Crazy Russian SF Training

Originally posted by Zepherian
1) They are not protecting me. Don't you get it, the only thing they are protecting against is people exactly like themselves?

2) The Military is a herd mentality. Strength in numbers. But it's unethical, it's half a dozen smart people hurding thousands of dumb people.

Zepherian, it's good to be idelaistic but only to a point. I have no idea where you reside, but if that happens to be in one of half-decent countries, I will bet my house that your country's leadership made plans for defense a looong time ago, they are being implemented and that's one of many reasons you don't find your spoiled self butchered or shivering in trenches.

Originally posted by Death_Kron


... I respect any member of the special forces, most notably the SEALS, SAS & Delta force.

You respect this guy as well?
OMON

Spetsnaz Training is BRUTAL

reply to post by buddhasystem


It's not idealism, it's the realization that centralised control systems, like states, get empowered by their military and more often than not end up commiting the biggest atrocities. This because of the whole corrupt elitist rule system humanity seems to fall into all too often.

I don't believe in a professional army anymore, at most something like a national guard, and even that is probably past the limits of real necessity. I find it ironic people talk about defense when we see the US on wars of agression, the english doing the same, China in Tibet and Russia isn't exactly playing tip toe with it's military it seems. Resource control and geopolitical strategy is not protection of populations.

My opinion about the military comes out of desilusionment, not idealism.

death kron,

you are right that the SAS are the first SF group around in the way that the public understands what a SF group is. But they are not the basis for all SF groups. Richard Marcinko although he liked some of the SAS model for training still thought it was inadequate for his needs, and his SEAL 6 team did par with the Delta guys in most of their cross training and competitions, in fact seal 6 even did better in some of the competitions. and he did it in a quarter of the time delta with their SAS training did.


Don't get me wrong the SAS are really really good, but the aussies have them beat in my opinion. my seal buddy did say that when he worked with the SAS from the UK that they were a little antiquated and that the SBS was the better of the two. but all sf groups even if they seem identical have different mission profiles and train a little different to achieve what they do.

Also, you are correct. my SEAL buddy is one of the nicest guys I know. Talks soft, sometimes will stutter, very kind to his mom and family, makes friends easily, is very loyal, pays well when he asks for help with whatever he needs doing around his pad when he was away, and he paid for my dinners on many a night when he saw I was having a rough time financially. Received a few purple hearts (OK more than a few) and even a pretty significant medal for charging a machine gun nest when his team was pinned down and many were wounded due to the machine gun. charged the nest, killed em all. though nothing of his life but only for his men. when asked later all he could think of at the time was that they were all going to die if he didn't do something and could only think that all of these men had kids at home who would never see their fathers if he didn't act. he expected to die so that his men could live. fortunately he didn't get killed although a 7.62 that bounced off the pavement did go right through his lower right thigh at the time, just above the knee cap while he was charging. he knew he had been hit but kept on going. thats a SEAL for you. after wards the round caused a blood infection that nearly killed him. but he healed and went right back out into the field a few months later. In afghanistan he took a snipers round right through his left bicept while evacing his men into a helo. the round was intended for his heart. the sniper was aiming for his armpit area. he got luck. too bad for the taliban he lived to fight another day, and fight he did. the taliban were very sorry they failed to get him, of that I have no doubt.

PS he although he likes the SBS better than the SAS, said that they were top notch and that in a head to head battle he would hate to go against any well respected SF team from the spetznas (sp) to the french, to the KSK to the israelies. he said that they are all really good, and that the training although unique or different for each one of these groups are all equal in quality. although he was pretty impressed with the koreans. said they are as good as any of the best.

reply to post by Zepherian


The wars of aggression that you mention do serve a purpose. A government is required to protect and enhance the economy and security of the state. This does not just mean working within its own boarders. We have a global economy and whether you like it or not your standard of living, your taxes etc are all dependant on the social and economical status of any number of other countries.

Put simply, your country (and mine) trade with other nations in order to provide the standard of living that the people have come to expect. If these other nations are threatened this has an effect on their gross domestic productivity, which then has an effect on the economic stability of your country. Often the only way to re-stabalise a country is using physical force. While this appears to be an act of aggression, it is in fact protecting and reinforcing the stability of your country.

You mention earlier about brain washing in "boot". I have served in the British Army for about 18 years now, and have yet to see an episode of "brain washing". Believe it or not, we lead personal lives outside work. We go out, play sports, go on the p1ss etc. There are all sorts of personalities in the units. What you percieve as brain washing is indeed a degree of conditioning. The army requires you to do certain things that the body really doesn't want to. People react differently to being shot at. Some want to run, some want to hide, some want to spray bullets uncontrolably at the threat etc. Without training, this is what you would probably do. The last thing you want to do is go forward and engage the threat. The training, the drills, the constant practice all standardise responses to threats, allowing you to work as a team, to achieve an aim and to stay alive.

