Why was jesus crucified?

reply to post by Horza
Well, to be very blunt, to continually try and emulate Christ, in way of life, in thinking, in acting. To study the Word of God, and if it says to do something then do it, if it says to not do something then don't. To repent of the old lifestyle, habits, thoughts, speech and to try and live for God.

Jesus said to "love God with all your heart, mind, and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself", that all of God's OT commandments basically can be boiled down to those two.

The best way to grow in one's walk with God is to read His Word, to reflect and examine yourself, and do your best to put His Words into action in your life. Of course it's "baby steps", but over time one becomes a mature Christian.

reply to post by Horza


Here, this is it:


“Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments” (Matthew 22:37-40). If we do these two things, we will be fulfilling all that Christ wants for us to do, “This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3).

Originally posted by Horza

In effect you are saying that you can live your life, to an extent, in anyway you see fit and that you will be still be given the reward of eternal life just because you believe that Jesus was the son of a god.

No only you said that. It's called a straw man argument. When you accept Christ if you are sincere you repent of your sins. If you don't repent then it quite obvious you didn't really accept him as Lord. Does this mean I am perfect - no - but I don't blatantly seek to sin. And I receive help from God and fellow Christians that hold me accountable.

I have evidence that it works because I have made HUGE improvements over time. Bad habits are gone. Addictions cured etc.

First strawman burned down - next.

So are you saying that all these pedophiliac Catholic priests, the Christians that tried to ethnically cleanse Serbia of Muslims and ethnic Albanians, the Christians that stole a generation of Australian Aboriginal and put them into orphanages, the Christians that invaded a Iraq and killed millions of civilians, the Spanish Inquisition!!! will be given the reward of eternal life because they believed in your god and prayed to him and worshipped him and read the bible and preached and converted others???

Really?

No not really - only you said that garbage. Obviously there are many fake Christians.

Consider:
The existence of counterfeit money does not prove that real money doesn;t exist.

Same strawman - different hat - burned down.

I am serious ... I would like a really good answer for this one please ...

Well you need to answer it then! Because apparently you are talking to yourself. As I said none of the above.

This is the kind of blatant misrepresentation and fallacious assault that shows the ignorance of most critics of Christianity.



[edit on 8/25/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Thanks for your reply.
I looked over your list, it's a big one for sure, but without actual versus to reference, I've had to manually look them up, I'm not finished, and it's taking alot of my time.
I won't be able to respond to everyone of them sry.
I also have not found anything conclusive in the Torah that concludes that Jesus was the Messiah so far either, but have only confirmed for me the opposite is true.
Is there something specific you would like to discuss that you can conclude to be undeniable evidence for your position?

If we read the Torah enough or research the info we would find that 300 years before Jesus's arrival and 200 years after the distruction of the first Temple in Jerusalem, the Great Sanhedrin closed the last book of the Torah. Never to be opened again until certain conditions were met, and certain events took place upon the Messiahs arrival. Sounds spooky kinda. I wonder if it's in the Ark of the Covenant hmm. I have no way of knowing but I wouldn't put it past them.
Anyway these conditions were never met in Jesus's time, and the historic events described in the Torah never trasnpired or came to fratuity.
These conditions, and events are decribed with detail in the Torah, and have never happened before in recorded history.

If these conditions and events were to start to manifest themselves today, and we were lucky enough to figure it out ahead of time, then we might all want to start working our way to converting to Judaism as I am, because it would be a clear indicator that the time is near. Or maybe not

To learn more about what I am talking about, I have recently written a few pages about this here at ATS that can answer alot of questions people might have about Judaism and the Messiah.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
I also have a couple links to help better understand "Why Jesus was not the Messiah".
These links were a little difficult to find because they share a Jewish perspective.
Most sites you find on the internet are similar, but are from a Christian perspective which I tend to stay away from now.
judaism.about.com...
en.allexperts.com...

Thanks for the 365 reasons lol. Yikes what a task.

reply to post by 4x4fun
Forgive me if I am wrong, but I'll assume that you aren't looking at the "fulfillment" verses in the New Testament.

reply to post by 4x4fun


Here's another resource in your search...linkage from the Torah and Jesus, to marinate on

"Before Abraham Was, I Am" (Jn.8:58)

1. Jesus does not say 'Before Abraham was, I was". He was the promised descendant of Abraham; we make a nonsense of God's promises to Abraham if we say that Jesus physically existed before the time of Abraham.

