Georgia declares war

wrong thread

:deleted:


[edit on 9-8-2008 by spacebot]

Originally posted by johnsky
... then again, the Georgians did make sure they destroyed what was left of their reputation by clearing civilian basements with grenades to catch anything they missed with the shelling.

Huh?!?

That's the first I have heard of that particular claim.

Not that it would shock me that much.

More insane:
A. Mikheil Saakashvili

or

B. People who think this could start WW3


I'll choose C. All of the above.

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
More insane:
A. Mikheil Saakashvili

or

B. People who think this could start WW3

I'll choose C. All of the above.

Well Saakshvilli's mental state is known to be unstable and psychotic - even before he became President. His arrogance and hotheaded retardation is what got him booted from Shevarnadze's government. Before the West made him out to be a darling during the Rose Revol...um Coup, he was the laughing stock of Gergia.

At least people who think this may lead to WW3 have some sort of a mental process which somehow leads them to conclude that it is possible to get from point A straight to point Z. Saakashvilli's mental process works differently. He plans to leave point A, period. Where the wind takes him from there is another question.

Well, to be fair, it could conceivably lead to WW3, if everyone involved does precisely the stupidest possible thing, but then again it probably won't.

Then again, it has happened before: see WW's 1 and 2

Well now a handful of videos from the ground fighting and bombing is beginning to show up on liveleak. Here is the media that is leaking out. No doubt more to come.

Raw Video : Georgia And S. Ossetia Exchange RPG And Gunfire, 6 Wounded.

RAW: Russian Airstrike Against Civilian Area (Plus Aftermath)

Raw : Remnants Of Georgian Fighter Plane Fall From The Sky.

Raw : South Ossetia Comes Under Heavy Fire.

WARNING GRAPHIC FOOTAGE, MUST BE REGISTERED TO VIEW!
Raw : Civilians Killed In Constant Shelling In South Ossetia.

Welcome to the beginning of the end friends.
this could very likely lead to more trouble, with allies being drawn into the fight. We are allies with Georgia so if they need help who do you think they will call? Then we will be fighting russia and they will call in their allies and so on and so forth. So yes this could very well lead to WWIII it isnt far fetched to believe so either because as stated before it has happend twice before.

[edit on 10-8-2008 by caballero]

I think we should side with Russia and teach these liars a lesson.They started this and Russia did what ny other nation would do to protect its people from genocide.

The way the media are spinning this is disgusting,they hardly mention the reason why Russia is there and how many people were killed by Georgia with their city shelling.

I hope Georgias war machine gets a bloody good thumping,and they NEVER join NATO.We dont need them,and we dont want them

The pathetic lies been spread round painting them as victims is revolting,I hope the next time they start that BS on live TV the newsmen slap them in the face with hard facts rather than the bare faced lies they peddle while playing the victim

Here's one of my crackpot ideas: This was planned to keep Russia busy while China has to deal with it's own affairs without/with minimal help from Russia. Somehow I feel they'd get involved there to put down any rabble rousers in Tibet. Stragedy at it's best.

Originally posted by caballero
Welcome to the beginning of the end friends.
this could very likely lead to more trouble, with allies being drawn into the fight. We are allies with Georgia so if they need help who do you think they will call? Then we will be fighting russia and they will call in their allies and so on and so forth. So yes this could very well lead to WWIII it isnt far fetched to believe so either because as stated before it has happend twice before.

[edit on 10-8-2008 by caballero]

No chance. Georgia has now withdrawn from SO and announced a ceasefire. Russia will take a while longer to cripple the Georgian military infrastructure (so that they won't be able to try this again any time soon...) and then they'll agree to the ceasefire. This was never going to spread unless Russia all-out invaded Georgia (not just a disputed area) which was never going to happen anyway. Calm down.

The BBC news 24 are now using Interfax as a source and reporting that Russia has ordered a halt to military operations in the area.

I haven't seen this referred to anywhere else including Interfax but we'll see how things change over the security counsel meeting that is going on at the minute.

(Oh, and if anyone actually cares, apparently the US is proposing pass a resolution to condemn Russia over its actions)

reply to post by xmotex

Over the last 24 hours it seems to be CNN and the other US news sources have been adopting a pretty strong pro-Georgian slant.

