Crazy Russian SF Training

Although Spetznas screwed up really bad when they tried to take down that theater with all of the audience being held hostage. I think they pretty much killed half the hostages on accident.

Would SAS, KSK, SEALS etc... screw up like that?

Although Spetznas screwed up really bad when they tried to take down that theater with all of the audience being held hostage. I think they pretty much killed half the hostages on accident.

Would SAS, KSK, SEALS etc... screw up like that?

reply to post by BASSPLYR


To be perfectly honest, I believe that the British SAS is the best special forces unit in the world. I know some people believe that the NZ SAS is superior but why do they think this? They wouldn't exist without the invention of the British SAS so how can they be superior?

Personally, I would feel very, very happy knowing the British SAS were to rescue me in a hostage situation. According to my friend Zephrien they are all nutters

Tell that to any hostage rescued from the Iranian Embassey Siege, am sure they would disagree my friend... or should I say foe? Because you seem to think I'm a blood thirsty special forces wannabe?

I wouldn't know why people would think that the new zealand SAS would be better than the UK SAS. I was referring to the australian SAS. I too would feel very very safe if I knew the British SAS were rescuing me. They are the experts. but I think that most countries that have SF groups train them equally as well as he SAS from the UK and that in a stand off between any of the groups it would literally be a toss up. They are all about equal in the basics, and then they all have some unique thing that they do and train for that no other or most others SF groups can't or couldn't do. I doubt the SAS from any country know more about underwater recon and demolitions better than the SEAL's and maybe the SBS groups. I don't think groups like SEALS would be better at force multiplication in foreign countries as well as the Army SF (green berets) etc...

Lots of groups have developed independently of the british SAS model and excel in ways no SAS does, and vice versa. Personally I would prefer to be rescued by the german KSK than any SAS, but thats just me.

ANd the SEAL do a lot more than the public is aware of their mission parameters are a lot wider than just about most of the SF groups. part of the navy's wish to be just as capable as the army in anything their commandos do. most SF groups excel in just one are, the SEALs stand for Sea, Air and Land for a reason. the only place they can't fight is outerspace-that we know of.

Also watch out for Force Recon. If the BUD/S training can make sailors into rough tough navy SEALs imagine what happens when you give hardcore marines the same raining. Recon marines did a lot more hurt to the enemy in vietnam than the seals did, although the seals kicked major ass there too.

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


Hardly. British SAS is the best followed by SEALS then close if not better DELTA. Russians SF is weak.

Delta is pretty damned good. I don't think the SEALs or the SAS would be claiming that they are any better than Delta. All three are about as good as you can get.

Also there are a lot of SF groups out there that non of you guys are mentioning. what about the Koreans SF's what about the Chinese Zongdui? (Chinese SEALs) What about the Israelies? What about the polish. their pretty darned good too.

Also what is the excuse for the spetsnas piss poor performance when trying to rescue all the hostages in that theater a while ago. they killed most of the hostages with a nerve gas.

reply to post by BASSPLYR


I agree with your post that different special forces groups are probably better at certain due to their nature or location etc I still hold the British SAS at the top though, maybe its because I'm British

But, in all fairness the men from all the special forces in the world, or at least those at the top level are all pretty similiar in terms of skill and techniques. Theyre all hard men who are trained to an incredible standard.

I'v never heard of the KSK, according to the wikki article its closely modeled on the British SAS.

Im going to have a look on youtube for some videos of them now.

Originally posted by Zepherian
reply to post by PaddyInf

 

I am portuguese and I understand more than you think. I have very close friends down the same path as you.

Yes, you're brainwashed. You're willingly putting yourself in harms way with a gun in your hand to kill your fellow man based on basically hearsay, without even considering the possibility you're being lied to.

You're high on patriotism, honour, fear and even some closet racism, which are the core motivating forces thrown at you in the military, and off you go to be tools of opression.

I put myself in harms way because it's part of the job, not some strange cliche about patriotism and honour. That has eff all to do with it. I like my job. I'm good at it. I joined the army because I was fed up seeing mates killed on the streets by the IRA and doing nothing about it. I spent several years soldiering in Ulster and found out that it suited me. I don't give a sh1t about the reasons I'm being sent to war etc. The politics of a conflict are outside my pay band.

One royal marine once described to me, this is a first hand account, these terrorism wars as "we go over there and kill a few towel heads". The expression on his face was telling, as his brain was fighting the imorality of his statement yet his conditioning was that it was funny, which resulted in a yellow smile and him lowering his eyes to the ground. He was a 3 tour veteran, soon to go into his fourth.

