Is it wrong to despise alcoholics?

reply to post by capgrup

in my opinion, no, you are not wrong, but alcoholism is not "learned" in the sense that other behaviors are...it is a didease and there are obviously genetics involved here...who knows why one family member is stricken with it and others are not...but you could go to ALANON so that you could get a better understanding of your brothers illness not even for his benefit; but for your own...it is clearly upsetting to you that he behaves this way. there is nothing that you can do for or about him...except to learn that it is not your problem and to be able to accept him as he is. he has to seek his own help. ALANON may be able to help you. good luck & God Bless...

Alcoholism is only a disease in the US, every other country in the world realises its a choice. Why can't people take personal responsibility for their own actions and decisions. We have fat pigs claiming they are morbidly obese for every possible reason except that they eat enough for 5 people and are too lazy to exercise. Now there are people who are too feebleminded to exercise any restraint with alcohol and instead of being confronted about it, they are coddled and told that its a disease beyond their control. Here's an idea, stop drinking.

If alcoholism is a disease then being a crack fiend or a meth addict is a disease too. So is being a christian or having a tattoo or a body piercing. The US is becoming a country of pussies, grow a pair and take responsibility for your choices.

Originally posted by capgrup
I am not sure if this topic should be here. If not feel free to move it.

I have been thinking about this lately and I still have not been able to come to a decision. The problem is because of a family member who is an alcoholic. I know that this disease runs in families and my family has had its share of this problem.

My older brother is killing himself slowly. He has been in detox once and rehab twice (he never finshed his last). He has been busted for D.U.I and lost his job of 18 years, but yet he still drinks. It has gotten to the point that I cannot stand to even look at him, much less speak to him.

I understand that this was "learned" from my father, just as he learned it from his. My grandfather died young and alone. My father gave it up cold turkey and was sober for 21 years before he died. He never went to meetings or church or anything like that.

At what point is it alright for me to remove myself from trying to help and attempting to be understanding. I know that I will never accept this behavior. I am at the end of my desire to help. Is this wrong?

Any advice or comments are welcome.

Well, welcome this. You are a very selfish person. How do I know? By your posts, unless you're lying left and right. Guess what, you're an alcoholic, too.

Think about it. It runs in families, it's genetic, it's a disease. Just listen to yourself and you will figure it out. It's amazing how blind we are to our own thoughts... and knowledge.

If you don't want to support your brother then don't. Why come on some forum asking for help? Are you so depraved of family and friends that you need the support of people on the Internet?

Yes, you are. YOU are an alcoholic, too. That is why you are here. That is why you are depraved.

I see right through you.

I am an alcoholic.

Welcome home.

NO, your feelings are valid.
However, you must remember it is a disease.
I have delt with alcoholism also in my g=family.
It was devastating.
I am still dealing with the consrquenses.
But educate yourself on this and also drug abuse.
I hope things turn out ok for you.

Originally posted by Death_Kron
reply to post by sc2099

 

Thats absolute bo**ocks, to say that people in a situation as described by the OP don't want help? Have you ever been in a situation like that yourself? Do you know what it feels like to be addicted to something and even though you know its wrong you can't break free?

Severe the ties to his brother? And what, let him kill himself with a long, slow, painful and lonely death while he drinks himself to death?

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink, my friend. The OP has said that he has spent years coddling his brother and he is still on the bottle. Can you explain to me how if this is what his brother needed how he isn't sober yet? The OP is depriving himself of life because he is so upset about his brother. He needs to live his own life and not worry about what he can't fix, and especially not worry about what he has tried to fix and is unfixable.

I'm not condoning alcoholics or drug users however you need to realise that some people are not total losers, their heads are screwed up and they need guidance and support, not riddicule and advoidance.

Yes, to a point. But if they do not really want the help they will not lift themselves out of the spiral of addiction. If the OP's brother wanted to stop drinking he already would have, but like you said, he prefers being drunk to dealing with his problems.

Obviously, from what your saying you have never been or never seen a desperate person at their wits end, who doesnt know what to do next and can't see a viable option.

Your basically telling the OP to let his brother commit suicide! You really haven't got a clue. I'm sure you would think a lot different if it was a family member of your own.


[edit on 20/8/08 by Death_Kron]

Actually, my mother and father in law are alcoholics, so I know all too well the situation the OP is dealing with. The OP cannot live his brother's life for him. He cannot force him to stop drinking. All he can do is offer support when he stops. Supporting him while he is still drinking is just enabling him.

