Is it wrong to despise alcoholics?

Something that often gets overlooked in the argument over whether or not addiction is a disease is the implication of this concept.

It was revolutionary in 1936 to define alcoholism as a disease because that implied that it could be treated, not because it meant it wasn't the alcoholic's fault that he drank.

The squabbling over blame leaves out this: if you are an alcoholic, there is help available.

Alot of these secondary problems are starting to make sense, I think.

I do not drink but I do have a very bad anger problem, like my father. I also have to admit that I am not very empathetic. As I stated earlier my family never says the words "I love you". I actually feel weird and out of place when I hear other people say that.

Even when my father was dying I could not bring myself to say I loved him. I thought that if I said that I was betraying the way I was raised. The funny (or sad) thing is that I can remember to the date the last time he touched me (not sexual) and that was the last time he beat me.

In the end I respected him and everything he accomplished and I believe that more than anything led to an understanding between us and how we got past what happened.

reply to post by intrepid




The key is that you found something that DID work.


Glad that you didnt end up a tragic statistic like many do, and this Gord person (along with your own willingness) most likely saved your life.


Good to hear a happy ending for a change

Alcohol is absolutely terrific; yet nevertheless, I understand that there is a terrible tendency for weak-willed individuals to commit themselves fully to the stuff, as though it were a daily activity.

Being a young fellow, and only recently having indulged with relish, I can hope that I never feel a 'pull', myself.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Bad analogies and as you talk about logic in the next parapraph then shoudlnt' we use good analogies?

They are not bad analogies. My point, clear and simple, is that different people have different skills and abilities. Just because one person, or a few people, can do something does not mean that anyone can. You can't use the example of a few people who can do something to prove that anyone should be able to do it.

Yes lets stick to logic so if someone can give up with help via rehab and counciling, doesn't that show it's a problem which isn't a disease?

Many diseases are helped by various forms of treatment, and much of that treatment does not involve drugs, surgery, etc. I was recently treated for thoracic outlet syndrome with physical therapy, such as learning exercises, correcting posture, and doing stretches. So, the fact that rehabilitation and counseling (forms of treatment) help would be more inclined to show that it IS a disease, and a treatable one at that.

Sorry i meant the liver, the brain might get more high off of it in an alcoholic,

I meant the brain. And obviously you haven't done any of that research yet, because the differences between the alcoholic brain and the non-alcoholic brain are much, much more than "getting more high off it." Scans have shown that the alcoholic brain is actually physically smaller. I'm really interested to hear how you will pass that off as psychological.

My apologies for wishing you good health i thought you were still drinking or recently quiting. I apologise for wishing you good health and the best of luck

Oh, now, let's not make the appeal to the audience's sympathy TOO obvious. You were not wishing me anything of the sort, you were implying that I wished to argue the point that alcoholism is a disease because I am making excuses for myself.

Maybe i should disregard the expertise of a specialst doctor. YHeah you're right.

For one doctor to have an opinion that differs from the majority is quite common. And quite often they are wrong.

No i'm not failing to see the difference at all and in any way. I just disagree with you.

You've seen drunkards quit drinking. You've seen social drinkers decide they're drinking too much and quit. YOU have decided that these people were alcoholics and were able to quit. Alcoholism is a medical diagnosis which is most clearly determined by MRIs of the brain among other signs and symptoms. So - YOU would be able to tell whether these people you saw quit were really alcoholics how? Did you perhaps get to see their MRIs?

reply to post by capgrup


I don't think it's wrong to despise anybody. We're all entitled to our opinions.

And my opinion is that it is ignorant, and maybe even idiotic, to label alcoholism, drug use or any other addictive behavior as a "disease". All that does is excuses people from having to take responsibility for any negative consequences of their concious decisions. Drinking everyday is a choice (one which, in the interest of full disclosure, I happen to make because I enjoy it). Luekemia is a disease. See the difference?

It's pretty easy to stop using drugs or drinking or whatever. For some drugs, at least there is a real chemical dependancy formed and you'll go through a rather unpleasant withdrawal for a few days (heroin, for example), but it's nothing a capable person can't handle. Diseases, on the other hand, can't be willed away. Which is why you don't give a cancer survivor a stupid little keychain for every month he's managed to avoid going into remission.