Hard to miss isn't it?

CNN, FOX, CBS, Reuters and especially British media are portraying Russia as the aggressor here, looking to reestablish it's old Communist sphere of influence over poor, little, innocent Georgia.

I noticed how they're all playing Saakashvili's pleas for help to their hearts content.

Ignoring of course Georgia just wiped out over 1,000 civilians.
And they're committing war crimes.
And their displaying Russia dead on national TV.
And grenading people hiding in basements.

Yet they keep focusing on every step Russia takes to the point where you would think your watching a Cold War era broadcast here the way they're trying to make Russia out to be the cause of all problems.

Jesus Christ, and to think your Joe Average who can't tell Russia from China let alone find Ossetia on a map, will look at the news tonight and all he will see is Russia kills this, Russia invades that, Russia crossing the border...

And his conclusion is going to immediately be: Russia=Bad.

Right, because the media portrayed America in exactly the same way when their peacekeepers got attacked in Somali and the US intervened?

Hypocrites....

reply to post by Absence of Self

They did take down a backfire.

I don't know whether to be impressed or even more worried.

As I said before, what Georgia lacks in aerial capabilities they make up for in S-2-A defences.

Taking down a Backfire isn't breaking a world record here.
Look at Afghanistan, comparable aircraft like like the MiG-23 were taken down which can fly even faster and have the same service ceilings. And the Mujahideen were even less well equipped than Georgia is.
en.wikipedia.org...

I'm not saying Georgia stands a chance of defeating the Russian Air Force because they don't, but before this conflict is over they will give them a bloodied nose.

They have some very potent equipment in decent numbers and Russia has yet to cross into the Georgian border en masse and attempt to subvert their S-2-A defences, hence why they are operating quite freely.

The SA-11 Gadfly, the S-200, en.wikipedia.org...the hand-held Igla and the mobile Osa; Georgia possesses all in decent numbers: en.wikipedia.org...

(actually was it a 22 or a 22m? ...The backfire would be a much harder mark then the the blinder and i think the reports only refer to a Tu-22 blinder.)

It was a Backfire. The Blinder has not been in service since 1991.

At the time of the collapse of the Soviet Union there were 154 remaining in service, but none are now believed to be flying. More than 70 were lost in various operational accidents.

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by FredT

Was it a TU-22 or a TU-22M? The -22 is known as the "Blinder" or the -22M which is the 'Backfire" It makes more sence if its the Blinder in this case.

No it was a Backfire (Tu-22M3). I know it may seem I unlikely but read what I wrote above, far from impossible. The Blinder has been out of service for almost two decades.

[edit on 10/8/08 by The Godfather of Conspira]

reply to post by Absence of Self

I know a lot of people think that Russia is effectively militarily weak etc but it really does not reflect the situation on the ground.

The simple fact of the matter is that Russia could, if it wanted to, crush Georgia to a thin filmy mess but it's holding back to a large degree.

Exactly what I said on the "Georgia downs 2 Russian aircraft" thread.

They don't want to fall into the trap Georgia has set here. The international media is firmly behind them and Georgia is feeding them outright bull trying to portray Russia as the big, bad, Communist aggressor looking to pick on the weak.

Putin's smart, he's not taking the bait. There is a good chance NATO or the US might involve themselves if Russia actually crosses the Georgian border en masse and launches an all out offensive.

There's no way Russia is risking loosing all relations with the West over some territorial bullsh*t in the Caucasus, which is considered a cesspool of nationalistic extremism in Russia.
Russia needs the West economically, as much as they hate to admit it; open conflict with NATO or the US would cripple the economy.

Hence why the military has a very short leash here. They're giving them just enough men and material to actually subdue the Georgians, (which they have accomplished quite well forcing them out of Tskhinvali) but no more than that.
And no violations of Georgia's territory either.

Keeping the conflict as marginalised as possible will allow the Russians to still send a stern warning to the Georgians without risking being internationally ostracised or coming to blows with the West.
Which sadly, is relentlessly accusing Russia of being the aggressor here.

reply to post by ADisbeliever


hopefully not!!

no i don.t want to wonder why they are not able to communicate and all that stuff

isn.t it the "good" old game again: power and money?

