Is it wrong to despise alcoholics?

Working this argument out as I go along:

I despise the people who sell it to them and who would rather sell the drinks than think about the consequnces of the persons well being. I mean there are obvious looking homeless people who drink or are obviously drunk people who look in a bad state and are sold drinks but the shop keepers sell it to them anyway.

But for some shop keeps its scarey to refuse a drunk as you never know if they end up fighting back and it becomes more of a problem. I think alcoholics are way past the reason stage and need help from soceity, otherwise we are all to blame.

Disease : 1. a disordered or incorrectly functioning organ, part, structure, or system of the body resulting from the effect of genetic or developmental errors, infection, poisons, nutritional deficiency or imbalance, toxicity, or unfavorable environmental factors; illness; sickness; ailment.

Hmmm interesting words in there...

Illness : 1. unhealthy condition; poor health; indisposition; sickness.

Sickness: 1. a particular disease or malady.

malady: 1. any disorder or disease of the body, esp. one that is chronic or deepseated.
2. any undesirable or disordered condition: social maladies; a malady of the spirit.

Source

To me alcoholism is a disease. I also belieive that it can be "learned". If a child / teen is exposed to the drinking and that way of life, sure they're learning how to drink and it progresses from there.

What about pedophiles? Do they too just suffer a disease, at least some of them?
If yes, then why does everyone want them dead when they can't ''resist'' their urges?

Because their ''disease'' is not sad enough, because it affects other people, or because they're just ''sick''?

Liking little girls / boys surely seems to be an unhealthy condition to me.

But then we get back on the ''disease'' track.

[edit on 19/8/08 by -0mega-]

Is it wroung... No...

Is it right... No...

Is it fine for you to do... sure...

Thats YOUR choice... Just like Drinking is THIER choice...
All this (blank) about alchohalism being a desease is (blank)...

HIV is a desease, Cancer, a desease...

Drinking a liquid, IS NOT A DESEASE... its a freaking choice... not hard...

People that call it a desease just have problems with taking responsiblity...


If you don't want to like someone cause they choose to drink, fine...
If you don't like someone because they choose to be gay, fine...
If you don't like someone becuase they choose to act like an illiterate thug, Fine...
If you don't want to like someone cause they choose to be a coke-head, fine...


But realise, they don't have to choose to respect your opinion either...
Opinions go both ways...

In Italy they don't drink like the British do, Italain food is always served with wine, well it used to be. Children drink some of it, my guess many do like like it anyway. When they grow up you find that they don't have the so called cool aspects of getting away with it from buying from shops and showing off to friends that you can do so below the age range. In Italy its not such a problem, but in recent years it has began to effect youngsters a bit and bringing a rise to youth drunkeness due to new fancy bars and tourism having the influence.

Click here for more information.

Who despises alcoholics? They are, like people addicted to drugs of any sort human beings, fellow souls who have a problem. The big difference between alcoholics and drug addicts is that with alcoholics, their bodies cannot process alcohol as opposed to the alcohol itself being addicting.

reply to post by jedimiller


Cancer is a disease and it is not caused by a virus.

Ok i have to jump in and throw my opinion into the fray here.

How is alcoholism a disease? I have read every post here and no one has succesfully argued it's a disease. Diseases aren't something you can cure by simply stopping putting something into your body.

Drinking alcohol is a choice, it takes concious effort to lift that bottle, glass or frozen wine lollipop and put it into your mouth. It takes concious decision to do it. Alcoholics to me are weak people, they may be strong in other ways, but there is something weak in their mind that needs this crutch.

As others have said, cancer is a disease, HIV and AIDS are diseases. To reduce these horrid afflictions to the level of someone who could cure themselves simply by refusing to guzzle alcoholic beverages is utterly wrong.

What's interesting is the recovering alcoholics. If they have fixed themselves then doesn't that just prove it's a choice and not an affliction? Although i also havea problem with recovering alcoholics, because if they can't take one drink and leave it then they aren't really recovering, they're avoiding. Maybe that's a different thread though.

[edit on 19-8-2008 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Very well if you are going to split hairs alcoholism is a dis ease... a malfunctioning of the liver which prevents it from processing alcohol. No matter how you look at it though it is a physilogical disorder... a person can be an alcoholic and have never had a drink in their life because their body cannot process alcohol.

Alcoholism is not a desiese in the standard definition. Anyone who drinks often, and in excess will run the risk of being an alcoholic. This is pretty common knowlage. Schools have alcohol and drug abuse education. Parents should also teach this(although alcoholic parents probably don't). With that said I'm not sure why some of the prior posters were comparing alcoholism with other real afflictions.

Cancer can come out of no where. Alcoholism needs to be fed. Two different things. If anything I'd classify alcholism as a mental disorder.

