Why was jesus crucified?

Well I guess there will always be differences in opinion on that, as there has been for the last 2000 years. Makes for a good debate.

Originally posted by 4x4fun
Well I guess there will always be differences in opinion on that, as there has been for the last 2000 years. Makes for a good debate.

"Opinion"? Would you care for me to link the verses? I haven't stated anything from my "opinion".

Fact: There are over 300 Messianic prophesies in the OT.

Fact: Fundamental Christianity views the OT as the Word of God.

I didn't correct your errors out of spite, but out of a desire for precision in the thread. I meant no offense.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
When I say "we", I mean fundamental Christianity. Not some "Christian" cult.

I would say that Fundamental Christianity is a cult or sect of the Christian religion.

Just like Catholicism, Jehovah's Witness and Anglicanism.

Put one follower of each sect into a room together and the only thing they will agree on is that they are in a room together.

BTW ... which "Bible" do the Fundamentalist Christians prefer?

Is it the King James?

And what does the King James say about Jesus and crucifixion?

Originally posted by Horza

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
When I say "we", I mean fundamental Christianity. Not some "Christian" cult.

I would say that Fundamental Christianity is a cult or sect of the Christian religion.

Just like Catholicism, Jehovah's Witness and Anglicanism.

Put one follower of each sect into a room together and the only thing they will agree on is that they are in a room together.

BTW ... which "Bible" do the Fundamentalist Christians prefer?

Is it the King James?

And what does the King James say about Jesus and crucifixion?

You're welcome to say whatever you wish.

"Catholicism, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Anglicans" have practices not in scripture. I find a problem with that.

KJV:

John 19:16 Then delivered he [Pilate] him [Jesus] therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.

John 19:17 And he [Jesus] bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:

John 19:18 Where they crucified him [Jesus], and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.

John 19:19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.

John 19:20 This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.

John 19:21 Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews.

John 19:22 Pilate answered, What I have written I have written.

John 19:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout.

Hope that clarifies things for you.

reply to post by Horza


excellent post Horza. That site makes some valid points

Originally posted by Michael Pait
i was wondering because all the heavy metals dipict jesus as some dark figure.

Funny about that. I personally doubt he was crucified at all.

The amount of "Gods" in different cultures around the world that were crucified, and born on December 25th is staggering.

Originally posted by 4x4fun
Then there is the "Book of Morman" which the Mormans consider to be their Bible.

Just to clarify and I hope you don't take offence but Mormons (or "Latter day Saints" as they prefer to be called) do not consider the "Book of Mormon" to be their bible. They consider the "Book of Mormon" to be another testament of Jesus Christ.

The King James Version of the Bible, they consider to be their Bible, which consists of the Old and New Testament.

Therefore to the "Latter day Saints" both books testify of Jesus Christ. The difference is one is set in the Ancient America's and the other is set in the Middle East (Eygpt, Israel etc).

To the OP:

It was part of the plan. Only someone who was perfect and sinless could die in order to break the bonds of death and for us to be able to repent of our sins and be forgiven of them. People will interpret how they view or portray Jesus in many ways. The only way that you can know who and what he stood for is by researching about his life yourself. In that way you can form your own opinion and understand the truth from distortions. I hope that makes some sense.

MW31

It's been said and proven that it is better to burn out then fade away. Think about it in modern terms. What would be the eventuality of Elvis if he kept getting fatter and stupider? Would Kerk Cobian have the following he does today if he became a nasty strung out herroin burn out? Those that make a mark on society, can often be lost in time if they live a full life.

It was the dramatic nature of the painful death, and reserection, that carried the name of "Jesus" through the Age.

I'd like to point out that the coming of the "Christ" is a two stage event. The first event set up the stage for the second coming, really the true unmasking of the next lesson in spiritual understanding.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Hi. Just for good natured debate, I would like you to link 300 verses in the original "Old Testament" otherwise known as the "Torah", which conclusively prophecy that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah.
Please be sure to include the actual text of the verse you are refering to, aswell as chapter and number in your reply, so those without a reference can see for themselves.

If you can do this then you just might turn every Jewish man and woman in Jerusalem and elsewhere into a Christian, including me .

Stop there for a minute, and let me clarify something. I'm not Jewish, but my faith is in the "Torah".

As far as the "Old Testament" goes, if Christians believe the "Torah" to be the word of God, then why aren't it's commandments observed? And why is it not called the "Torah", but instead is called the "Old Testament" which implies that it is not applicable, dismissed, or done away with?

I look forward to your intellectual and enlightening response.

Originally posted by 4x4fun
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Hi. Just for good natured debate, I would like you to link 300 verses in the original "Old Testament" otherwise known as the "Torah", which conclusively prophecy that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah.
Please be sure to include the actual text of the verse you are refering to, aswell as chapter and number in your reply, so those without a reference can see for themselves.