2. The context of Jn.8:58 is Christ's discourse with the Jews concerning Abraham. As far as they were concerned, Abraham was the greatest man who would ever live. Jesus is saying "I am now, as I stand here, more important than Abraham". As they stood there, Jesus was the one to be honoured rather than Abraham. He is saying 'I am now, more important than Abraham ever was'. It is possible to understand "before" in Jn.8:58 with some reference to time, in the sense that before Abraham existed, Christ had been in God's plan right from the beginning of the world. It was because Jesus was "before" Abraham in this sense that he was "before" him in terms of importance.

3. Proof of this is found in Jn.8:56: "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day; and he saw it, and was glad". The only time Abraham is recorded to have laughed and be glad was when he was given the promise that he would have a seed; he understood that ultimately that promise had reference to Jesus (Gen.17:17). Abraham "saw" ahead to Christ through the promises made to him concerning Jesus. He cryptically commented about the future sacrifice of Jesus: "In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen" (Gen.22:14). It was in this sense that Jesus speaks of Abraham as having seen him. It is in this context of speaking about the promises that Jesus could say "Before Abraham was, I am". He appreciated, as we have explained in Section 3.1, that God's promises to Abraham were revealing the plan about Jesus which God had known from the beginning of the world. That purpose, which had been "before Abraham was", had been revealed to Abraham in the promises to him, and was now being fulfilled in the eyes of the Jews of the first century, as they stood in a ring around Jesus, "the word (of promise) made flesh".

4. It is often claimed that Jesus is alluding to the Divine Name when he says "I am". We explained in Digression 3 that Jesus and indeed ordinary men can carry the Name of God, without this meaning that they are God Himself in person. However, it may be that Jesus is simply using the present tense of the verb 'to be'. The very same Greek construction occurs in Jn.9:9 a few verses later. The neighbours of the blind man who was cured asked each other whether he was indeed the same man who used to sit and beg: "Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am (he)" . You will notice that in the A.V. the word "he" is in italics. This means that it is not found in the original Greek text, but has been added by the translators. The blind man is saying "I am", just as Jesus said "I am" in Jn.8:58. If we say that the fact Jesus said "I am" proves that he is very God, then we have to conclude that the blind man was also "very God". However, it is worth noting that Yahweh, the Divine Name, really means "I will be who I will be" (Ex.3:14 R.S.V.mg.; R.V.mg.) rather than "I am".
Source: www.biblebasicsonline.com...

Originally posted by OldThinker

2. It is possible to understand "before" in Jn.8:58 with some reference to time, in the sense that before Abraham existed, Christ had been in God's plan right from the beginning of the world. It was because Jesus was "before" Abraham in this sense that he was "before" him in terms of importance.

Or, it is possible to understand that phrase differently if Jesus separates himself as a human, from the Divine spark that is Christ. The Divine embodiment of Gods will in human form, "the Christ" existed before Abraham, before Jesus, and is eternal. Jesus stresses the importance of the manifestation of God that is "him" in that moment not because Jesus himself is superior to Abraham. But because the will of God in the present trumps or is more holy than the will of God in the past.

www.blueletterbible.org...

He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

I feel that this refers to the idea that God is life itself. Where life is, God is. Which is why "thou shalt not kill" is one of the commandments.

I know that this is not acceptable to many Christians, and I am not arguing to convince, only stating the read I have of it.

I feel that Jesus is saying that if you become an open conduit to God's will, and allow the will of God to dictate your actions, rather than your own "selfish" interests, IF you can see that all others are also vessels for and carriers of God, and treat all as your would yourself be treated, regardless how far astray some individual vessel is, if you can not judge them, but allow God to do that in his own time, his own way, you can become a "Christ." Filled with the Holy spirit, rather than your own individual will. Most never will, at least not consistently, and so a "Christ" in the fullest sense is a rare being.

