Is it wrong to despise alcoholics?

Originally posted by intrepid
I highly recommend this book:

It will help ALL of you out. Read it, give it to your brother, well, maybe just leave it lying around for him to find. Don't turn your back on him but don't enable him either. Just read that book, it says it better than any could.

I just want to emphazise this. Not necessarily the book but the advice Intrepid gives. The book might be good, but I haven't read it myself so I can't speak out on that.

That you, the OP, asks the question is very very good. Dealing with issues like this is hard, especially if you are on your own. In my opinion there's nothing wrong with stepping back so you yourself don't get hurt in the process. Any feelings you might have, despising included, is ok. Just be careful you don't act on the negative ones and end up doing something you will regret.

However...

You've asked advice on a public Internet forum. Advice you get might be highly opinionated and uninformed. There is no way you can tell whether the advice is coming from a professional, someone claiming to be a professional, or just someone who gets off on giving dangerous advice. Even ATS, as good as the people here are, isn't immune from this.

That said, it's very brave of you to ask the question, and the only advice I will give you is find some sort of professional help near you rather than seek it here. You mentioned your brother had been in rehab, perhaps you and your family were offered some help as well, if not perhaps make contact with one of the places your brother has been to.

reply to post by capgrup


My father use to be an alcoholic back when I was in elementary school.I have many memories about certain things that happened while he was intoxicated.I still remember the day my mother went into the kitchen where he was and closed the door behind her and came out a little later and that was the last day my father drank alcohol.Im thinking she told him that she would leave him and take us with her. I dunno.My father died last year from cancer but he was the hardest working man I have ever known. I'm 24 now and I have never had one sip of alcohol in my life.Those images are still burned into my memory and it's like they keep me from drinking anything.I've never been interested in drinking or smoking.I've seen how it can make people change....trust me, not good.

If there are such things as demons, then they come out of bottles of alcohol. I have seen the demon light of change in the eyes of friends who drink. A demon spirit. I understand why they called it demon rum.

I'm not proud to say that I am an amateur alcoholic. Coming home unexpected from work one night I walked in on my fiance` having an affair on me...in our bed...with one of my co-workers who was instantly fired. Part of the joy of managing someone on their probationary period!

Anyway, it's been about a month and I can't function or sleep at night unless I'm boozed up. The nights I stay sober are the nights when I take care of my daughter, once she's asleep it's miserable and down right cold.

I think it's gotten out of hand, so I decided to see a head shrinker who will hopefully help me. However, when I typically drink enough to feel numb, I turn into a king a**hole as most alcoholics do. So when I get an angry phone call in the morning from a friend asking why I told him he was going nowhere with his life and was bound for life in a refrigerator box. I feel terrible.

So yes, discriminate against drunks and alcoholics all you want. I deserve every bit of criticism I get for treating people like crap. If they can't handle life without booze, they need to help themselves and cope with whatever the problem may be.

Only they can help themselves and only they can claim responsibility for what they do and say.

[edit on 19-8-2008 by Quarantine]

[edit on 19-8-2008 by Quarantine]

Originally posted by IMAdamnALIEN
reply to post by capgrup

 

If it was learned, why aren't you an alcoholic too?

You cannot blame anyone for what has happened to your brother.

He has brought this upon himself. He made a decision to drink instead of being clear headed and sober.

It has nothing to to with a made up disease (alcoholism) ; which is similar to acid reflux disease and restless leg syndrome. They are made up to make the sufferer feel better about what they are going through. If its out of their hands then they have no control. On the contrary, they have complete control and are doing this to themselves.

There is nothing wrong with despising these types of individuals, even if it's family.....

He chose the wrong path. It has nothing to do with you or anyone else.

Do not pity, do not feel guilty, and do not feel shame, as they are pointless emotions directed at sorry individuals.

Keep your head up!

I agree alcoholism is not a disease. I hate when people try to compare it to real diseases. Take cancer for example you don't choose to have cancer but you choose to drink. I think some people just have an addictive personality.

in think some people are so ignorant when it comes to alcoholism.
again: it is a disease:

"One of the difficulties in recognizing alcoholism as a disease is it just plain doesn't seem like one. It doesn't look, sound, smell and it certainly doesn't act like a disease. To make matters worse, generally it denies it exists and resists treatment.
Alcoholism has been recognized for many years by professional medical organizations as a primary, chronic, progressive and sometimes fatal disease. The National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence offers a detailed and complete definition of alcoholism, but probably the most simple way to describe it is "a mental obsession that causes a physical compulsion to drink.""

how can some of you possibly say that they hate alcoholics in general? how can you hate a person, that is so sad and hopeless inside and probably hate him/herself the most - otherwise they wouldnt be drinking or wouldnt have start drinking.

again: i advice everyone with a drinking family-member to go to an AA-group to get all the necessary information about this disease and tips how to deal with it. that is the best you can do.

