We helped in Iraq - now help us, beg Georgians

Maybe im incorrect here, or everything i read was incorrect, but didnt Georgia start shelling the capital of South Ossetiia in the middle of the night?
Havent some 2000 odd civilians been killed, compared to how many soldiers all around?

Im pretty sure if georgia didnt start shelling innocent civilians, they wouldnt have to be begging the US for help....

Just my $.02...

reply to post by SR

Last time i checked, supporting allies that are doing illegal and wrong things, like slaughtering 2000 innocent civilians in the night, wasnt the best course of action. If canada started killing off all non-french canadians, im pretty sure we wouldnt bee sending them troops to help kill of the non-kanucks... No offense to my canadian neighbors, i think canada is pretty sweet.

Originally posted by blueorder
The point I am making is that you are saying Ossetia (south) is not an internationally recognised sovereign nation and Russia should stay out, however Britain and the US didn't stay out of Serbia's "regional" bother in Kosovo

ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity!! ethnic cleansing of a population, by a dictator, gave some sort of legitimacy to the intervention in the internal affairs of serbia. what is the justification of equal seriousness in this case? my point is that comparing kosovo to s ossetia is apples and oranges as i understand it, if you understand it better then explain it in more detail than saying, "its the same thing".

I know the point you are trying to make, but Georgian troop movements and bombardment of this "region"/ "defacto independent area"/ "quasi autonomous region" *delete as you find appropriate* is not similar to army back up of policing in NI which was introduced to stop catholic and protestant communities from killing each other

it's not the same thing, it's the same principle, troop movements and engagements within any soverign country are an internal affair, for any international intervention to be legitimate as anything other than an invasion it cannot be strictly unilateral and it cannot be unjustified.

Leaving aside my own view on Iraq, why the hell not, maybe you would be better telling Georgians they shouldnt have taken sending troops to back up the US/Uk in Iraq as a green light for military support against Russia

because, once you become allied to any country in a conflict situation, you are responcible for going to their aid should they be aggressively invaded. if the us/uk didn't recognise south ossetia as anything other than a region of georgia, then that is exactly what happened. if georgia invaded russia, you'ld be correct, russia invaded georgia, so your wrong.

Im not sure if you are understanding my point, I am saying democracy in the UK is a farce, thats why 40% dont vote, there is dang all real difference between the tories and labour, all part of this leftist inspired notion of "consensus" and centrist politics which basically surpresses meaningful debate or difference- who will fill this void, perhaps a rather more savage beast, so spare me your "naive" comemnts, when you completely misunderstand the point I was making, my eyes are open chum

what a load of tosh, the uk is not a two party state, don't give me that rubbish about the middle ground killing democracy, vote for someone whos policies reflect you beliefs or if there isn't anybody, run yourself. if your eyes were open you'ld realise that the reason democracy is dying in the western world is due to apathy and a lack of moral back bone, but its easier to believe someone else is at fault than to believe something that requires you to do something other than winge on an internet site when you're supposed to be working.

Originally posted by blueorder

Originally posted by pieman
nope, i believe that's called naievity.

also, find it ironic to be accused of naiveity from someone who thinks the US would go to war with Russia over South Ossetia just because Georgia sent some troops to Iraq.....

do you not read well or are you deliberately misquoting, i don't believe america or they uk actually would send troops up against anybody but a poorly equipped third world army, while i believe they have a moral obligation to do so, i also know that they are to spineless to fulfil any such obligation where they are likely to lose.

Originally posted by TKainZero
I am getting reports ALL OVER, that the US forces AROUND the world are moblizing...


Nothing can be confirmed of course...

But, it looks like something is in the works...

During the 2nd Iraq War, the US Para-droped over 10,000 US forces, complete with Tanks, and EVERYTHING... All done in secret...




This realy is the most terrorfiying moments of my life... im 22... I wasnt alive for the cold war... I have no memories of this... My generation has grown up, unaposed...

On 9/11, the US was attacked, not by a nation, but by individuals, with netwroks behind them... That day is burned into the minds of all TRUE americans... But our existance as a nation was not at stake...

IF we go to war with Russia, our NATION is going to be at stake... thats the brutal reality of it... Every War-Time horror story you can think of will pop back up...

rationing
Shortages
Consription



After 9/11. we had the will to fight, but no defeinate enemy...
Now, we have an enemy to fight, but have lost the will, because of YEARS of war...


The Georgians ARE our Ally... The US is a sheep is she wont defend her allies...

WWIII is not what i want, no one REALY wants to fight WWIII, not anyone who knows what WAR is... not anyone with an ounce of history in them...

But, there are times when we can CHOOSE what we want, and there are times when our Allies choose for us...

The US has legitimate enemies out there, don't forget about of Islamo-Facist friends, but the Russians are an enemy that can hurt us... rather then just piss us off...

Every hour this conflict goes on...
Every news story that comes in...

I feel worse and worse...
These are our allies, our brothers-in-arms, these men fought ALONGSIDE our boys...

THEY FOUGHT WITH US...
They have DIED with us...
They traveled with us to a forgien land, to fight, for an ideal...