Back on topic - I fail to see how dropping knives on your gut or doing sit-ups on glass achieves any realistic goal. This is just show-boating and muscle flexing to try to prove how hard they are. To me it just signifies how much time they have on their hands. If they've got time to think up these stupid exercises, the should really be working on their drills.

reply to post by PaddyInf


The first sign of brainwashing is the victim is unaware he was brainwashed.

reply to post by EvilBat


No, I do not respect that guy. I do not respect or condone any sort of violence against an innocent individual.

That soldier unfortunately is a "mindless psychopath" as Zepherian states, however he is a minority in a very large unit, and a disgrace to his unit aswell I might add.

reply to post by BASSPLYR


Personally, I think the SBS are very good also however I think they are a little overshadowed by the SAS and they do not gain as much limelight. Nice to hear about your buddy, thats the kind of people I was talking about.

And the kind of person that Zepherian is labelling a "mindless psychopath"!!!

Zeph, Von Clauswitz put it most succinctly when he stated that "War is the ultimate extension of economics", with diplomacy being the intermediate step. This has been true of every war, probably since two close tribes faced off to see who would get rights over the best berry patch.
In a world where growth economies are the model and economic resources are being consumed at alarming rates, the necessity of a military is not something that should be overlooked. They may not conform to your ethical idea, but I will have to regretfully advise you that the overwhelming majority of the planet does not either.
The relative peace the NATO countries have enjoyed over the last 60 years or so has been somewhat of a historical oddity.
This is just the wars that England has fought with France in the last thousand or so years.
* The Norman Conquest of 1066.
* The wars of Henry II of England and Philip II of France
* The Stephen and Matilda conflict.
* The Saintonge War (1242)
* The War of Saint-Sardos (1324).
* The Hundred Years' War (1337–1453).
* Parts of the Italian Wars (1511–1559).
* The Second Hundred Years' War (1688–1815).
* The War of the Grand Alliance (1688–1697).
* The War of the Spanish Succession (1702–1713).
* The War of the Austrian Succession (1740–1748).
* The Seven Years' War (1756–1763).
* The American Revolutionary War (1775–1783).
* The French Revolutionary Wars and the Napoleonic Wars (1792–1815).

So, in 942 years since 1066, England has been at war with France for 319 years. That's just England. And only with France. That's 1 year of war for every 2 years of peace. We're overdue.

Don't be naive enough to believe that a military is a redundant waste of tax revenue. They are there to safeguard that revenue and the sources of it from any comers.

Originally posted by Zepherian
reply to post by PaddyInf

 

The first sign of brainwashing is the victim is unaware he was brainwashed.

That's a great argument. So the quarter of a million serving personnel and the countless thousands of UK personnel have served in the military have all been brain washed?

Any real research based evidence to back your claim? It's just that I have very clear and consise memories from pretty much my whole career. I don't turn into an unthinking robot when I put on a uniform or get deployed. I do slip into drills that I have practiced hundreds of times when in a contact, but that is simply good evidence based and time proven training that will keep me and my mates alive. It's quite similar to professional football players using set plays during a match. It's not brain washing, it's training.

I take it you're American? If so I can understand your point of view. During joint exercises and ops with US forces it never ceases to amaze me how they have an extreme hatred of all things anti-american. We Brits on the other hand generally view what we do as a job. We aren't on a crusade to clear the world of anti-UK feelings, and mostly the boys don't take it personally. It's a job, and one we take pride in being particularly good at.

Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean that those who do are "brain washed".

reply to post by meihem


Nice post. I guess we have to get rid of the economists too. I can live with that, they are a bunch of confused worthless psuedo workers anyway. Thanks to their economic paradigms we have a permanent debt economy that can only work if it's growing, because all the money is debt. Way to go Einsteins. Some people consider economy a science, personally I think it's mostly bull#, sand thrown in the eyes of people to prevent them from seeing how the system is empoverishing them over time and how they are being slowly enslaved.

I believe, no, I know, that competition as an economic paradigm breeds artificial scarcity, cooperation as an economic paradigm results in prosperity and ecological balance. War just fits in as another aspect of the competition.

reply to post by PaddyInf


I am portuguese and I understand more than you think. I have very close friends down the same path as you.

Yes, you're brainwashed. You're willingly putting yourself in harms way with a gun in your hand to kill your fellow man based on basically hearsay, without even considering the possibility you're being lied to.

You're high on patriotism, honour, fear and even some closet racism, which are the core motivating forces thrown at you in the military, and off you go to be tools of opression.

One royal marine once described to me, this is a first hand account, these terrorism wars as "we go over there and kill a few towel heads". The expression on his face was telling, as his brain was fighting the imorality of his statement yet his conditioning was that it was funny, which resulted in a yellow smile and him lowering his eyes to the ground. He was a 3 tour veteran, soon to go into his fourth.

So don't for a moment think I don't understand. I understand only too well. It is you that have been made a tool of opression that do not understand how you fit into the scheme of things, and I wish you would wake up to your reality.