Alcohol is a disease in the sense that a mental disorder can be a disease. Lack of self-control and discipline are part of the equation, but there are physiological and psychological reasons why a person becomes an alcoholic. Like with any problem, you can't treat it as an adversarial issue, where the person has to just "decide" to quit. People with character flaws or addictive personalities aren't that way because they want to be.

And Alcoholics Anonymous (and other 12-step programs) are useless.

There is a differences between an alcoholic and a social drinker. Look at many over the counter medicines that state, "Do not take this medicine if you consume more that two drinks per day, or consult your Doctor."
One or two drinks a day is considered a "social drinker".
If fact, lately, some health magazines actually promote one or two drinks a day. Especially red wine, as it has many medicinal values not found in other liquids.
One thing for sure though, I'll never have worms !

Originally posted by milabb.
The National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence offers a detailed and complete definition of alcoholism, but probably the most simple way to describe it is "a mental obsession that causes a physical compulsion to drink.""

By that definition almost anything can be a disease, as long as it's a mental obsession that causes a compulsion.

In fact, by that definition anyone who cannot ''restrain'' themselves from doing something bad, could be claimed to have a disease?

I can imagine some really nasty scenario's with that.
I think you understand the course I'm headed for with this.

[edit on 19/8/08 by -0mega-]

Originally posted by intrepid
I highly recommend this book:

It will help ALL of you out. Read it, give it to your brother, well, maybe just leave it lying around for him to find. Don't turn your back on him but don't enable him either. Just read that book, it says it better than any could.

Oh uncanny... there is a name in that book title that is just uncanny.

I wont say what it is, first nor last, but to me, it's just NOT what I needed to see at this point.. more ironic than wrong, just... crazy.. last thing I expected to see TODAY of all days..

a sign perhaps..

or an omen!

All I can say is, its an awesome think you reach out to people you trust with such a question! Thankyou for trusting us within this site, to help if we can!

Despise?

Look! People cope with their pain as individuals, and they learn in their upbringing! Sometimes they learn to follow from their history, sometimes, its the opposite!

Yes, there is some evidence of hereditary genes, but I wonder about that!

You are saying to despise, or to love and help! Why such extreams?

Do your best, through your love, then let go! But dont despise!

Accept you did your best, and thats ok!

You sound really at your wits end! Its ok! You cannot control others emotion and pain!

You also sound like a really nice person!

Originally posted by IMAdamnALIEN
reply to post by capgrup

 

If it was learned, why aren't you an alcoholic too?

Do you really know what learned behaviour is? It's not taught you know. It's witnessed.

it's not like there are alcoholic lessons where you get your alcoholics license at the end.

You cannot blame anyone for what has happened to your brother.

That is true. But you can attribute problems that stem from an alcoholic/abusive upbringing that self perpetuate.

Not always, but you cannot deny that.

He has brought this upon himself. He made a decision to drink instead of being clear headed and sober.

That is so simplistic that it caused me to reply to your post.

Clear headed and sober are luxuries that most people take for granted. They don't often (but some can) make that decision early on in their life.

Others, fall into the trap - the disease you so easily fob off as made up - that is for some, IMPOSSIBLE to get out of without sincere, constant help.

It has nothing to to with a made up disease (alcoholism) ; which is similar to acid reflux disease and restless leg syndrome. They are made up to make the sufferer feel better about what they are going through. If its out of their hands then they have no control. On the contrary, they have complete control and are doing this to themselves.

Im not going to respond to the rest of your post, because I would rather not express my honest thoughts, due to the fact the above is utter twaddle and ignorant of the the facts that 90% of these people find themselves in.

Originally posted by Ravinsomniac
Now I only have a beer or two a week, instead of twelve a night.

12 beers a night. Is that how people in this thread are defining an alcoholic?

Really?

Despise the alcohol not the person. After all it is a drug of dependency and as such is worthy of contempt. After 30 years of seeing alcohol destroy friends and family,of attempts at rehab and finally it being called a disease, (it creates disease) but it being called a disease in my opinion is a cop out,a weakness in the persons personality and an even stronger weakness in authorities to tackle the alcohol companies head on.

Every human has a predisposition to dependency being drugs,alcohol another person etc.It takes them from facing reality and gives them a false sense of security a world where they are safe from whatever they can't deal with.Fanatic religious behaviour can be also called dependency and the list goes on,and if alcoholism is a disease so must be every other form of drug use. In the end it is the person who can end its use no-one else.I have seen "alcoholics" of 40 years stop cold and never touch another drop again and then I have seen them in and out of institutions all of their lives because they don't really want to give up.