Now, thier home is under attack, and we stand idlely by...
Its breaking my heart...

My parents are in this region... and i can't contact them...

Never, NEVER before has a decision been this hard.
Never before have the truth seemed Further away...



So, now, heres a speech to keep your hopes up...

"All this Stuff about America not wanting to fight, wanting to stay out of the war, is a load of horse-dung. American, Love to fight, all REAL americans, LOVE the sting of battle."

[edit on 8/11/2008 by TKainZero]

Sorry kid, but go beat your WAR drum somewhere else...

If we are to have War why not let the American people decide, if you say they are as thirsty for Russian blood then congress will declare war. Nothing wrong with letting the American people decide, right?

Again, that's if you believe in our Constitution?

[edit on 11-8-2008 by Gateway]

reply to post by TKainZero


Any smart person in the world could see that. US will not go to war with Russia, that war cannot be won.
Or maybe they will, maybe the missile shield works, half the world is destroyed, the other goes back to the stone age, while the elite survive untouched in their bunkers

I love doing this, so I want to point out some American hypocrisy.

Remind me why Americans hate the French? Because we "helped" them in World War II, and they "betrayed" us in the run up to the Iraq War?

So Georgia helps us in the Iraq War, and we do what to them in the South Ossetia War....?

For those downplaying Georgia sending 2,000 troops to Iraq: for your information, that is 10% of their land forces. Not everyone has a $600 billion military, so for some, sending 2,000 troops to a nation and to a war where they will benefit nothing is a big deal.

There's also those saying we shouldn't assist Georgia because they have killed 2,000 civilians. Remind me how many civilians have died in Iraq?

Your arguments are laughable.


[edit on 8/11/08 by NovusOrdoMundi]

Lets say Texas decided to break way from the union. What do you think we would do? The CIA would elicit a response based on covert actions. Texas attacks based on those covert actions, the rest of the US is horrified and the US responds just like the Russians did here. They had operatives in place to provoke this little attack by Georgia and Bush said "quid pro quo?" Putin says sure, why not... "go ahead and whack them Bush says." "We will take Iran in a few days..." Putin says I could care less and we will make sure the paper tiger China will just STFU.

Its a rope a dope folks and we are ringside...

We must help Georgia. Its as simple as that. Russia has taken a central city in Georgia itself and as the Georgians have said themselves the speed and the planning of the Russian attack suggests the current operation was planned months if not years in advance.
Have we forgotten Poland? Have we forgotten Czechoslovakia? Have we forgotten Austria?
Appeasement solves nothing and helps no one. The Russian's have gone too far and we need to step up to the line and say enough is enough. Russia has more than made their point. They should withdraw from Georgia now! If they do not then a clear message must be sent or they will think they have a blank cheque and can do anything they want to the independent nations that made up the former Soviet Union.
Georgia must be admitted into NATO now and Russia must be given an ultimatum to leave the country, as an attack on one NATO country is and attack on all NATO countries. Not even the faux he-man Putin would be stupid enough to take on NATO.

The State Department have categorically ruled out US direct military action against Russia. NATO peacekeepers? Maybe, expulsion for the G8 is the most likely.

Israel have stopped arms sales to Georgia on the request of Russia and have gone public to confirm the US is providing ammo and transportation for Georgia.

Russia holds all the cards in this conflict.

Originally posted by Gateway
Again, that's if you believe in our Constitution?
[edit on 11-8-2008 by Gateway]

The constituion pertains to the former Democratic Union that was America. Capitalism has since replaced Democracy, around the same time America became known as the U.S.

I didnt every post in this thread - so i apologize if anyone has discussed this prior:


Do you think this was the intentions of the Georgians as of late? To "instigate" a fight with Russia on the notion that they could guilt-trip the US into a conflict with the super power?

That - or could this be a very defiant move by Russia, much in the way Hitler invaded Poland. I am not comparing Hitler to Putin - i am just comparing the initial actions.

As far as pointing the finger at the US - why isnt the world pointing the finger at the U.N.?

Before i say what i'm about to say - let me say this: I'm against the war in Iraq because i was lied to repeatedly as to why we were going there. Which says to me we had to reason to be there in the first place (just my 2cents)



But:
Why is it that every time America GOES to war - the world says "BOO!"

But when any country is AT war - the first person they call for help is the United States?

Originally posted by Shamanator
We absolutely MUST help the Georgians they have been good allies to us and we owe them that much. This is an act of pure vicious aggression by Russia on a much smaller country merely because they hate it's freedom and democracy.

Russia must be put back into it's place before they start getting silly ideas and we have to nuke them it's much better to dominate them now with conventional US forces and give them such a good kicking they never fight a war again.

I do hope you're COMPLETELY kidding.
"This is an act of pure vicious aggression by Russia on a much smaller country merely because they hate it's freedom and democracy." What are you, retarded? Georgia started it (twice, sort of). They shelled Tskhinvali, killing hundreds, and shot down (at least) two Russian warplanes who got into it's airspace. Russia didn't "invade" Georgia until AFTER Georgia DECLARED WAR. What do you do to a country that declares war with you? Go home?

Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
Do you think this was the intentions of the Georgians as of late? To "instigate" a fight with Russia on the notion that they could guilt-trip the US into a conflict with the super power?

That is my theory, given that Mr.Saakashvili makes bellicose speeches in front of the EU flags (illegally, by the way), in English, and that Georgians opened up on Tskhinvali with a 14 hour long barrage of Multiple Launch Rocket systems and other nasty things.

Originally posted by SilentBob86
reply to post by SR

 

Last time i checked, supporting allies that are doing illegal and wrong things, like slaughtering 2000 innocent civilians in the night, wasnt the best course of action. If canada started killing off all non-french canadians, im pretty sure we wouldnt bee sending them troops to help kill of the non-kanucks...

No offense to my canadian neighbors, i think canada is pretty sweet.

Hypocricsy at it's finest. When the chips are down all the USA serves is it's self picking on weaker countries. Stalin was a good enough ally to have during WW2 was he not. What was the point of promoting Georgia's entry to Nato so feverently and patting them on the back for there contribution to Iraq to leave them high and dry when the excrement hits the fan.

What was the point of getting involved in Kosovo and what was the point in invading Iraq then?? Or do the innocent citizens in those countries that have been killed don't count.

We as allies have to stand by America time and time again as you's go in blowing the hell out of innocent people and even our solidiers in friendly fire incidents but when the chips are down and the role is reversed it's laughable it really is.


[edit on 11-8-2008 by SR]

reply to post by flyindevil


1.)
you saying

What are you, retarded?

isnt necessary for an intelligent and mature discussion.



2.) What Russia seems to be doing to Georgia is the same thing has a 12th grade beating the crap out of a class of 2nd graders, because the 2nd graders called him a poopy-face.


Atleast thats my take on it.

Originally posted by SilentBob86
reply to post by SR

 

Last time i checked, supporting allies that are doing illegal and wrong things, like slaughtering 2000 innocent civilians in the night, wasnt the best course of action. If canada started killing off all non-french canadians, im pretty sure we wouldnt bee sending them troops to help kill of the non-kanucks...

No offense to my canadian neighbors, i think canada is pretty sweet.

HOLY CRAP! Do you realize how many of us Canadians are non-French? MOST people outside of Quebec (and possibly the Atlantic Maritimes).

All the WARMONGERS on this thread thirsty for Russian blood are the same Neocons that brought us Iraq, and beating the drums to attack Iran, and now want a war with Russia...

Complete idiocy, what is it with killing that you guys love so much...


Why the Neocons love their little beloved Neocon State Georgia...

The anti-Russian bias of the Western media is really something to behold: "Russia Invades Georgia," "Russia Attacks Georgia," and variations thereof have been some of the choice headlines reporting events in the Caucasus, but the reality is not only quite different, but the exact opposite. Sometimes this comes out in the third or fourth paragraph of the reportage, in which it is admitted that the Georgians tried to "retake" the "breakaway province" of South Ossetia. The Georgian bombing campaign and the civilian casualties – if they are mentioned at all – are downplayed and presented as subject to dispute.

The Georgians have been openly engaging in a military buildup since last year, and President Mikhail Saakashvili and his party have been proclaiming from the rooftops their aim of re-conquering South Ossetia (and rebellious Abkhazia, while they're at it). Avid readers of Antiwar.com saw this coming. In a column entitled "Wars to Watch Out For," I wrote: "As President Mikheil Saakashvili deflowers his own revolution and shuts down the opposition media, he could well try to divert attention away from his political problems by ginning up a fresh conflict with the breakaway regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, both of which are protected by Russian troops and regional militias."

Read the rest of the article here:www.antiwar.com...



[edit on 11-8-2008 by Gateway]

Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
reply to post by flyindevil

 

1.)
you saying

What are you, retarded?

isnt necessary for an intelligent and mature discussion.



2.) What Russia seems to be doing to Georgia is the same thing has a 12th grade beating the crap out of a class of 2nd graders, because the 2nd graders called him a poopy-face.


Atleast thats my take on it.

You're right, I shouldn't have that particular phrase. But Shamanator was so... war-mongering. But I still shouldn't have called him/her retarded.

Anyways, do you call killing 1000+ (very conservative estimate) (possibly of Russian descent or citizenship) the same as calling someone a poopy face? Especially since Georgia attacked mostly citizens at the start (August 8th)?

But I'm not trying to say Russia is innocent. It isn't. Neither country is innocent. Russia is taking things too far. But Georgia has killed more (citizens), even though Russia is the larger army. I think your view on it should be reversed (and modified).

At any rate, more citizens are dying (both sides) than troops! That's screwed up!

i'm still curious if anyone has already discussed this - if not - what their viewpoint would be (from my previous post)

As far as pointing the finger at the US - why isnt the world pointing the finger at the U.N.?

Before i say what i'm about to say - let me say this: I'm against the war in Iraq because i was lied to repeatedly as to why we were going there. Which says to me we had to reason to be there in the first place (just my 2cents)



But:
Why is it that every time America GOES to war - the world says "BOO!"

But when any country is AT war - the first person they call for help is the United States?