So, in conclusion - I don't see any reason to hate all alcoholics, but there is something to be said for having a lowly opinion of those who do not drink because they enjoy it but do so because they feel they must and this behavior negatively impacts their lives. I think those people (along with junkies who say they want to quit but never do) are worthless.

Something you are all forgetting is alcohol withdrawal CAN KILL YOU.

Although, nothing will ever get better until HE wants it to get better. You, or anyone else cannot change that fact. I just had a brother die at 26 years old a few months ago due to a drug overdose. We all knew he had a problem, we all tried to talk to him about it, yet he himself never tried to make himself better, and now I lost one of the most important people in my life.

Try to support him. Show him people care. People who have never went through withdrawal from either alcohol, benzos, or opiates, would NEVER understand the absolute hell that withdrawal is. It is not something he can overcome alone.

I wish you all the best, and hopefully one day he finally sees the damage he is causing. Until that day comes though, things will never change. And to answer your question in the title - no, you should not despise him for his problem. You should feel sorry for him, and his situation, and try to help in anyway you can. When he starts to see how much it is affecting his family members and how much you all care about him, hopefully he decides to try to change his lifestyle.

Originally posted by AntiCensorship
reply to post by capgrup

 

It's pretty easy to stop using drugs or drinking or whatever. For some drugs, at least there is a real chemical dependancy formed and you'll go through a rather unpleasant withdrawal for a few days (heroin, for example), but it's nothing a capable person can't handle.

I can obviously see you have never had to experience withdrawal first hand. DO NOT say that it is something a capable person can handle. I have heard of people committing suicide because of how bad it is. I personally have went to the ER due to the absolute agony when my medication was not delivered on time. Also, people DIE from alcohol withdrawal. Dead. You are extremely uninformed and I only wish you do some research on the topic.

VERY FEW people can stop cold turkey, and even fewer make it through the whole withdrawal.

You say you think people who say they are going to stop, but never do are worthless. You really have a warped perspective and I think you might be surprised how many people are actually addicted to opiate medication. I would not wish it on my WORST enemy. Literally, I would rather get hit by a car and break several bones then go through withdrawal, because that at least is less of a pain.

Again, please educate yourself on the matter and how serious it is.

[edit on 19-8-2008 by deadline527]

Deadline;

You have my sincere condolences on the loss of your brother. Even though this has been extremely difficult for me to go through, I cannot imagine the loss that you are feeling.

alcoholism is bad, but as I know it's mostly because people want to drink away their problems.

The denial is as bad as the problem.

Originally posted by capgrup
Deadline;

You have my sincere condolences on the loss of your brother. Even though this has been extremely difficult for me to go through, I cannot imagine the loss that you are feeling.

He had a problem, and he knew it, but he was unable to stop it was that serious. It gets me so mad when people say "oh, why dont they just stop taking the pills." My brother was a extremely strong and willful person. He was 11 Bravo in the Army, Infantry, and graduated top of his class for the Police Academy. But, he was unable to stop taking his medication even though he knew it was ruining his life. He was in several car accidents, and even hit a PA State Trooper that was parked on the side of the road. This still was not able to get him to stop.

People do NOT understand the sheer agony that comes along when you stop taking something like opiates. It is impossible to have a positive outlook on life, and you only wish that someone would come and take your life away.

He was prescribed his medication by the way, and even took what he was supposed to. He was a legal addict and it killed him. I wish people would understand the severity of withdrawal and how hard it is for people to stop. My brother had to choose between stopping, and death. He died on April 30th, 2008 at 26 years old.

You know, it's interesting to me that all these people in this thread who have little or no long term experience with alcoholics should harbor such apparent hatred (or at least disdain) of them.

If anyone would have a reason to hate an alcoholic, it would be someone like me, who grew up with a dad who was an alcoholic.

