Legal Bid To Stop CERN Atom Smasher From 'Destroying The World'

Originally posted by g210b

I would like to see that calculations. Thought I worry less that cerns calculation is wrong but that the used theorie is wrong. Forexample where is the proof about the existence of Hawkings radiation and the imediate decy of mini black holes by this? Here is the critical point if this theorie is wrong then you have the mess.

Wikipedia does link to a document that has the calculations.
Posted on the Cornell University Document Archive as arXiv:0808.1415v1 [hep-ph]
The author, an apparent Astrophysicist, highlights the potential for "micro" black-holes and offers ways to minimise the risk. Personally I believe risk mitigation is always a good strategy.

An abstract of the Abstract (pun intended) is "A plausible scenario in which these black holes accrete ambient matter at the Eddington limit shortly after their production, thereby emitting Hawking radiation that would be harmful to Earth and/or CERN and its surroundings, is described."

A professor (not a physicist) has offered moral and reasoned arguments as to the decision to go live.

Originally posted by eaganthorn

Originally posted by g210b
Aren't scientists a little more curious and more ready to spend their life for gaining knowledge than the average men or women?

No, absolutely not! Where could you possibly come up with that idea?
What good is scientific data if you don't live to examine it? Think about it!

Absolutly yes! Scientists life for gaining knowledge. See if we have it about reading.. spend has a double meaning here and I choosed that word by intent.
I come to this idea because I know myself.
Counter question: What good is a life if you don't examine anything? If you don't care about anything? If you don't want to konw anything? If you dont explore anything? It would be boring.

Yes Scientists try to do their experiment with safety in mind. However in some cases you can only do estimations and do experiments based on unproven and unfinished theories and asumptions.

I just read a post above in this thread about the grow of the mini black hole in the center of the earth. One says 4 Years another billions of years. So who is right? And on what are this estimations based? On calculations with asumptions!
I'd say they are both wrong. Why? Who tells you that once the black hole has a certain size the earth doesnt starts breaking and imploding because the core presure is missing? I bet it does. So you need to calculate when that happens. And then again..aren't there effects before that could kill us or do devasting damages? What about the earth magenet field?

You call people ignorants that do read and think and conclude this experiment could be dangerous in any way. I call someone ignorant that calls this experiment as absolutly safe and hasn't understand on what this conclusion is based on.

If you have then please share your great knowledge and tell us why exactly it is that safe. That is more constructive helpfull and welcome than calling people ignorants.

If you haven't than please be that kind and consider to stop rushing into this thread with nothing than some harsh unnecessary words. That only shows a bad behaviour nothing more. Think about this.

What many fail to understand is this.
The so called scientists who are lobbying against it, are affiliated with religious groups.
They don't truly believe it will end the world or create longer living black holes because it simply cannot.
They are lobbying against it purely because they believe looking for the "god" particle is bad.
And finding out more about the origins of the universe contradicts more of the religious rhetoric dribble they try and force down peoples throats.
Its about control, they fear many will cease allowing them to control them after more real facts are discovered.
These people have motives no one see's.
They cant expect the whole population to do as they do and believe as they believe.There is no risk of this thing blowing up or eating anything.
Go look into the background of the people opposing it.
You will find heavily religious roots.

Originally posted by -0mega-
At least people won't be able to make excuses like "I'm too young to die! I don't want to leave those people behind!" considering how everyone will be dead.

Leave no man behind.

[edit on 31/8/08 by -0mega-]

You made me LOL

On the serious note, I doubt anything will happen(End of the world pfff ). If I remember correctly they said that no man can go faster than the speed of sound or they will disintegrate. The theory was proven wrong and now we got super jet and stuff. For us to discover something we need to go beyond the modern laws.

[edit on 1-9-2008 by apk4o7mxb]

FYI on the Science Channel Sunday night there was a show called "The Big Bang Machine", I'm sure it will be on again. Anyone with Tivo/DVR can search for it and record it.

