Legal Bid To Stop CERN Atom Smasher From 'Destroying The World'

I work for the STFC, who are funding this, and I've raised these concerns to have it explained to me fully.

It boils down to the fact that they are not using enough energy to initiate a sustainable black hole.

As it will be done in a vacuum the hole will simply exist for a fraction of a second, then end.

So relax.

Fire it up. I want to see what they discover. What ever it is that happens, we're going to learn something, even if its that we are mortal and life as we know it will end.

Zindo
PS: See you all on the other side!!!

Hey, if something bad happens, maybe we'll learn that there's life after death!

Imagine God:

"What the hell did you guys do!?"

I'd laugh, pretty hard. Anyways, like previous posters have stated, why does it matter? We won't care if anything happens. We all have to go sometime, why not being sucked into a black hole?

Cool story to tell...

Wait a second...

Mitch

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
As it will be done in a vacuum the hole will simply exist for a fraction of a second, then end.

A vacuum that is filled with a particle stream (=mass). Plenty of new mass there colliding every fraction of a second at the same place where that mini blackhole might just be genarated. Now if it vaporizes before the next bunch of particle riding the acceleration wave gets there to feed it then it's all fine. According to the theorie (hawkings radiation once more) the lifetime of that mini black hole is that short that it is considered safe.
I personel miss a prove for that theorie.
Hawking is not that genius that i would say hey it is sure rigth what he says. He corrected himself many times. So only a prove of his radiations at the quantum level can tell you if his hawking radiation theorie is right.
And that prove you get through observation... of a mini black hole.
I haven't seen such a prove yet. Just thories and claims. And that is what I consider dangerous here.

The only thing that can give somewhat relief is that collisions with this energy you will have in LHC are happening natural in our atmosphaere every day and nothing happend. The Earth still exists. This is a main argument from the pros and this is a valid argument. However one little point shouldnt be forgotten here. The conditions in the LHC collisions and the one happening in the atmosphaere are different. (continus particle stream and momentum)
So a serious consideration is really importand to do and it may not be based on any unproven theorie. But that of course had to happen before the LHC was build with 4.4 Billion and I really hope it was done and with care. It would be a shame to vast all the money and more importand the chance of gaining new and exiting knowledge by not activateing it now that it is build.

Lets see - Nuclear bomb or black hole....
Give me the black hole.

(in reference to all the fear mongering going on in the news lately about Russia, Georgia, etc. and the threat of nuclear war.)

Seriously - let CERN go forward...it will anyway, petitions wont stop it.
It will all work out.

On the other hand, getting a group of thugs to stop threatening nuclear war is a different thing. Maybe they need to be stuck in the collider when it turns on...let the black hole swallow them first.

Peace

dAlen

[edit on 31-8-2008 by dAlen]

On september 10th they are only doing a full loop, they are not colliding until october i think. October however could get a little scary.

With all this talk of black holes and such, it isn't that far fetched to believe such a collision in such a small space, at almost speed of light will actually tear a hole in space... Im proud to be living in this time of history... truly (not sarcasm) , I Expect that after these experiments our lives and future will be severly changed if for good or worse. Either way it will bring us closer to being "one" with the universe.

[edit on 31-8-2008 by aLinkToThePast]

At least people won't be able to make excuses like "I'm too young to die! I don't want to leave those people behind!" considering how everyone will be dead.

Leave no man behind.

[edit on 31/8/08 by -0mega-]

This weeks New Scientist has a good feature on the LHC. That, combined with the dark matter indications here
, encourage me to think that there are big advances in our understanding on the way. It's compelling.

reply to post by g210b


Dude, I'm not in a position to argue the point. I don't know.

You might be right. You might not. I'm putting my money on the scientists who have spent their lives creating this, as they are the ones with the big juicy brains. If they say it isn't going to use enough energy to create a large enough black hole, then I'm good with it.

After all, they live on the planet too.

Originally posted by kcfusion
I have to laugh when I read about this CERN business. If they know nothing can possibly go wrong, that means they already know the answer to their experiment, so why bother do the experiment at all?

Huh? You think the purpose of the LHC experiments are to determine that "nothing can possibly go wrong", ie. it won't create stable black holes?

The LHC has a far greater purpose than that. They want to determine the validity of the standard model of physics and whether the Higgs Boson is a real particle as predicted by the standard model. It will be a stepping stone on the path to develop the Grand Unified Field Theory and will answer many important questions that physicists have wondered about for decades. No doubt there are going to be a lot of surprises as well when results start coming in. The results of theses experiments will be fascinating and something I've been looking forward to for years.

I'm a very pro-science kind of guy, but they never did quite address the public's concerns to my satisfaction. Hopefully at least that will come out of this.

Supposedly cosmic rays routinely hit the earth with energy greater than what they will be experimenting on. And that's the best rationalization I've heard for this experiment yet. But my question is, how often do these cosmic rays produce results identical to what CERN is trying to achieve? If this isn't something that naturally happens more than once in a million years or so, it's probably not a good idea. Because it might be producing something the likes of which the earth has never seen.