That's a very moving story and brought a tear to my eye. Or not. The fact is your "3 tour vetran" is a bit of an immature prat. These people do exist. That doesn't mean that we're all like that. I'm currently on my 4th sandy tour. Most of the lads with me have done at least 2. Prior to this I did a number of other operational tours in places such as the Balkans and Africa. This isn't the sort of thing you hear much from Brit troops. You get the odd one trying to act the big lad, but you get that in all walks of life.

So don't for a moment think I don't understand. I understand only too well. It is you that have been made a tool of opression that do not understand how you fit into the scheme of things, and I wish you would wake up to your reality.

But if you don't we can agree to disagree I guess, people are free to choose their own life paths and I believe that is a fundamental universal law, regardless of the politics around you.

I understand completely where I fit into things. It's the people sitting behind the computer screens and making judgements based on what they see on TV who need to wake up and realise that the world is full of very bad people. Force is the only thing that many of these people understand.

You call me a tool of oppression. Try telling that to the people of Sierra Leonne. Before British military intervention there were bands of men roaming the country, killing hundreds at a time. We removed the most powerful of these groups and taught the government troops how to carry out COIN Ops and police the jungle. The country is now more peaceful than it ever has been. This is typical of the type of operation we have been carrying out for years.

The war in Iraq shouldn't have happened, and certainly not for the reasons stated. However on the ground the situation is improving, despite what you may have seen on CNN. I was there during the invasion and again a couple of years late. The change was staggering. Afghanistan (where I am at the minute) is a different kettle of fish. However after talking to some of the people here about things during Taliban rule, the people are happy we're getting rid of them.

reply to post by PaddyInf


I get from your post that how they got you was with money. That level of brainwashing happens to all of us I guess. Still, you had a choice and you chose the gun, which dosen't make you one of the good guys imho. You could have walked away and chosen peace, thus lowering the level of entropy in our society.

Now, going into a bit of pragmaticism: I can imagine iraq is getting better, as who wanted to blow themselves up probably already has and it's about time things settle down, naturally. This is not merit of the occupying forces, I think it's normal war fatigue. And you know Iraq wasn't that bad before, it had a secular government and a decent lifestyle, and whatever social tensions, ie sunnis and shiites(sp?) was really an internal problem. There is no western merit in a future peacefull iraq.
Afghanistan is slightly different, as it had a fundamentalist religious nutjob rule, so it couldn't really get much worse. One honest question though, do you know anything about western troops guarding the poppy fields and/or taliban airlifts after 911? There seems to be some odd things about Afghanistan.

reply to post by Zepherian


Your oppinions are actually quite deluded to be frank. Iraq wasn't that bad before? Ermm, which Iraq are you referring to here?

I really do not understand your logic and way of thinking, are you trying to tell me that there should not be any armed forces in the world & we would be better without people protecting our countries?

What is your problem against soldiers? You do seem to have some sort of personal aggression towards them, as I have said before they are the people who are protecting your country and its inhabitants.

nothing wrong with being british and nothing wrong with the SAS either!!!!

The KSK are more modeled after other british forces more than the SAS. the British have a new SF group that is dealing with the IRA problem. this group acts like a hybrid of the more traditional shooter SF teams like the SAS and the more spook, infiltrate the enemy's ranks type of SF tactics the Isrealies use. the IRA are terrorists and the approach to dealing with them is similar to the one the isrealies take to dealing with their problems. The KSK uses this hybrid system to model their group after. It makes them much more capable at hunting down terrorist cells. they can still do all the other SF stuff too. and their shooting is spot on because a lot of the KSK guys are recruited from GSG9.

SF groups usually borrow an experts from different groups that have expertese they need specific to a mission to produce this super team capable of getting the specific mission done. but this interagency coop leads to a lot of security leaks which can compramise you men and the mission in the long term especially if you are dealing with paranoid terrorist cells that always keep their eye out for spys or traitors to their ranks. KSK hybrid system allows all of the experts to be inside the same team from the get go and so they operate as a stand alone group where they don't need to ask for outside help. this way everything stays very secret, the enemy doesn't get any real intel on the group and their security stays much safer and there are less ways to get the mission compramised from people gabbing.

Groups like KSK keep their men more separated from the rest of the military to keep them as protected as possible from outside influences that are counterproductive to the groups mission statement. keeps them from being corrupted. because of this people don't know too much yet bout the KSK> which is how it should be.

Still doubt though that the KSK has more experience than SEALs do in playing in the water. it's part of KSK mission parameters that we know of, but seriously how much experience are they going to get locking out of subs 60 feet down and underwater clandestine insertions into enemy territory. It's not the german navy's strong point. Thats americas. But then again I'm sure there are things KSK can do that SEALs don't get the training to do.