My dad had the works. Drunk every night, physically and mentally abusive, abused drugs (legal ones from the doctor, mind you), lost his job, hid vodka and whiskey bottles all over the house and outside, wrecked his car drunk, etc.. We made countless trips to the ER because of him. There were many, many hours, days and weeks of needless worry inflicted by him. He even blacked out and passed out one night and accidentally fell on the dog and killed her. Not to mention the terrible things he did to my mom before I was born. She lost an almost full term baby because of him.

For a long time, I did hate him. I refused to speak to him for years. The sight of him was disgusting to me.

Now that I'm older, I've come to realize that after a certain point in his disease, he probably didn't have a choice. He has been dry for about 4 years, and we have a relationship now, but it's still not that healthy. I wish it could be different, but I'll take what I can get.

I remember once,several years after I'd left home, my dad was so desperate for a drink that he actually downed a liter of Listerene. Now, to all you out there who don't think there's any kind of pathology involved with alcoholism, and think that the choice is entirely up to the alcoholic, well, does a person being so desperate for a drink that they'll drink mouthwash sound as if that person really had a choice in the matter?

By that time, he had the DTs if he quit drinking. He was physically and psychologically dependent on alcohol to function. It was pitiful. He wanted to die, he had wanted that for a long time. In fact, he tried to commit suicide with pills not all too long before the Listerene incident.


He had to be hospitalized to dry out, due to the risk of seizures . Those of you who think it's not a disease realize that for a true alcoholic, it's not as simple as "quitting", don't you?




[edit on 19-8-2008 by chickenshoes]

Originally posted by Grey Magic
alcoholism is bad, but as I know it's mostly because people want to drink away their problems.

The denial is as bad as the problem.

Thats how it starts. People start doing it to take away their problems, but once they become dependent on it... its a whole different story. The dependence alcohol creates on your body is a nightmare. And to think that when you stop drinking and go into withdrawal, you CAN die.

If you see someone who has a problem, please try to help them before they enter the black hole of dependence. It is VERY hard to come out once you are that deep in.. most people die dependent on the drug they wanted to quit.

chickenshoes;

That has to be the oddest name I have seen here. I am happy that you now have some relationship with your father. I just wish that you and your family did not have to go through all of that. Sometimes I think it would just be great to ban alcohol but that wouldnt solve the problem. Besides I cannot dictate my morality on others, but it would be nice.

Originally posted by capgrup
chickenshoes;

That has to be the oddest name I have seen here. I am happy that you now have some relationship with your father. I just wish that you and your family did not have to go through all of that. Sometimes I think it would just be great to ban alcohol but that wouldnt solve the problem. Besides I cannot dictate my morality on others, but it would be nice.

If you ban alcohol, think of all the even worse things that would come from it. Gangs like during prohibition, even more overcrowded jails, lost money due to the inability to tax it, increased crime, all while people are still making it themselves. It would cause more harm then good, people will just abuse something else if they cant get their hands on alcohol.

I watched a report on FOX (yes, I know, lol) about how middle school children actually find it easier to get prescription pills then it is to get cigarettes or alcohol.

If they cant find one thing to chase away their problems, they will just find another.

Originally posted by deadline527
I watched a report on FOX (yes, I know, lol) about how middle school children actually find it easier to get prescription pills then it is to get cigarettes or alcohol.

If they cant find one thing to chase away their problems, they will just find another.

Yup, I asked my oldest that question about 4 years ago. He said that he could get smokes, a bunch of other things I can't name because of the T&C but the hardest thing to get was money. He was 13-14 at the time. That crap is out there, don't be fooled.

deadline;

Yeah, it is pretty bad out there. I wish it were easy to do, but I can't blame everyone else or punish them for the problems of another person.

you should not ever dispise anyone my friend

i am an alcoholic as im sure trere are many here
kinda ignorant thread

Originally posted by bugs_n_recovery
you should not ever dispise anyone my friend

i am an alcoholic as im sure trere are many here
kinda ignorant thread

Dude, seriously, read the thread. There's some gems in it.

From one alkie to another.

Buggs;

Sorry you feel that this an ignorant thread, but I did ask for comments and advice. Everyone else has pretty much given some reason for their position and I would like to hear yours.

Regardless if you are a recovering or active addict, why is it wrong for me to feel these things?