There were those who accepted the "will of God" and dedicated their earthly form to obeying it before Abraham, and now (in that time) Jesus was, and there would be a time when one would do so again. That "will of God" is the "I am" that Jesus is referring to, in my opinion, Jesus is NOT referring to his human form, his individual self, but to the Divine will he chooses, like a child, to obey with trust and love. He has given over his form entirely to this eternal will, and he has rejected his own Ego, or self identity in favor of it to a degree most humans will never be able to.

Jesus also says;

www.biblegateway.com...:19&version=9;

Luke 18:19 (King James Version)
19And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

And if you look at Luke 18:10-14, it is an elaboration on the importance of making God's will and authority more important than the individual "self" or Ego. Even, as in the case of Luke 18:10-14, if the one with the strong Ego is following the "law" or word of God to the letter, but is doing so in a self or Ego aggrandizing way.

Over and over, Jesus preaches that what is "good" is to set aside the "ego" or individual will, in favor of the Divine will. Whatever than might be. Jesus' willingness to give his entire earthly body and life and will over to God for his purpose is what made him the embodiment of "Christ." Not his birth, or his DNA. His sacrifice of his actual life, his death, was the ultimate physical manifestation of this willingness to be a vessel for God's will, and not his own individual will.

Not all sacrifice of one's life would meet this criteria. If one was "martyred" but submitted willingly to ones own death with the thought of personal aggrandizement or reward in heaven, one would be like the Pharisee in Luke 18:10-14. One's sacrifice would be in vain. It would in fact be vanity, or the act of self aggrandizement, rather than an act of submission to the will of God for God's sake alone.

In fact, Jesus displays this when he is asking that "this cup be taken from me." He is not personally ecstatic to give his life and suffer, he is willing to if that is God's will, and he will do it obediently. He is not thinking how great he will be for doing so, but acknowledging his own will is less important than the will of God. His struggles with Satan I read as a struggle with his own will, his Ego, trying to lead him to aggrandize himself, his earthly self and will, over the will of God and his submission to it.

Originally posted by OldThinker
If we say that the fact Jesus said "I am" proves that he is very God, then we have to conclude that the blind man was also "very God". However, it is worth noting that Yahweh, the Divine Name, really means "I will be who I will be" (Ex.3:14 R.S.V.mg.; R.V.mg.) rather than "I am".

Perhaps he is in that moment, the very God. Perhaps we all are, we either know it, and allow the will of God to guide us, despite the protests of our Ego or earthy self or mental identity, or we allow this Satan, this "idea of individual self" to dictate our actions. Perhaps most of us, at some point in our life are the embodiment of "the very God" if only for a second, before we fall back into our Egoic mind, and go along perpetrating OUR will. Perhaps only those very, very few such as Jesus are able to sustain this submission of the individual identity to the Divine, and take on the identity of Christ over their own.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


OK, it’s been a long day…and yes I am for treating all decently and with respect…I’m having some trouble following you here…not you, me…

Can you say it shorter and more concise?

Are you saying what the serpent said, a long time ago?

In…Genesis 3:5…For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and YOU WILL BE LIKE GOD, knowing good and evil.”???

OT

Like many soap opera type programs we now have today, he was written out or killed out of the script so he could be replaced, just as they do with Doctor Who when he regenerates.

Originally posted by OldThinker

Are you saying what the serpent said, a long time ago?

In…Genesis 3:5…For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and YOU WILL BE LIKE GOD, knowing good and evil.”???

No. If we take it to the "fall" I am saying that the serpent would correlate to the Ego, the idea of a self or identity that was separate from God. The thing that wants to be aggrandized is the serpent, the Ego, Satan, whatever you would care to call it.

The Ego is saying YOU Adam, YOU Eve, (as wholly independent beings) can know on your own, and can decide what is good and evil. YOU are the important thing here, you do not need to allow God to lead you, you can decide for your "self."

Where what Jesus would be saying in my opinion, is that;

YOU cannot judge, only God can, YOU as an individual mind are not the important thing at all. God is the only important thing, and if you allow the spirit to fill you, and God to lead you, you will find that you never left Eden. What you need, God will give you, YOU do not need to worry and fear and be afraid of death. YOU this idea of YOU can only lead you astray, set it aside, see others as your equal and great not because of your OWN sake, or theirs, but because God is the life in all of you. To the degree you think your "self" important, you move away from God. To the degree you realize your "self" or will is the very thing that will cause you to turn away from God's will, and heed the will of God ignoring the "self will" you can find heaven.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


OK Thanks for the clarification...