Well the US media are real slow on reporting this because their poster boy Obama looks bad whenever there is a foreign policy crisis. They don't want to give McCain a boost in the polls by reporting on a foreign war. If the story helped Obama it would be covered 24/7 making the OJ Simpson case look like it never happened.

reply to post by SectionEight

Well the US media are real slow on reporting this because their poster boy Obama looks bad whenever there is a foreign policy crisis.

It's got little to do with Obama friend...

They're up to speed in their reporting there's no doubts on that, CNN has up to the minute coverage and excellent footage, it's what their choosing to report that's troubling.

Russia bombs this...
Russia invades that...
Russia attacks here...
Russia moves troops there...

All the journalists seem to have developed acute amnesia. What about Georgia bombs 1,400 civilians? Georgia displays dead Russian pilots on national TV? Georgia grenades basements in Tskhinvali?

Extremely biased all around. Western media is intent on portraying Russia as the same Cold War aggressor it was in 1963, disregarding the fact the Georgians fired on them first and drew them into this mess to begin with.

None of these things are commonly sourced so we don't know if they are verifiable but.. According to the Channel 4 news in the UK, The Ukraine has said that it will interfere with Russian naval vessels in the Black sea if Russia uses the ships to start an assault.

(Unlikely in my opinion, they don't need too)

And the Russian secretary is now reported (according to general rumors originating from the US foreign secretary at the UN) to have said that the only possible solution would be for Georgia to withdraw completely and for Saakashvili to quit office...

Leading (says the same source of the rumor, the US foreign Sec) to fears that Russia is now after regime change and an alteration to the balance of power in the region.

Does anyone know how reliable this is?

OS Inform translated via the google thing, Russian link here Osinform Ru.

These guys are confirming the sinking of a Georgian ship after two of them apparently opened up on the Russian blockade.

They are also reporting that :

1. Iran has offered help to south Ossetia.

2. The southern Ukraine is on the brink of all out revolt due to the governments support for Georgia and ...

3. The Georgian pilot captured by the Russians yesterday is being interrogated with the help of a translator since the man only speaks English!!!

Has that last one been mentioned anywhere??

[edit on 10-8-2008 by Absence of Self]

reply to post by Absence of Self

Georgian pilot captured by the Russians yesterday is being interrogated with the help of a translator since the man only speaks English!!!

sounds fishy ?????

could it be a american mercenary pilot ??? Blackwater??? Dynacorp??

Originally posted by Absence of Self
Does anyone know how reliable this is?

These guys are confirming the sinking of a Georgian ship after two of them apparently opened up on the Russian blockade.

Appears to be true. I broke these news here 15 hours ago, but mentioned that they were unconfirmed. Now they appear to be confirmed by both sides.

Originally posted by Absence of Self
They are also reporting that :

1. Iran has offered help to south Ossetia.

Nothing on this in any Russian sources. Iranian government did issue a statement that they call for ceasefire in the Caucasus, and are ready to help mediate the situation.

Originally posted by Absence of Self
2. The southern Ukraine is on the brink of all out revolt due to the governments support for Georgia and ...

Confirmed in part by Russian, Ukrainian and Crimean sources. This is talking about Crimea - it was historically part of Russia and is populated mostly by Russians, but was gifted to Ukraine by Khuschev in the 60's. There have been talks of it separating from Ukraine for 15 years now.

It is not however on the "brink". There is some minor unrest, but do not expect any violence.

Originally posted by Absence of Self
3. The Georgian pilot captured by the Russians yesterday is being interrogated with the help of a translator since the man only speaks English!!!

Unconfirmed reports of this have been in the Russian news for over 12 hours now. Nothing confirmed by the reporters, the government or the military yet - so right now this is a rumor.

It is said that the pilot and another captured Western mercenary (on the ground near Zare in South Ossetia) have been transfered to Vladikavkaz in Russia.

Originally posted by Absence of Self
Has that last one been mentioned anywhere??

These are reports mainly from the Russian side:

RIA news
Lenta.ru news
Rosbalt news

[edit on 10-8-2008 by maloy]