such as the 700 billion plan, these companies will go bankrupt. Consequence: people will loose confidence and a bank run will follow.

And then sh$t really hits the fan Believe me, you don't want to go through a crisis such as the great depression of the late 20s/30s.
If the economy collapses we will be much worse off then we are now.

Anyhow, godspeed to all of you.

[edit on 30-9-2008 by Mdv2]

Originally posted by whatukno
Ill answer for him, Yes I do want a complete and total collapse of our current system.

So you are ok with the loss of your job as a result, as well as a lack of a place to live?

If this market goes under, say good bye to your life. You aren't rich, you cannot up and move your assets to a foreign market. You will suffer more than any business owner.

You propose that we cut into the profits to teach those responsible a lesson, disregarding the fact it will destroy million upon millions of american lives in the process.

The taxpayer WILL pay, whether it be by a bill or a bullet. A collapse would be a bullet to the chest.

reply to post by Mdv2


How the government acquiring 700 billion dollars of toxic assets from these comanies change the fundamental flaw that the system needs fixing and these people that have manage to run their companies to the ground would still be in charge of them and that the ever quest for higher short term profits would still be driving the markets?

How it will unfreeze the credit markets, if companies dont trust each other? Cheap money to borrow and lend is out there, the Central banks have been injected billions upon billions to the markets...630 billions just yesterday, but that dont change the fact that institutions dont trust the system.

EDIT TO ADD: and I dont see how this pland would change that.

[edit on 30-9-2008 by Bunch]

reply to post by Bunch


Do you not remember history? Do you not remember what comes out of the ashes of desperation and depressions? Hitler, Mussolini, even our own HUGE growth in centralized government, ALL happened during depressions that created desperation among the people.

You say let the system fall so that we may rebuild. Human nature and history show that what will be rebuilt will be a monster. There is nothing here that shows me that this will be any different. Our people are more complacent than ever before. They are more dependent and likely to look for government to save them.

If this system goes down in flames, you can bet every penny that people will look to government to save them, rather than save themselves. At that point, the constitution won't matter nearly as much to people as survival.

HISTORY shows us that letting the system collapse, is always a bad decision. What are we buying time for? To easy this market into a recession. To let the correction occur so we can bring balance and order back into the system. YEARS of poor government policy got us to this point, and it will take some time, painful time, to pull ourselves out of these mistakes properly.

To do years of damage, then call for it to be paid in full in the matter of a couple weeks, is a death sentence.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
reply to post by Bunch

 

Lets get this out of the way right off the bat. Do you want a collapse of our current system?

Let's get this straight. It's not universally accepted that the economy will collapse. Collapse as an outcome is a broad generalization, which is not supported by evidence.

The American people deserve a more refined response, than a $700 Billion club. If this problem is so complex that some lawmakers are not able to sit in on the legislative process, then it is complex enough a problem to require a more precise solution.

The people in Washington are not smart enough to produce such a solution in 10 days, if they were this problem wouldn't exist. More debate, more collaboration is needed. A solution yes, but no quick fixes.

The solution that was presented yesterday, may be helping organizations that shouldn't be helped. If they are given a life line they'll revert to the same behavior. I could feel their mouths watering when the $700 Billion was first mentioned. Let's make them sweat and prove themselves worthy of saving.

reply to post by jam321


Start naming off every american citizen that took out a loan they had no means to pay back. They are, after all, the ones who willingly went into the contracts.

People, as well as the business owners, should pay for their mistakes. The CEO's didn't force these people to sign or even ask for a loan to buy a house. These people came in, and signed up for something they couldn't pay for. They are just as much, if not more, responsible for the current situation.

reply to post by bruxfain


First off, a completely freeze of the credit market, which is currently happening, AS WE SPEAK, will result in a collapse. No doubt about it.

Now, NOBODY is saying this is a solution. This 700 billion dollar bill...not a solution. It was never meant to solve the crisis. It was meant to slow it down. Give us time to act accordingly. This crisis is a drunk driver doing 120 down the freeway and hes running out of road, we need to slow it down and find a way to divert/defuse this disaster waiting to happen.

reply to post by grimreaper797


This country have fought for independance and won, this country have fought all the evils you just mention and won, we even fough each others then heal our wounds and manage to build this prosperous nation.... so who's forgetting history here?

Look, we agree on many things so dont let the basic fundamental disagreement that we have to think I dont understand your point. But it seems to me that you are willing to let our government to do anything "out of panic", and let me tell you "out of panic" you loose your rights, out of panic we have go to wars, out of panic you let your government make anything.

At let it be said, the government, the media, the analyst, Wall St., everyone that has a penny invested in this is trying to scare and panic the crap out of the people and is pathetic and has blowup in their faces.



[edit on 30-9-2008 by Bunch]

[edit on 30-9-2008 by Bunch]

[edit on 30-9-2008 by Bunch]

[edit on 30-9-2008 by Bunch]

reply to post by grimreaper797


Some of them are responsible. However, who are the ones that allowed loans to be given to individuals who didn't meet the criteria needed to secure those loans. If it hadn't been allowed then those people would have never been entitled to obtain a loan in the first place. These individuals with the power to correct things chose to look the other way while people were making good money off the market. And now that everything is coming to light everyone is walking around as if they didn't know. Accountability has to be upheld and those at the top of the food chain should be the first to go.

I agree that this is no longer about mortgages and has everything to do with credit.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
reply to post by bruxfain

 

First off, a completely freeze of the credit market, which is currently happening, AS WE SPEAK, will result in a collapse. No doubt about it.

Now, NOBODY is saying this is a solution. This 700 billion dollar bill...not a solution. It was never meant to solve the crisis. It was meant to slow it down. Give us time to act accordingly. This crisis is a drunk driver doing 120 down the freeway and hes running out of road, we need to slow it down and find a way to divert/defuse this disaster waiting to happen.

A complete freeze in the credit market, will stop growth. It won't affect credit that has already extended and most businesses are not operating with a 2 week horizon. Furthermore, The credit markets are not just now freezing up, it started in August 2007.

And even if the credit markets just started freezing up, it is some kind of flash freezing process. Why all of the sudden, within 2 weeks. All the greatest economic minds in Washington, all of the lawmakers and noone who matters was able to see this coming from a million miles away.

The bankers are doing this on purpose to squeeze $700 Billion out of the Government. That seems more plausible an explanation than the assertion that market forces are forcing the freeze of credit markets.

Your statement that the $700 Billion is not a solution, but instead just a band-aid to stop the bleeding isn't sweetening the offer. When, if ever, will these Banks and Lawmakers try and make a problem actually go away?