I'm cool with that!

OT

PS: Pls stop over on the 'Jesus is real to me...am I delusional?' thread, love to hear your input

God bless!

OT
Phil1:3

Originally posted by Horza

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
For claiming to be God.

Which was in fact true, bu they killed him anyway.

Thank God they did, now my sins are forgiven.

He's coming back VERY soon. This time he is not going to give in.

I have a problem with this ... I really do ...

In effect you are saying that you can live your life, to an extent, in anyway you see fit and that you will be still be given the reward of eternal life just because you believe that Jesus was the son of a god.

i'm going to have to agree with Horza here BW.

I couldn't help but think of this picture when i read this.

With the way you said that; it seems as if you’re downplaying a person’s death as some sort of advantageous incident; which is absurd when considering the immorality of murdering someone in the first place.

Are you seriously saying that you’re glad this man was killed? Is this a circumstance in which the ends justifies the means? Perhaps i'm misinterpreting you here, but it just strikes me as unsympathetic. (pun intended)

I’d never wish anyone to suffer or die for my benefit . . .

[edit on 8/27/2008 by JPhish]

Originally posted by Horza
In effect you are saying that you can live your life, to an extent, in anyway you see fit and that you will be still be given the reward of eternal life just because you believe that Jesus was the son of a god.

Because someone else already replied to the above, I'd like to go a different route and ask you a question instead. Is there any way God can win in your opinion? I'm genuinely curious. He offers grace for free, He makes it very simple, and asks for only one thing. Yet people still find a way to criticize Him. Yet, if the Bible gave us a list of unending commands of how to be saved, critics would be saying, 'What a system of control!'

Then it doesn't end there. If people reject a very merciful, free, and easy gift, according to the Bible they face judgement. So we then hear, 'God is unmerciful!' No, His mercy was rejected. So how can God win? If he offers a free pardon He is criticized. If people reject the free pardon, He is criticized. Mercy or judgment He is criticized.

As for that site: Many, many silly arguments. Not your fault- I understand you didn't write it. However, I'm not going to take the word of a single non-Christian prophet who came along six centuries later over the historical sources, both secular and Christian, of the first and second centuries that documented the crucifixion. Not to mention the Gospel accounts. Then one of the arguments that site uses to 'PROVE' the crucifixion didn't occur are Bible books written approximately 700-1,000 years before the life of Jesus? Not to mention, they were not intellectually honest because they totally failed to present the Messianic prophecies in the same books that refer to a crucifixion taking place of the future Messiah. None of their arguments made an ounce of sense and the evidence is in the favor of Christ's crucifixion being a historical event.

[edit on 8/27/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
YOU cannot judge, only God can, YOU as an individual mind are not the important thing at all. God is the only important thing, and if you allow the spirit to fill you, and God to lead you, you will find that you never left Eden. What you need, God will give you, YOU do not need to worry and fear and be afraid of death. YOU this idea of YOU can only lead you astray, set it aside, see others as your equal and great not because of your OWN sake, or theirs, but because God is the life in all of you. To the degree you think your "self" important, you move away from God. To the degree you realize your "self" or will is the very thing that will cause you to turn away from God's will, and heed the will of God ignoring the "self will" you can find heaven.

I am god, and I am arguing with myself.

I can not see any possible way to get rid of my ego. But I can see past my own ego. I know what you are saying, and I know it to be true as far as we are all god. I really don't see how I can "let go".

It sounds nice and all, but I don't see how it is possible.

It's pretty well documented in the Gospel of Mark that Jesus was crucified because he was a demon-casting sorcerer and necromancer who came to believe that he was greater than that other famous sorcerer, King Solomon.

He became a public nuisance by forcibly expelling the money lenders from the Temple (why not?, since is was 'his' temple), and generally acting insane and doing questionably horrible things like raising people from the dead. Even his own followers started believe he was either possessed or crazy.