I cannot include the text because my post would be deleted by the mods for it's length, but Here is a link that includes all 365 prophecies about the messiah.

If you can do this then you just might turn every Jewish man and woman in Jerusalem and elsewhere into a Christian, including me

.

I don't think that will be possible until the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ at the end of the tribulation, they are looking for him to defeat the antichrist and set up his 1,000 year reign on Earth. Which will happen of course, but because virtually all Jews were illiterate at the time of Jesus's birth and life, the Jews had to rely on the corrupt Pharisees for their "truth" about the Messiah. They saw Jesus as a MAJOR threat to their power, and influence, and money. They told of his 2nd coming, not 1st. Jesus was furious with the Pharisees.

Stop there for a minute, and let me clarify something. I'm not Jewish, but my faith is in the "Torah".

Point noted. At least we are worshiping the same God.

As far as the "Old Testament" goes, if Christians believe the "Torah" to be the word of God, then why aren't it's commandments observed? And why is it not called the "Torah", but instead is called the "Old Testament" which implies that it is not applicable, dismissed, or done away with?

When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23-25; Ephesians 2:15). In place of the Old Testament law, we are under the law of Christ (Galatians 6:2) which is to, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments” (Matthew 22:37-40). If we do these two things, we will be fulfilling all that Christ wants for us to do, “This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3).

Now, we honor the Law, but we also admit that it is impossible to keep the law for salvation, none of us are God, only Jesus fulfilled the law perfectly. It says "To fail the law in 1 part its to fail the entire law." That is why before Christ God commanded animal sacrifice, once God sent his son to live a blameless life and die for our sins there was no longer a need for animal sacrifice. What Abraham did on Mt. Moriah with his son was an example of what God would do with His beloved Son Jesus Christ. Now those justified in Gods eyes are those who accept His son's sacrifice on the cross as payment for their sins. Blameless death and shed blood needs to be sacrificed to God for remission of sins, only God Himself had the power to take the sins of the world on himself and "nail them to the cross" basically.

In essence, we are no longer justified by the Law, but by faith in Jesus Christ, we are justified by grace alone. Excellent
Read here.

I look forward to your intellectual and enlightening response.

I'll tell you a little known secret, a professor of statistics at MIT conducted an experiment where he did a probability study of only 8 prophecies concerning Jesus coming true that were written hundreds of years before His birth. He used only prophecies that Jesus Himself couldn't control, I.E. born of a virgin, born in Bethlehem, born in the line of David, et cetra. And in order for 8 of those to have come true in 1 man written hundreds of years before His birth would be the same probability as filling the state of Texas with quarters 1 foot deep, writing an "X" on one quarter and randomly inserting it into the pile somewhere, and a blindfolded person selecting it on the first try. There aren't 8 prophecies concerning Jesus Christ as the messiah in the Torah, there are 365. :O

And, i truly appreciate you kindness. God Bless you.

reply to post by Michael Pait


It was a political execution. Jesus was a direct descendant of David and literally could be referred to as "King of the Jews". There could not be a king chosen by the Romans and a person who could actually claim the title walking around. Jesus' activism at the time also cost him his life.
The saving our souls came about around the 4th Century AD when it was voted at the Council of Nivea.

Originally posted by Lantian
No.. It was because the Romans did that to people.. Nothing odd about it.. For the time period.

yea but is he in heaven or eternal damnation?

Originally posted by Michael Pait

Originally posted by Lantian
No.. It was because the Romans did that to people.. Nothing odd about it.. For the time period.

yea but is he in heaven or eternal damnation?

In heaven, he was without sin. That is what condemns souls to hell...

unforgiven sin.

For claiming to be God.

Which was in fact true, bu they killed him anyway.

Thank God they did, now my sins are forgiven.

He's coming back VERY soon. This time he is not going to give in.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Of course we are all free to say what ever we want ... well kind of ...

Quoting some passages of your bible doesn't clear anything up at all.

We can read your quotes ... and then we can read something like this:

www.answering-christianity.com...

www.answering-christianity.com...

and then we are back to square one!

And honestly, I don't think that any of these centuries old religious texts can considered reliable.

So it comes down to faith and belief ... and I am not debating with you over that!

But maybe, if you will be willing to read through the links I have provided, read them properly in an analytical way, you may gain a little more insight into the complete picture and not just one small piece of the jigsaw puzzle.

And also just to make clear ... I am not saying that Jesus was crucified or that Jesus was not crucified.

But you are saying that he was ... and others are saying that he wasn't.

And in the context of this thread, that is quite an important issue to address.

reply to post by JPhish


Hi JPhish,

Interesting isn't it?