While I did miss the first 20 minutes or so (60 min show) and it was late, the basics of what I remember;
1.The machine is a larger version of the colliders that we already have
2.The intent of this machine is to look for the "god particle", which is name they gave to a particle that they have yet to find in reality. They have come up with equations that show this particle to exist but have not found it yet. The reason they have not found it yet is, this is a larger particle that gave mass to all atom particles. In current equations (overly complex) for particles all the equations balance out with the exception of the equations show the particles to not have mass. Larger particles (what makes up atoms) tend to break up quickly and do not get created due to the colliders we have currently are to small to create them. Besides being able to claim the largest collider in the world (which will lead to other exp.) the intent is to find the god particle.
3.The show did discuss the possibility of black holes and the scientist simply said that while there is a small possibility of this happening the math they have gone thru says that this won't happen. Also, the possibility of the black holes roots out of other theories that are uproven. Sounded like black holes come about out of a if A then B then C then D happens kind of thing. Creating mini Blackholes is NOT the purpose of this machine.

I encourage anyone to watch it if you get the science channel, of course a grain of salt with everything.

Again the name of the show was "The Big Bang Machine"

This experiment is like myth busters on steroids, little kids at heart with bigger toys.

This experiment is so crazy.

Some things...man is not meant to mess with...think "Frankenstein"!

Originally posted by nightlark

Originally posted by g210b

I would like to see that calculations. Thought I worry less that cerns calculation is wrong but that the used theorie is wrong. Forexample where is the proof about the existence of Hawkings radiation and the imediate decy of mini black holes by this? Here is the critical point if this theorie is wrong then you have the mess.

Wikipedia does link to a document that has the calculations.
Posted on the Cornell University Document Archive as arXiv:0808.1415v1 [hep-ph]
The author, an apparent Astrophysicist, highlights the potential for "micro" black-holes and offers ways to minimise the risk. Personally I believe risk mitigation is always a good strategy.

That is interesting. I will read this.
Thank you very much!

Was so absorbet to become angry about eaganthorn that I missed your post.

Ok, so, I got the *God* particle part - it’s what scientists are looking for.
But what I don’t get?
What are they going to do with it if they find it?
How is it going to prove anything?
What use will it have to worldkind (mankind)?
Will it feed the hungry, clothe the poor, cure AIDS, turn Africa into a rainforest?
I mean - what’s the point?
Is there even a point that’s worth the risk of imploding the whole wide world?








...He's got the whole World in His Hands, He's got the wholeeee World...

[edit on 1-9-2008 by silo13]

I think its pretty funny that anyone thinks they have even a remote chance at stopping a project with a budget of 4.4 billion British pounds(around 10billion+ dollars).

You really think that their just going to say "Oh ok, we've put billions of dollars and years of work into this, but we will be willing to stop because some of you feel that this could lead to a complete disaster. We'll stop operations just over a week before we actually achieve our goal which has cost us billions of dollars and years of our lives to accomplish, don't worry everyone who contributed will be totally cool with this, I mean really, 4.4 billion is chump change and we don't need it back, we're more than happy to flush it down the drain!"

Common really? There is 0% chance that anyone will convince any legal authority to shut them down..... What a joke

How about this, i guarantee nothing will happen, i bet my car my appartment, my dogs and all my money on it....wait take my wife too shes been a handful lately. What a crock or crap

reply to post by g210b

If you have then please share your great knowledge and tell us why exactly it is that safe. That is more constructive helpfull and welcome than calling people ignorants.

I humbly submit that I have no great knowledge of the universe, I have only what I consider a modest education with many years of life and experience. Perhaps traveling as much as I have or my career has given me some additional insight to a few things but for the most of it, I’m just a logical thinker like most of the people here.

Ignorance is a lack of knowledge, a lack of understanding, nothing more. It is not meant to indicate sinister or malicious intent. We are all ignorant to some things, I have no problem claiming ignorance to facts unknown to me. It is a pity that so many do have an issue with accepting that they are ignorant to something. What make this issue and other scientific issues a burden is when people ignorant to the facts, are unwilling to accept new information even when it goes beyond reason to do so.

Anyone who thinks that it is possible to fall off the edge of the earth, is ignorant to the fact that the world is round, would you not agree? Those who protested Christopher Columbus’ explanation that the world was round and that he could reach the east by going west did so out of ignorant fear. They did not wish him ill will or harm, they were concerned for his and his crew’s safety. There was plenty of scientific support at the time to indicate that the earth was indeed round. Columbus merely wanted to chart a new trade route to the east using this information, to him and others in the community, round earth was already a fact.