Now on to the OP's question, is it wrong to despise alchololics? No, it isn't wrong. Alcoholics made a choice to keep drinking. It is their fault, unless they never knew alcohol could be addicting.

alcoholics personally i think its a choice if they want to kill themselves fine go ahead but what makes me angry is that in this country the dept of social services gives them a allowance every week to buy drink with and if they need more all they have to do is ring up and they will get more. i have 2 alcoholic families living at both end of my street they are related and constant aggro from them. one was constantly beating the hell out of his stick insect wife and throwing her out naked in the street she died not too long ago. i hate the thought of my hard earned taxes going to pay for their drink and they get a living allowance on top of that ! (rant!) they get their rent paid too. i personally think the money should go to families with real problems or childrens hospices.

The sad thing about alcoholics is they are possessed by evil entities that feed on pain, and the closer you are to their host, giving your energy or having it sucked out of you, makes you a easy target-I guess your reluctance to continue to support this human being makes you a conscious person-remember to hate the sin-not the sinner. Get away, save yourself

Luckily for the world, none of YOU get to decide what is or isn't a disease. The AMA (American Medical Association) does, at least for the US. If any of you who have posted have a degree in medicine or psychiatry, say so and then you might have some grounds for your opinion. Otherwise, you are like a blind person claiming that grass is not green.

A person can get drunk every night and not be an alcoholic. Most drunks are not alcoholics, and not all alcoholics are drunks. Part of the "definition" of alcoholism as given by those who know it best - recovering alcoholics - is that the alcoholic has lost his ability to choose whether or not to drink. He can't NOT drink. The alcoholic's intentions are often good, and he may mean it with all his heart and sincerity when he promises to stop - tomorrow. He is just as puzzled as you are about his inability to quit drinking, and he is more upset and unhappy about his continued failures to live up to his promises than anyone else.

Until you have experienced the grip of an addiction, you have no business passing judgement on others. You do not have any idea what it's like.

In this thread you are not poking harmless fun at someone who thinks the moon is fake or that the US president is a reptilian. You are giving an opinion about someone's LIFE and their family relationships. If you don't have anything constructive to offer, please go do your trolling in a thread where no one will be harmed by your willingness to display your ignorance as readily as you probably display your underwear.

For Omega and ImaginaryReality:

Consider OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorders), like Mr. Monk on USA. For those of us who are relatively "normal" in that respect, it seems that the OCD person could simply STOP doing what they are doing. Watching a person who has a behavioral "tic" or compulsively washes their hands until they are raw, you literally want to reach out and grab their hands and yell "just STOP!" But they can't. Consider Tourette's Syndrome. Doesn't it seem to an uninformed person that the afflicted is spouting profanity on purpose and could just as easily shut their mouth? But they aren't, and no matter how it looks to you, they can't just "stop it." And neither can the alcoholic just stop drinking. Think about it before you pass judgment on something that you don't have enough information to judge accurately.

(edit to correct spelling)

[edit on 19-8-2008 by Heike]

I have read through every post and I want to thank each and everyone of you.

I know the "terms and Conditions" clause is there for a reason but I did ask for comments as well as advice. I wanted it this way because I am stuck in between both philosophies of thought in whether it is a disease or a choice.

I have thought and said the same things myself and find myself still bouncing from one to the other so I am still unclear as to what I am going to do.

Anyone in the same situation, please feel free to u2u me. You have given me some things to think about and if I can help you with anything I would like that.

Thank You,
Thomas

reply to post by prestonberryworth


I used to wonder if I was an alcoholic... for years I drank a 6 pack or more a night, every night. I could drink a bottle of high alcohol wine and still drink a 6 pack or better, though I did not do that every night.

When my knee messed up and I had to give up my restaurant job I realized that I was not an alcoholic, I worked in restaurants.

Point being you can be a heavy drinker and not or ever be an alcoholic... and like I said earlier you can go your whole life and never touch a drop of alcohol and be one... because it is not a matter of how much you drink, its a matter of metobolism... whether or not your liver processes alcohol properly or not and in the long run, it is that, a biochemical issue that makes the determination.

Originally posted by Heike
For Omega and ImaginaryReality:

Consider OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorders), like Mr. Monk on USA. For those of us who are relatively "normal" in that respect, it seems that the OCD person could simply STOP doing what they are doing. Watching a person who has a behavioral "tic" or compulsively washes their hands until they are raw, you literally want to reach out and grab their hands and yell "just STOP!" But they can't. Consider Tourette's Syndrome. Doesn't it seem to an uninformed person that the afflicted is spouting profanity on purpose and could just as easily shut their mouth? But they aren't, and no matter how it looks to you, they can't just "stop it." And neither can the alcoholic just stop drinking. Think about it before you pass judgment on something that you don't have enough information to judge accurately.

I can't see this as an excuse for a very good reason. My own cousin had pretty bad OCD. He decided one day that it wouldn't rule him anymore and conquered it. so no i don't think it's anywhere near the same thing, thank you.