I am sorry for you and your family as they are the victims not your brother,if anything he is a victim of wanton greed from business and government alike. My only advice is to help your brother only if he genuinely wants to end the rollercoaster ride otherwise help the victims namely you and the rest of your family.Unfortunately if he continues then at some point you must turn away only he can end his dependency.

By the way I have been sober for 10 years because I decided not to live and waste my life anymore I can only hope that one morning he will wake up and feel the same,you cannot help him if he won't help himself.

reply to post by milabb.


This is to everyone who believes alcoholism is a disease: ITS NOT.

Alcoholics just lack discipline and a set of balls. If they had both of these things they would drink in moderation and sort out their problems like adults, not hide at the bottom of the bottle and make things worse.

Telling them its a disease just excuses their behaviour and gives them another reason not to do anything about it.

I take offense to this thread.

First off, alcoholism is not a disease. I was in a 3 month alcohol class and some therapist tried to tell me this was a disease, I shut em up pretty quick. A disease comes from a virus, or a bacteria or something in your biological system. Alcohol is not a disease as it doesn't live in your body. so it's nonsense.

I got a DUI once for acting stupid and it wasn't even my fault, that was 3 years ago. My sisters think i'm an alcoholic because I drink light beer on my weekends. I DO NOT consider myself to be one but my mother was during her 30's.

So you hate alcoholics, that's fine with me, just don't tell me i'm a disease. thank you

reply to post by capgrup


I feel for you.... I too have a brother that is an awful alcaholic. He is a good person and would do anything to help anybody in need, but the beer comes first in his life. He drinks 24 cans of Busch beer every day of his life(16 oz cans) and never skips a day for anything! His teeth are rotting out, and his aches and pains are getting worse every day. His whole attitude is going straight down the drain. He is always complaining about anything and everything, and his body is falling apart. I don't give him five more years to live.... He only eats here and there, so pretty much the only thing in him is beer. He smells so bad I can hardly stand it, and I even spray him down with FABREZE when he comes over because he smells so bad of alcahol draining out of every pore in his skin. He gets really mad when I do this, and it even sounds funny, but the smell is so offensive, that I can't stand it. I have recently learned that other family members also spray him down when he visits them too. He can't remember anything after five minutes. His memory is shot! He smokes 2 packs a day on top of it. I love my brother, and I hate that he might die before our parents die. I hate what he is doing to himself, and I despise the sight of him in a weird way. He thinks he is fine and refuses to believe that he needs help. If anybody talks to him about his drinking, he gets very angry and won't talk to you for a long time. He has a worthless fat wife that doesn't care since nobody else wants her, so she just deals with it. He has a 10 year old daughter that gets sent to whoever wants her all the time because she gets in the way of his drinking. She doesn't even know her daddy....

Do I hate my brother for this? No, but I can't stand the sight of him or the smell. I hate what he is doing to his daughter, and I hate his wife for not stepping in to force him to get help. He really needs to be locked up to dry out. He's been drinking for 35 years!!!! He has only been caught one time!! Of course the police officer was way out of line and had no business arresting him, according to my brother. His level of denial is unbelievable! He has no fear of health problems, but he is terrified of doctors and needles. I fear that he needs to get deathly sick and make it through it in order to see the light, but of course, that might not work either.... You're not alone! I hate it too! Hopefully my brother's story helps you. I don't know how it can help, but at least you know there are other people who feel the same way as you do about alcaholics... I wish booze was illegal!

If, by "despise," you mean you despise the behavior, then that is most appropriate. Do not hate the person, however, as that hatred only harms you and does nothing for the hated.

I have lost one family member to drug and alcohol addiction and have seen another overcome alcohol. In my opinion, addiction is certainly not a disease. It is a symptom of character weakness. This is not to say that the weak person is evil. We all have weaknesses. But, ultimately, it is his or her choice to give in to the weakness.

My best advice to you is to do what is best for you (and that usually means cutting contact until the person is sober). It sounds selfish, but one of the cruelest things about addiction is the way that the character flaws that lead to it also lead to the use and abuse of those who try to help. Furthermore, the person in question needs to find strength from within to beat the problem, and the reliance on others for support merely inhibits the process of finding that strength.

Protect yourself from the addict and prepare to see him gone forever. Realize that if you lose him, he chose his course and there was nothing you could have done to save him, anyway. You should feel no guilt in his choices.

reply to post by jedimiller


You are a disease that needs to be wiped away! You are a hurtful, evil person! Have you no conscience? Somebody here is reaching out for fellow humankind and somebody like you has to be rude and out of line! You are the virus!!