These people often speak up when confronted by new ideas, however that being said they can be just as important as the science they protest. They do in fact create the skeptical voice that may call for thoughts or considerations not yet postulated or expressed. On this project however, these considerations were all taken into account years ago, long before the first brick was laid. For people to attempt a disruption at this stage is either ignorance, wicked ignorance or a tactical attempt at control.

Again, I recommend that you and others, who are concerned about the project, take the time to read about it, I have listed the links in an earlier post on this very thread. Once you do read about it, I am confident that you will understand that this project simply recreates a similar event that occurs naturally all around us. The event isn’t what the scientist are focused on, it is recording the event to collect the data, which is the real story.

If you felt that I was attacking you personally, I sincerely apologize as it was not my intent, I was identifying the ignorance of the claim, "that the use of the collider to collect data was dangerous", and I stand by my statement.

[edit on 9/1/2008 by eaganthorn]

[edit on 9/1/2008 by eaganthorn]

reply to post by eaganthorn


Thank's for calrifying. Well let's forget about it eaganthorn.

Read the the paper in the link that nightlark just posted (on top of the page).

That is really an interesting paper. I have to confess it is just a bit above my horizon. But the basic I get and I just learnt some new things from it I didn't know before. The argument with the dwarfs for example. (cosmic object)

If you just check the conclusion you see that there are even more things to consider and it isnt that clear that there is no danger at all although in that paper the danger comes form another edge.. too much hawking radiations..



[edit on 1-9-2008 by g210b]

I seem to recall that there were some scientist that believe that if we exploded the first atomic bomb that the whole world would be in fire. Umm. I believe that more than several bombs have been exploded since then and we are still here. Besides I read somewhere that on Octoberf 14 2008 there will be a very large UFO in the state of Alabama and stay there for three days just to show the world that there is something else out there besides us. So I don't believe anything will happen in 10 days pertaining to CERN. Just let the boys play with their toys and see what happens.

why are they worrying about an experiment which has the very slight chance of destroying the world, while we've already invented a weapon which could destory the world and then made it in the tens of thousands.

think about the battles your fighting.

reply to post by g210b


Anytime my friend. Sometimes I do need to clarify my comments.

I have read some of the safety concerns and yes, you are absolutely correct, there are many serious safety considerations that the operators must stay on top of to maintain an accident free workplace. With a facility that large, the amount of electricity used, liquid Nitrogen and liquid Helium, the shear power of the magnets being employed, it is a big task and a big ordeal to manage. They must work very hard to avoid accidents and over exposure to the various components, elements, radiation, etc. But it is manageable in the same way as any large facility that uses magnets powerful enough to pull the very iron in your blood out of your body and elements in a state that can flash freeze your corpse to -270 degrees. Other than that, it’s safe.

But I couldn't work there, I'm far too clumsy.

reminds me of, the atomic bomb test's the scientist's were 50/50 that it would destroy the earth. the atomic bombs should neve have been made, and neither should this.

Why cant they just wait a few more years, and look at the new theories, instead of looking for the god particle.
the only thing they can hope to achieve from this, is to find the building blocks of exsitance, wich should not be put into our hands.

I dont know why but, reading about this now it reminds me alot of what happens at the start of the game Half Life, completely unrelated i know but still.

Btw, i thought the experiment in geneva was to happen back in may? i remember reading about this last year.

Originally posted by wolfmanjack

It wouldn't really matter WHERE they were.. If a blackhole were made that sucked the earth into it the rest of the solar system would get sucked into it also.
[edit on 1-9-2008 by wolfmanjack]

From what I've researched, if a black hole (with the same mass as "our" sun) replaced our sun, there would be no change, except for certain "functions" of the sun, like heat and light.

EDIT FOR SPLLEING

[edit on 1-9-2008 by flyindevil]

hi all, im confused
can someone explain something to me

wouldn't recreating what happened seconds before the bing bang........ you know... recreate what happened seconds before the big bang?