But if you don't we can agree to disagree I guess, people are free to choose their own life paths and I believe that is a fundamental universal law, regardless of the politics around you.

Well in 1999 15 Rusian Spetz, took part in British Royal Marine Commando course, the longest selection course in NATO, not one passed and as far as there combat effectiveness, they are not special they are comparable to regular army units and have nowere near the training or experiance as British SAS, SBS, SRS, Marine Commandos, Paras, American Delta or seal teams BUT they are very good at showing off nowere in combat do you need to do pressup on broken glass, and as far as Georgia conflict, Russian troops have been out classed by NATO Trained Georgian troops, they had to reley on WW2 massive overwhelming force stratgey.

Indeed Zeph, let's have all the economists up against a wall, along with the politicians and lawyers when the revolution happens.
Unfortunately I believe that conflict and war are a deeper rooted part of our psych than any of us would care to admit. It will take a great deal more evolution for us to grow out of it.

In the meantime however, psychopaths are not the sort of people wanted on any special forces team, or in the military in general. Psychopaths are too likely to go off and do their own thing killing 'off the range' as it were.
I once dated a girl who's father had been an SAS trooper with active service in Northern Ireland, a very nice chap, outgoing, friendly and intelligent (very suprising considering I was sleeping with his daughter), he was not the cliched dark warrior psycho.

I think the primary selection criteria for such units are endurance, tenacity and intelligence, due to the mission types they are assigned to and the equipment they have to use.
Anyone can be trained to kill, it's a matter of 'programming' limbic responses, a process similar to any martial arts training, repetition of actions until they become the automatic reaction in certain situations. It's not brainwashing, it's something you do to yourself when learning to drive a car, type or ride a bike.
Returning to the thread subject
I seem to recall her father once mentioning that the SAS had gotten too much publicity to be deployed effectively, and that the SBS were the guys getting the 'nice' jobs. But he was of an age to have been in service before the Iranian embassy affair.

reply to post by englishste


I agree with you and all the posters that have mentioned that performing situps on broken glass isn't exactly "training"

They should really be practising something beneficial such as hand to hand combat, signals, first aid etc

Performing situps on broken glass doesnt achieve anything and quite frankly its rather stupid and dangerous.

I'm not sure if this is the type of stuff they do regulary, it is possible that it was staged especially for the newspaper article and the video - as they were used to warn potential football hooligans against the type of people they would be against if they got out of hand.

Originally posted by englishste
Well in 1999 15 Rusian Spetz, took part in British Royal Marine Commando course, the longest selection course in NATO, not one passed and as far as there combat effectiveness, they are not special they are comparable to regular army units and have nowere near the training or experiance as British SAS, SBS, SRS, Marine Commandos, Paras, American Delta or seal teams BUT they are very good at showing off nowere in combat do you need to do pressup on broken glass, and as far as Georgia conflict, Russian troops have been out classed by NATO Trained Georgian troops, they had to reley on WW2 massive overwhelming force stratgey.

1. What drugs are you on they are doing the same type of bombing that U.S. does in Iraq, thatx for proving you DON'T know what your talking about!!

2. "Spetznas" is just a "general" word that means "Special Force" what's included in "Spetznas" is Russia's version of Marine Recon, Force Recon, Army Rangers, Delta Force, and Navy Seals, also in the "Special Forces Encyclopedia" you can read the U.S.'s reviews of "Spetznas" there are no equivalants" in the western world to them, and they are some of the most FEARED in the world, if YOU don't agre then tal=ke that up with the U.S. Gov but I believe thier word more than yours

3. In the 96 Special-Forces Olympics "Spetznas" beat EVERY-ONE in ALL the events except weight-lifting.

[edit on 14-8-2008 by Lambo Rider]

[edit on 14-8-2008 by Lambo Rider]

[edit on 14-8-2008 by Lambo Rider]

gotta agree with lambo rider, hes pretty much right.

In regards to the competition. not all SF groups send their best guys to those competitions, only the ones they have laying around the compound not deployed. most of the good guys are out there operating. including I bet a good deal of spetsnas.

reply to post by meihem


By getting rid of economists I didn't mean a firing squad

Here's the general theme of my posts on this thread: what has been accepted by the general population as normal behavious is psychopathic. This is what we have to wake up to, and the existance of professionalized killers that are indeed respected and even liked in that role is a symptom of a greater social mental disease.

Our whole society is psychopathic, so nobody notices it, because everyone thinks normal behaviour is, well, normal. We're all nuts to be quite honest. Mad as a fruitcake.

reply to post by Lambo Rider


When you can put a sentance together without using - and like i been a Royal Marine Commando then i will take you more seriously ive seen western special forces in action and you certainly wouldnt find them in any sort of international games apart from inter unit, and spetz are devided into brigades and are under nominal command of diffrent aspects of Kremlin intelligence machine and as for comparing there actions in georgia, if they were using the same tactics as western military machine why did it take them 2 days to decided they needed central russian district troops to overcome and out flank a smaller and in your respect inferior force? please do tell