Another point, I'm certain that humanity IS capable of performing experiments that CAN destroy the earth, even if this one can't. So it would be very disappointing if somebody didn't raise a ruckus over this. That would set a troubling precedent.

I don't understand why people are so worried, the world is not going to end. Even if tiny black holes are created they can't do anything as they won't last that long and their gravitational pull would be negligible since their mass is tiny. Regular black holes only have strong gravitational pulls because they have a large mass and small radius, allowing things to get closer to what was already there. If you were standing on a star and it became a black hole, as long as you are at the same point you won't notice any different in the gravitational pull. If you go closer to the now denser mass then you will.

This is going to be as dramatic as when JET was turned on i.e. nothing happened that anybody other than some scientist got excited about.

Not saying this is not great stuff but for god's sake "Nothing bad is gonna happen"

see you on the 11th

reply to post by AllSeeingI


There is no reason for anyone to fear this project, except for the truly ignorant. The very idea that the thousands of scientist and engineers needed to design, build, operate and manage this massive device and project, as well as the many investors and participating countries, would or could overlook such simple safety factors as to cause of the end of the world, goes beyond absurdity. It is wickedly ignorant.

Only the truly ignorant would not wish to understand by reading the supplied information about this project.

Only the truly ignorant would form the opinion of impending doom without learning the facts first about this or any other scientific research.

Only the truly ignorant would declare that they do not need the facts of this or any other project to “know” their position.

In the simplest of terms;

The project is designed to capture the event in a specific place and time to allow the various array of sensors to examine in greatest detail, exactly what happens when these particles collide at near light speed. The same event takes place all over the universe, millions of times each second of every minute, of every hour, of every day, of every month, of every year, of every century, etc.

Scientist have not been able to record the event as yet because they have not known when and where to set up and focus the array of sensors to record the specific data. This collider solves that problem and allows for this study and many more yet to be theorized as a result of the initial collection of data.

No one can educate you, for you, you must feel the need to learn for yourself if you wish to understand. I would invite anyone to read as much as possible about this or any other scientific study and in doing so you should begin to notice that there is one underlying common principle to all scientific research, “safety first”.

These links should help you to understand.

lhc.web.cern.ch...

www.lhc.ac.uk...

public.web.cern.ch...

Eagan

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
Dude, I'm not in a position to argue the point. I don't know.

A pity. I had liked a little discussion about that subject that could have shed some more light on why they think it is safe.

I'm putting my money on the scientists who have spent their lives creating this, as they are the ones with the big juicy brains.

Well, in true you put your money AND your life on their big juicy brains. And their big juicy brains put all life on the planet inlcuding my little one to a risk. And this I take personel!
The point is if (big if) it goes wrong because a thought fault or a wrong theorie there is no undo button. So they better have to be sure about what they do.

I think it is well thought and it is safe. Heck I am very courious about the results and the possible discoveries and am looking forward to the first collisions!
But I honest also see some weak points in their "it's so safe" that at least I don't see filled in satisfying. But sure I dont have their knowledge.

After all, they live on the planet too.

Aren't scientists a little more curious and more ready to spend their life for gaining knowledge than the average men or women?

Let me update people here this is not NEW, this has already been done after the ROSEWELL CRASH they took the technology from that craft at that time at converted it to slamming atoms together in a three mile radius underground to create antimatter. This was on the discovery channel not too far back that stated they had people working on the crafts implications.



I believe it was in Ohio, BUT it could have also been, Iowa.

They were slamming all of these atoms together in what looked like miles and miles of tubing underground. Looked like a giant track full of tubing.

There was also a show that did the testing of the amount of antimatter coming into our earths atmophere. In essence they were creating mini-blackholes underground.

They had elaborated studies from the 1980's to give the information on further progress on their results. They showed how their scientists underground were picking this thing apart that of course being the craft from an underground analysis.


Just curious how many out there actually saw this showing?







[edit on 31-8-2008 by menguard]

Originally posted by g210b
Aren't scientists a little more curious and more ready to spend their life for gaining knowledge than the average men or women?

No, absolutely not! Where could you possibly come up with that idea?
What good is scientific data if you don't live to examine it? Think about it!

Number one rule in real scientific research; Safety First!

The number one rule is missing in Science Fiction writing.

If the hadron collider doesnt destroy the world,
then world war 3 with either russia or iran will
so either way
somethings gonna destroy it.

Black holes wont form because they dont exist.

Anyway considering how frighteningly reluctant science is to admit its current mistakes and just how wrong it is in many places, will we even get the "real" results of the experiment?

reply to post by eaganthorn


i think the main point of peoples concerns is that if scientists knew exactly what was going to happen they wouldnt need to do the experiment, but the fact that they do need to do the experiment means that they really dont know whats going to happen, they can theorise and postulate all they like but untill the on switch is flicked its still very much a mystery.

lets face it how many times have scientists screwed up experiments or gotten results contrary to their theories or beliefs or had "unknown factors" effect the results of theor experiments?

dont get me wrong i find the potential knowledge we could gain from the LHC rather exciting, i just wonder do they really know what they are doing...