If someone is determined to kill themselves do you really think you can stop them? Do you really think the OP should waste his every waking moment attempting to keep the (metaphorical) gun out of his brother's mouth? He can't, and he shouldn't condemn himself to so miserable an existence that will ultimately end in failure. People will ultimately do what they want, even if they have to wait until you turn your back.

[edit on 8/22/2008 by sc2099]

I'm an alchoholic,haven't had a drink in 14 yrs,after graduating college I was given a position of power and didn't realize at first how much others relide on me,plus the nature of the buisness,would take clients out for lunch have about 5 cocktails,then meet one after work at a barThis went on for a good 25 years,it took my then wife saying she would leave with the kids to get me to finally stop,for those who say it isn't a disease have never been in an alchoholics shoes ,you go thru withdrawals and you pretty much have to find a new circle of friendsmy father in law was a successful buisness man stayed sober for years,then something set him off,we found him in a broken down trailer by the Salton Sea,didn't even have a pair of shoes,tried as we did to try to keep him from drinking he eventually drank himself to death so for all the pseudo psycologist's should do research on a topic 1st ,in the right hands alchohol is as bad as a heroine addiction,I know for the rest of my life I can't drink,and to be quite honest when I think of some of the things I have done that alone cures me

smurf;

I read your post awhile back but needed sometime to write a responsible reply.

Who is more selfish? The person who tries to help or the one who is always putting that person in that position.

Who is more selfish? The one who gets up at 3am to find their family member stumbling down the road or the one who does not care about what they are doing to their family and friends.

Who is more selfish? The family member who constantly dreads the phone ringing at night hoping their loved one has not killed themselves or someone else or the one who constantly thinks they have the right to endanger society.

Who is more selfish? The person who does ask for advice or the individual who calls that person "depraved" for trying to help.

I did ask for advice and comments but I never expected someone to have the unmitigated gaul to call me a liar. You must be one bitter person (or you might think better person) to attack anyone trying to help, much less in an area that might be of benefit to yourself.

It is definate in your post that you are trying to cast other people in a bad light because you apparently never understood nor cared for what you have done to yourself or anyone else.

Hell, I don't even understand what you meant by claiming I am an alcoholic. I haven't had so much as a beer in 15 years and I won't even try to interpret "Welcome Home". I know your world is pretty rosy looking through that colored bottle you see life through. For christ sake you sound just like my brother and that is what I "dispise".

reply to post by sc2099


Wrong. He does not need to offer him the support when he stops drinking, he NEEDS to offer him the support to help him stop drinking! The man needs help, you can't not give it him.

To imply that he is determined to kill himself by alcohol is ridiculous! By the text book definition I'm an alcoholic, however it doesnt ruin my life or control me. But I do appreciate how that can be so with certain people.

I understand the brother is at his wits end and is most likely very fed up and annoyed but he can't simply walk away.

You don't do that with vunerable people, no matter how hard it is or how long it takes, you carry on. I would do anything for the people I love, I would literally kill for them. Walking away isn't an option.

If your that hard faced that you can do that, then fine fair play to you. However, I would never walk away from someone that needed my help, or needed help in general.

And if I'm the person that provided their guidance and support then, you know what I'll feel better about myself.

Theres plenty of idiots in the world and plenty of people who don't deserve my help, but in this case I truly believe that the brother the OP mentions is in need of help not dismall and hatred.

Read my previous posts, you'll gain an understanding of how I think, but in a situation like this I'm behaving totally different, because I'v been there.

How can you walk away and let your own brother, your own blood kill himself? You can't!

I know its frustrating and it feels impossible at times, but you can't walk away. Everyone needs somebody!

I'm not trying to be insensitive but NO addiction is a disease. Drugs can and do cause physiological withdrawal symptoms if they are not continually interjected into the physiology of the life-form that desires their effects. But this physiological urge can be overcome quite easily, and some times painfully, by just NOT SUBMITTING to the physical urge. It is a mental process/problem and no one can force any one to not take drugs. It has to be the person taking the drug that want to change their "mind" about ingestion of the drug. If they don't want too then .... oh well I guess they'll die.

-Euclid

[edit on 22-8-2008 by euclid]

Capgrup:

The real problem here is that you are asking these questions in the wrong place. You don't know who anyone here is or what experience they really have. Some of your replies could be teenage kids who think this is all hilariously funny, and many of the posters here are blatantly displaying their ignorance of the subject.