[edit on 15-8-2008 by BASSPLYR]

[edit on 15-8-2008 by BASSPLYR]

reply to post by BASSPLYR


I would like, if possible some information regarding the British SRU or special reconaisscance unit, if any one could give me some details I would be happy

guys guys lol

look at this objectively, any and all tools can be used in 2 ways

you can use tools for Good, or for Evil.

Special Forces can be used for Good or Evil. It all depends on the circumstance.

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
Although Spetznas screwed up really bad when they tried to take down that theater with all of the audience being held hostage. I think they pretty much killed half the hostages on accident.

Would SAS, KSK, SEALS etc... screw up like that?

'They' didn't unless you count the gas as a member of that organization? Either way the decision was taken for them to go in and secure the place after the gas was pumped in and it's hardly their damn fault if the gas didn't work as advertised.

Stellar

reply to post by muzzleflash


Or to take logic one step further, they can be used as tools. This alone already shows a degree of dehumanization of troops, as they're already subject to someone else's thought processes and have lost some decision making capacity.

You still want to romanticize after tools?

Originally posted by StellarX
'They' didn't unless you count the gas as a member of that organization? Either way the decision was taken for them to go in and secure the place after the gas was pumped in and it's hardly their damn fault if the gas didn't work as advertised.

Stellar

Actually it is. A truly elite orginization would understand the capabilities of weapons they are employing in any situation. In this case the non-lethal gas became a hihgly lethal weapon due to the incompetnce of its use and lack of understanding of the Spetznaz.

Originally posted by rogue1
Actually it is. A truly elite orginization would understand the capabilities of weapons they are employing in any situation.

And a elite formation who is informed of the toxic nature of the substance would not risk their men like they did. In fact plenty of Russian SF members were 'floored' by the gas as well so there is no way they had trained with it or knew what it was. As i understand to this day it's not known which gas were used and many people died because doctors were not made aware of how to treat it.

Either way, as you said, that operation were in my non-expert opinion seriously bungled and it predictably led to the deaths of almost two hundred civilians. I found the systematic ( well i saw video footage and that is what's widely believed) execution of the unconscious hostage takers , including women, to be pretty damn cold blooded and revolting.

In this case the non-lethal gas became a hihgly lethal weapon due to the incompetnce of its use and lack of understanding of the Spetznaz.

Like the DU and vaccinations that have permanently disabled hundreds of thousands of American soldiers after the first gulf war? Do you really want to talk about 'incompetance' and a lack of 'understanding' or only when it can be used in self interested ways?

Stellar

Originally posted by StellarX
Like the DU and vaccinations that have permanently disabled hundreds of thousands of American soldiers after the first gulf war? Do you really want to talk about 'incompetance' and a lack of 'understanding' or only when it can be used in self interested ways?

Stellar

And you are bringing America into this.....why ? I am not American or necessarily pro American. As you have agreed, the Spetznaz ( The Russian elite ) bungled the operation very badly....no more needed to be said. They could be classed as 2nd tier SOF in terms of training, their record is all that is needed as proof of this.

Originally posted by rogue1
And you are bringing America into this.....why ? I am not American or necessarily pro American.

Your right, it's a bit of a reflex even thought it's rarely irrelevant i should indulge less. Would you admit that the mass poisoning of American troops and servicemen hardly speaks highly of the competence levels of the American military infrastructure and that the badly implemented gas attack can only prove so much about the ability of Russian special forces?

As you have agreed, the Spetznaz ( The Russian elite ) bungled the operation very badly....no more needed to be said.

I suppose not and the fact that the school hostage crisis ended just as badly hardly helps even if i don't see how it would have ended with far fewer casualties. It would have helped if their perimeter were not breached thus allowing some to escape!

They could be classed as 2nd tier SOF in terms of training, their record is all that is needed as proof of this.

Right, ok , and i presume your going to want to discuss this in more detail?

Stellar

I don't see how anybody can say SF guys are psychopaths or crazy. I know numerous SF guys (one being my father-in-law) and I can say that none of them are "crazy". Now I can only speak for the Army Special Forces and Delta. These guys are the cream of the crop and the most elite soldiers. They are trained to accept a mission and be dropped off as a small group in the middle of some god forsaken country and are expected to complete the mission. They go out and blend in with the natives and train them and pretty much survive off the resources around them. I don't think any joe off the streets is able to do these duties.
And for the comment earlier in the post about the military being a herd of cattle. It's called a chain of command, just like you would see in a large corporation. You have your bosses and you have your workers. Not everyone can go around being the boss and doing whatever you want. You receive your orders from higher ups and you carry out those orders. All I have to say is that everyone should be grateful that there are soldiers that are willing to go and fight for there country. If there weren't soldiers willing to do this then you wouldn't have a country at all!!!