He developed a relatively large following because of his demon-aided miracles, and came to be viewed by the Romans and Jews as a potential threat. There was already a lot of grumbling about a revolt going on, and Jesus was not helping. That would be the Jesus you read about in Luke. Fifty years after the crucifixion there was a failed revolt, but it didn't really have anything to do with Jesus.

So he was nailed up as a warning to his followers to cool it. And they did. If it wasn't for Peter and Paul, who revised the stories to build a loose church, he would have likely been forgotten as a failed mystic who wanted to be King of the Jews.

Originally posted by Nohup
It's pretty well documented in the Gospel of Mark that Jesus was crucified because he was a demon-casting sorcerer and necromancer who came to believe that he was greater than that other famous sorcerer, King Solomon.

He became a public nuisance by forcibly expelling the money lenders from the Temple (why not?, since is was 'his' temple), and generally acting insane and doing questionably horrible things like raising people from the dead. Even his own followers started believe he was either possessed or crazy.

He developed a relatively large following because of his demon-aided miracles, and came to be viewed by the Romans and Jews as a potential threat. There was already a lot of grumbling about a revolt going on, and Jesus was not helping. That would be the Jesus you read about in Luke. Fifty years after the crucifixion there was a failed revolt, but it didn't really have anything to do with Jesus.

So he was nailed up as a warning to his followers to cool it. And they did. If it wasn't for Peter and Paul, who revised the stories to build a loose church, he would have likely been forgotten as a failed mystic who wanted to be King of the Jews.

Ummm, claiming Jesus's miracles were "demon-aided" is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. At this point I'd encourage you to seek forgiveness for claiming such.

reply to post by JPhish

Are you seriously saying that you’re glad this man was killed? Is this a circumstance in which the ends justifies the means? Perhaps i'm misinterpreting you here, but it just strikes me as unsympathetic. (pun intended)

I’d never wish anyone to suffer or die for my benefit . . .

The cross was not tragic - the disobedience in the Garden that made it necessary was. I'm sorry it was necessary. But yes I'm absolutely ecstatic about it. IT WAS NOT A TRAGEDY - that's a error of humanism. The cross was great victory - sin and death was defeated. God had it planned to redeem mankind and Satan took the bait like a chump. It was laid out in Genesis chapter 3 - God carried out his plan and we all can win too- as long as you accept Christ and his sacrifice for you.

And BTW - he rose 3 days later - so death where is thy sting?



[edit on 8/27/2008 by Bigwhammy]

the Romans crucified him because he was 'one' in an almost continual parade of insurrectionists and messiahs ... who the Jewish Priests and the Roman overlords considered dangerous to their authority.


being both an proclaimed 'son of man' and the implied thinly veiled 'son of god'...he (also including the wider meaning 'them') was obviously using a form of hidden meaning/deception upon the masses... for what personal reason I do not know--->

perhaps this carnal individual was only trying to altruistically motivate the downtrodden Jews/Hebrews on (in his view) a 'different' level.


the man, ultimately, had a death wish

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Ummm, claiming Jesus's miracles were "demon-aided" is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. At this point I'd encourage you to seek forgiveness for claiming such.

All I can do is suggest that you read Gospel of Mark, Chapter 3, and the Gospel of Luke, Chapter 11, in particular. When accused of using the demon Be'elzebub to cast out other demons, Jesus essentially responds, "So what if I am? I'm using this demon to 'divide and conquer' the power of Satan." It did not go over very well with some people.

It's all right there. Unless you have some sort of problem with the plain word of the Gospels.

Originally posted by Nohup

All I can do is suggest that you read ... and the Gospel of Luke, Chapter 11, in particular. When accused of using the demon Be'elzebub to cast out other demons, Jesus essentially responds, "So what if I am? ...

i went ahead & re-read that Luke 11:15-19 (or there abouts)

the take you have on the verses...is something that may apply to you and whomever you can convince.
But that "so what if i am" interpetation is way out in left field...

no sensible reader of the verses would claim that was said.. or could be the intent or implication of what he, Jesus or whomever, is alleged to have said.
No, he (Jesus)...hit the accusers with 'Logic'
which nulled out their prostatations ---that He (Jesus) himself must be from demons, i.e.; Belzeebub..for him (Jesus) to have that much 'power'


sorry, your stand don't hold water, imho


thanks,