Go to a few Al-Anon meetings and pick up some brochures. It will cost you nothing but a little time, and you don't even have to tell them who you are Even if you see people you know, they will protect your anonymity and not tell anyone they saw you there. Listen to some people who have been through exactly what you are going through and will tell you the truth based on real personal experience. Go to to a couple of open AA speaker meetings and listen to the alcoholics' stories. Read the brochures and pamphlets they will give you for free. And there's often free coffee and donuts, too.

If you can't handle that, go to Al-Anon and AA's website and do some reading. You can even download free recordings of meetings and speaker stories. Borrow the "Big Book" of AA and the 12 & 12 of Al-Anon from the library and read them.

Alcoholics Anonymous and Al-Anon have the highest success rates of anyone dealing with alcoholism. They know what they're talking about, and they have the results and outcome statistics to back them up. Go and get the "411" from the horse's mouth and then decide what to do. Don't make decisions about your family and your life based on advice from faceless strangers on the internet.

If you need help finding meetings or locating websites, send me a U2U and I will help you.

reply to post by Death_Kron


So what you're saying is that you believe the OP should spend the rest of his life being a crutch for his brother, who has shown no signs of even wanting to stop drinking. You expect him to take all the calls at 3am, upsetting his own job, family, and life to prop up someone who has no intention of being sober. You expect him to spend his money and his time coddling a grown man. That's beyond stupid. It's insane.

The OP deserves a life of his own. His brother has a life and is currently throwing it away with both hands. The OP should not waste his life trying to gather up the broken pieces of his brother's, only to have him knock them out of his hands again. He has already spent years doing this and clearly it has done no good. It's time to walk away.

It's great to stick with your family, but there is absolutely nothing the OP can do for his brother that he has not already done. It's stupid to waste one more second on a man who doesn't want help.

Originally posted by capgrup
smurf;

I read your post awhile back but needed sometime to write a responsible reply.

Who is more selfish? The person who tries to help or the one who is always putting that person in that position.

Who is more selfish? The one who gets up at 3am to find their family member stumbling down the road or the one who does not care about what they are doing to their family and friends.

Who is more selfish? The family member who constantly dreads the phone ringing at night hoping their loved one has not killed themselves or someone else or the one who constantly thinks they have the right to endanger society.

Who is more selfish? The person who does ask for advice or the individual who calls that person "depraved" for trying to help.

I did ask for advice and comments but I never expected someone to have the unmitigated gaul to call me a liar. You must be one bitter person (or you might think better person) to attack anyone trying to help, much less in an area that might be of benefit to yourself.

It is definate in your post that you are trying to cast other people in a bad light because you apparently never understood nor cared for what you have done to yourself or anyone else.

Hell, I don't even understand what you meant by claiming I am an alcoholic. I haven't had so much as a beer in 15 years and I won't even try to interpret "Welcome Home". I know your world is pretty rosy looking through that colored bottle you see life through. For christ sake you sound just like my brother and that is what I "dispise".

Being completely honest, you just answered every question yourself.

And just so it "might" sink into your head, if your brother stopped drinking today and didn't have so much as a beer in 15 years, would he be an alcoholic?

Good luck to you. More importantly, good luck to your brother.

I feel I must edit this post, so here it is.

No one here can give you the "right" advice as to what you should do. Only you can determine what is right for you. If you choose to "let him go" that is YOUR decision. You can't fall back later and say, "well, people on the ATS forum suggested that is what I should do." It's all you. If you choose to abandon your brother, and you later regret it, it's all you, and you will have to live with it.

I know you are just looking for a way out. We all look for ways out of difficult, heart-wrenching situations.

No advice is right or wrong, it's simply advice. You have to live with your decision, not anyone here or anyone else. Make that decision, and be absolutely sure you won't regret it.

Again, good luck to you and your brother and your family.

[edit on 23-8-2008 by DingleberrySmurf]

reply to post by sc2099


I never said that and I agree with you entirely that no, his brother should not spend the rest of his life waiting on hand and foot for his brother.

However, I think he should at least try to get his brother help, we don't know the specifics and correct me if I'm wrong but the OP didn't mention whether his brother actually wants to quit or not?