I have never really looked at Islam before ... but maybe now I will ... especially interesting in the Islam v Christianity v Judaism context as far as Jesus goes.

One guy with 3 different lives ...

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
For claiming to be God.

Which was in fact true, bu they killed him anyway.

Thank God they did, now my sins are forgiven.

He's coming back VERY soon. This time he is not going to give in.

I have a problem with this ... I really do ...

In effect you are saying that you can live your life, to an extent, in anyway you see fit and that you will be still be given the reward of eternal life just because you believe that Jesus was the son of a god.

So are you saying that all these pedophiliac Catholic priests, the Christians that tried to ethnically cleanse Serbia of Muslims and ethnic Albanians, the Christians that stole a generation of Australian Aboriginal and put them into orphanages, the Christians that invaded a Iraq and killed millions of civilians, the Spanish Inquisition!!! will be given the reward of eternal life because they believed in your god and prayed to him and worshipped him and read the bible and preached and converted others???

Really?

I am serious ... I would like a really good answer for this one please ...

This is the kind of blind faith that has put our world and our lives through so much pain and suffering over the ages.

edit - spelling

[edit on 25/8/08 by Horza]

Hey ATS-ers,

Great thread…well informed posts…but a word of caution please…be careful, when you speak SO confidently…there is a ‘deceiver’ out there!!!

2Cor 4:4 says he’s out for you!


The phrase “god of this world” (or “god of this age”) indicates that Satan is the major influence on the mind-set expressed by the ideals, opinions, goals, hopes and views of the majority of people. His areas of influence also encompass the world’s philosophies, education, and commerce. The thoughts, ideas, speculations and false religions of the world are under his control and have sprung from his lies and deceptions.
Similar titles are found elsewhere in Scripture concerning Satan. Satan is called the "prince of the power of the air" in Ephesians 2:2. He is called the "ruler of this world" in John 12:31. These titles, and many more attributed to Satan throughout Scripture, signify his capabilities. To say, for example, that Satan is the "prince of the power of the air" is to signify that in some way he rules over the world and the people in it.
This is not to say that he rules the world completely; only God does this. But it does mean that God, in His infinite wisdom, has allowed Satan to operate in this world (within the boundaries God has set for him) and has allowed Satan to operate with an agenda. When the Bible says Satan has power over the world, it must be made clear that God has given him domain over unbelievers alone. Believers are no longer under the rule of Satan (Colossians 1:13). Unbelievers, on the other hand, are caught "in the snare of the devil" (2 Timothy 2:26), lie in the "power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19), and are in bondage to Satan (Ephesians 2:2).
So, when the Bible says that Satan is the "god of this world," it is not saying that he has ultimate authority. It is conveying the idea that Satan rules over the unbelieving world in a specific way. In the case of 2 Corinthians 4:4, the unbeliever follows Satan's agenda. According to 2 Corinthians 4:4, the "god of this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ." Satan's agenda includes pushing a false philosophy onto the unbelieving world—a false philosophy that blinds the unbeliever from the truth of the Gospel. Satan’s philosophies are the fortresses in which people are imprisoned, needing to be set free and brought captive to Christ in obedience to the truth.
An example of a false philosophy might be a belief that man can earn God's favor by a certain act or acts. In fact, earning eternal life is a predominate theme around the world. Earning God's favor by works, however, is contrary to biblical revelation. Man cannot work to earn God's favor; eternal life is a free gift (see Ephesians 2:8-9). And that free gift is available through Jesus Christ and Him alone (John 3:16; 14:6). You may ask why does mankind simply not receive the free gift that enables them to truly be called children of God (John 1:12)? The answer is that Satan—the god of this world—pushes a false philosophy onto the world. Satan sets the agenda, the unbelieving world follows, and mankind continues to be deceived. It is no wonder that Scripture calls Satan a liar (John 8:44). Source: www.gotquestions.org...

reply to post by Horza

In effect you are saying that you can live your life, to an extent, in anyway you see fit and that you will be still be given the reward of eternal life just because you believe that Jesus was the son of a god.

Absolutely not, Satan admits Jesus Christ is LORD as well. What saves a man is whom that man serves. Simply admitting that Christ is Lord is meaningless if that person doesn't serve Him as Lord.

"Why do you say Lord, Lord but do not do as I say?"

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Horza

 

In effect you are saying that you can live your life, to an extent, in anyway you see fit and that you will be still be given the reward of eternal life just because you believe that Jesus was the son of a god.



Absolutely not, Satan admits Jesus Christ is LORD as well. What saves a man is whom that man serves. Simply admitting that Christ is Lord is meaningless if that person doesn't serve Him as Lord.

"Why do you say Lord, Lord but do not do as I say?"

ok then ... how does one "serve" the Christian god?



[edit on 25/8/08 by Horza]