Torettes is very very diffenrt because it seems ot be a physical thing within the brain itself and not a psychological thing. Even OCD could be said to be an unconcious behavior. Alcoholism is a choice, 'm sorry but it simply is. Whilst it leads to dependency it is still beatable because people have beaten it!. Therefore if it's beatable you have to assume it's a choice to continue along the course of it.

I'm sorry but alcoholics are weak, and the ones calling it a disease do it because it gives them a way out. Humans don't like to blaim themselves for heir misfortunes, they will find any possible excuse. That is what calling alcoholism a disease is, an excuse, an alleviation of the conscience.

Originally posted by IMAdamnALIEN
reply to post by capgrup

 

If it was learned, why aren't you an alcoholic too?

You cannot blame anyone for what has happened to your brother.

He has brought this upon himself. He made a decision to drink instead of being clear headed and sober.

It has nothing to to with a made up disease (alcoholism) ; which is similar to acid reflux disease and restless leg syndrome. They are made up to make the sufferer feel better about what they are going through. If its out of their hands then they have no control. On the contrary, they have complete control and are doing this to themselves.

There is nothing wrong with despising these types of individuals, even if it's family.....

He chose the wrong path. It has nothing to do with you or anyone else.

just to point out, you are talking absolute rubbish

all 3 of the 'made up' conditions you describe have been scientifically proven to be physical diseases/ailments. Im not going to bother referencing that, since no-one else seems to reference any of their sources either.

but trust me, as someone working in the field, there are a lot of genetic cues for a lot of conditions that we are just beginning to understand.

to the OP- support your brother, and understand this is a disease. Hopefully, as another poster said, you wouldnt abandon him if he had HIV, or cancer or diabetes. Why abandon him with now?


I just realised i was premature with addressing just the quotee- it seems that a few people dont understand that alcoholism is a disease.

For transparency, i think it would be useful for people to back up their opinions with some description of their experience or background in medicine. Hopefully, readers can then make an informed decision.

I have a degree in Molecular microbiology and genetice, a masters degree in cellular biology and genetics and a PhD in Molecular Genetics. So i think im qualified enough to comment on the disease classification being discussed.

Two of those degrees are from 2 of the top ranking institutions in the world. If anyone doubts what im saying, i give permission for a MOD to give you my IP to track where im posting from- my only request is that its 'quid pro quo'



[edit on 19-8-2008 by johnDoe21]

[edit on 19-8-2008 by johnDoe21]

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Torettes is very very diffenrt because it seems ot be a physical thing within the brain itself and not a psychological thing.

Did you happen to notice the references I posted above?

Alcoholism IS a physical thing. Brain scans show differences between the children of alcoholics and "normal" children before they have ever taken a drink.

Long-term alcohol abuse can lead to a form of alcoholism due to the changes the drug causes in the brain, but many - perhaps most - are already predisposed to become alcoholics before they ever touch a drop. And when they do take the first drink, their brain and body handle it differently than a "normal" person's do.

I'll try one more analogy for you. Suppose a person is allergic to penicillin. If they are given penicillin, do they CHOOSE to have the negative reaction? Of course not. And alcholism is in some respect like an allergy, because the alcoholic's body does not process alcohol correctly. Unfortunately, this allergy actually causes the person to become addicted to and crave the substance they are allergic to. A "normal" person can drink a LOT and never become an alcoholic; some alcoholics (like me for example) exhibit an alcoholic pattern of drinking within a few months of taking their first drink.

And I'll say one more time .. you are not a doctor or a psychiatrist. You are entitled to your opinion, but you don't have the knowledge or experience to JUDGE if alcoholism is a disease. Not too many years ago most people thought schizophrenics were possessed by demons, and those folks were just as sure they were right as you are today.

Well considering that the very first step in Alcoholics Anonymous is to admit that you are POWERLESS over alcohol...I would say it is more than just a person being lazy or weak.


And I agree with Heike when I say that unless you have lived through it either personally or with a loved one you cannot understand it, It is like the difference between going through war yourself versus watching a documentary about war on television, you simply cant explain it to someone who doesnt know and expect them to understand.


For anyone wondering if you may be an alcoholic, my guess would be no, because if you truly were a real alcoholic there would be no doubt remaining in your mind.

I would say that at the bare minimum alcoholism is a mental disorder or neurological disease, based on the fact that the behavior of an alcoholic is so unreasonable and so self destructive it is difficult to believe that a person would do it to themselves if they had an actual choice or say in it.

You wouldnt call a man with schitzophrenia or severe depression lazy or useless because they cant just "kick" whatever is troubling them. It is the same for the addictive personality who suffers psychosis as a result of chemical dependancy.

Keep in mind also that many alcoholics are so far gone and their bodies are so dependant on alcohol that if they were to just quit or stop cold turkey they could likely die from shock much like a heroin addict who goes through withdrawal.