As I said we don't know the specifics but your generalising the OP's brother and stereotyping him, making him out to be the publics oppinion of an "alcoholic"

What I'm trying to say is that sometimes, most of the time, people addicted to alcoholic aren't complete waste of spaces. The majority turned to alcohol because it was the only way they could cope. People might say alcohol isn't addictive, but it is VERY addictive...

Even tramps or homeless people drinking I can understand, theyre drinking probably to overcome the pain of well being homeless and whatever situation arose to cause this.

I do not however sympathise with these people as they should be making an attempt to better themselves and theyre lives. Not sitting in an alleyway getting smashed.

Originally posted by capgrup
I am not sure if this topic should be here. If not feel free to move it.

I have been thinking about this lately and I still have not been able to come to a decision. The problem is because of a family member who is an alcoholic. I know that this disease runs in families and my family has had its share of this problem.

My older brother is killing himself slowly. He has been in detox once and rehab twice (he never finshed his last). He has been busted for D.U.I and lost his job of 18 years, but yet he still drinks. It has gotten to the point that I cannot stand to even look at him, much less speak to him.

I understand that this was "learned" from my father, just as he learned it from his. My grandfather died young and alone. My father gave it up cold turkey and was sober for 21 years before he died. He never went to meetings or church or anything like that.

At what point is it alright for me to remove myself from trying to help and attempting to be understanding. I know that I will never accept this behavior. I am at the end of my desire to help. Is this wrong?

Any advice or comments are welcome.

there often comes a point where we want to weigh our love for this person against the pain and turmoil they cause us. i think it would be inhuman not to think this way at least on some level. but he did not learn this behavior. if he is a true alcoholic, and it sure sounds like it, he is addicted to the chemical and both his brain and body tell him that he is dying as it starts to leave his body. on a subconscious level he knows he "needs" it to get back to "normal." it is not his fault and he should not be blamed or despised for it.
abandoned and shunned, that is a judgement call. but dont hate someone for an addiction. alcoholism is way more than a learned habbit.

reply to post by capgrup


I highly recommend Al Anon. I have benefited greatly from this program. It helps you learn how to best take care of yourself around an active alcoholic, whether it's a family member, a friend or a spouse.

My sobriety date is 01/28/93. I had my first drink at seven years of age. I had my last drink at 43 years of age. I've been married and divorced twice and I have three children that I never see. I quit drinking because of prescribed medication that reacts badly with alcohol of any kind or quantity. I know, I tried the combination to find out.

Don't despise the alcoholic but please remember that they must WANT to quit. They can't help themselves without outside assistance. If they leave rehab, put them back into another tougher rehab. If they go to AA, make them go to AA every night. It may sound severe but you or another responsible person must literally sit on top of the alcoholic until the drinking cycle is broken. Psych counselling is not out of order, to find out "why" the person drinks in the first place.

You have a long rough road ahead of you and hopefully for the alcoholic involved, you have the desire and stamina to finish the journey.

start.rant...
I have alcoholic family members as well. One with numerous DUIs and jail time that stem from his actions while drunk. The other two are in bad health and both have been to jail at least once this year due to alcohol abuse. I guess I am the strong one to be fighting this disease. Hurts to see that now more than ever I come across alcoholics, all walks of life to.

I am nearly passed the point of removing myself from it(well the parts when I am asked to give resources I don't even have) and trying to understand. Ok, I understand two of them abuse themselves after a family tragedy, their PTSD is so bad and their addictive personalities/mental illness/pre disposed alcohol genetics/messed up priority-depression/anxiety, allow them to believe this is right(or so it seems). The other one started real young as an alcoholic and has steadily continued this through life. It's amazing she is still alive. Hers seems more due to the genetic part and a few life tragedies, but herself put into the situations due to being an alcoholic. All of these people mentioned have also had issues with drugs. Not to mentioned ridiculous hardships that if they were sober may not happen! I don't blame the alcohol or drugs either, I blame them for their actions, the chemicals just make their bad judgments on life the worst possible-to say void of judgment and cognition.

...end.rant.

Other than knowing that much and trying to help them, there's not much I can do for people who do not want help. You'd figure after the one had kids, things would change, but they changed only slightly, he still has been abusing-same with the girlfriend.


So is it wrong to 'give up' on them? I think some may say yes, others no. I know, being pre disposed as I am, that I fight it and beat it. I just wish they had the will power and non excuses. As I've been through the same stuff they have! But there's only soooo much one can endure...
You don't have to accept it, but rather, let them know you'll be there in the situation you can help them with, but they will have to learn to help themselves in the end.

[edit on 24-8-2008 by dreamingawake]

Alcoholism is not a disease. People need to grow up and take responsibility for their own actions instead of convincing themselves they're helpless and looking for others (usually people that merely want their money) to take care of their problems for them.

The first step to recovering, in my opinion, is admitting you have a problem and (here's the clincher) EMPOWERING yourself. You're not helpless and your mind in a powerful thing-- use it!

People have gotten so lazy and have become used to making excuses for themselves instead of taking action. I speak from experience, I've been there.



[edit on 25-8-2008 by Ripperella]

I am an alcoholic.

I can tell you that unequivocally, nobody who is not alcoholic will be able to help you understand what your brother is going through. As far as all these folks who want to claim "alcoholism is not a disease, alcoholics are lazy and stupid etc etc etc", they have no clue what they are talking about. The way an alcoholic's body processes alcohol and the physical allergic reaction is unique in alcoholics, and not something that can be comprehended by a "normal drinker". There are mental twists in the alcoholic mind as well, but the physical differences have been scientifically proven and documented.

Your brother is never going to stop drinking until he is ready and WANTS to stop. Usually he will want to stop during his moments of demoralization and self pity, likely on the morning after a "bender". This is the time that he should be talked to about his problem, but not with anger, that will not help anything.

There is very effective help for people who want to quit. It only works once they want to quit, which only happens in short intervals during the initial stages of alcoholism. Once everything in life is lost, sometimes not until life itself is lost, can an alcoholic begin to have a real desire to stop.

If you really care about your brother, you should buy a big book (the Big Blue Alcoholics Anonymous book), read it yourself, and then put it within his reach. Leave it laying in his bathroom maybe, or something like that. He should have the opportunity to read it when he is hurting and alone. It is a very good read for alcoholics and normal drinkers alike, there is much in it to learn. He may not receive it well, but once he has it he will have a very important option open up to him for when the time is right (if it ever is).

Al Anon is a fabulous program and if you would like to learn how to live in a way where you could be a benefit to your brother, feel better about the way you conduct yourself with him (and everyone else for that matter), stop enabling and be a productive contributer to your entire family, I strongly recommend you look into it. The "Children of Alcoholic Parents" book is great too, but nothing equals the support of a group.

There are AA groups everywhere, a quick internet search will tell you where the nearest meeting is. Go to one and ask for a big book, you will be able to get one for a few dollars, maybe free if you talk to someone about what is going on. You will be received with open arms and thoughtful insights. Get the big book, read the first 164 pages, and pass it on to your brother. There is a way out and there is hope. Reply to this post and ask me, and I will mail you a big book for free if you/he doesn't have one. I mean it.

God bless you and your brother, you are a wonderful person for not giving up already, and your caring interest speaks about you tremendously. You CAN help him, but not until he is ready, that is a very important thing for you to remember.

He may need a lot more hurting before he is ready. Prepare for that reality. If that is the case, there is nothing you can do. Protect yourself, but read the big book, and suggest to the rest of your family that they do the same. It will change the entire family for the better.

Click here to get started

Read the first 164 pages here

Originally posted by Ripperella
Alcoholism is not a disease. People need to grow up and take responsibility for their own actions instead of convincing themselves they're helpless and looking for others (usually people that merely want their money) to take care of their problems for them.

Ok, I've said this about 87,000 times here, but I guess I'll say it again for you,Ripperella.

My dad drank Listerene, Ripperella, out of desperation for alcohol. An entire bottle, not just a couple sips. For a true alcoholic, mind over matter or being strong isn't part of the equation. His body and brain needed alcohol so badly that he was willing to take a chance and drink mouthwash! 'Nuff said.

People have gotten so lazy and have become used to making excuses for themselves instead of taking action. I speak from experience, I've been there.

My dad drank a lot since before I was born, and he also went to work every day and took care of us. He mowed the lawn, cleaned out litterboxes, fixed the roof, climbed down in the pumphouse to work on the water pump, fixed the cars and changed the oil, and even got down in the septic tank and dug it out when it needed it. He wasn't a lazy, weak man, but he did (and does) have a disease.

So continue to speak for yourself, Ripperella, but try to remember that you aren't speaking for, and can't speak for everyone else.