Georgia declares war

Let me take a moment here to remind everyone to stay on topic. This is a serious matter, and we are here to discuss the war, not snipe at each other.

reply to post by FredT

Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira
Maloy, a quick question, since your Russian...

Could you have a look through this article and see what it says in regards to the Russian Air Force loosing a Tu-22 in Ossetia?
www.lenta.ru...

If it's not too much trouble



Nothing on Tu-22 on the entire website. Where did you get the info? I doubt Russia is using the Tu-22 in this conflict - it is a bit of an overkill. And I doubt even more that Georgians would be able to shoot it down.

According to him there was no mention of any TU-22 loss.

reply to post by Animal


Hi Animal.

Thanks for that, I hadn't seen it before.

The thing is though that it doesn't actually say what material support the Georgians have received since they definitely aren't toodling about in Abrams.

So far all we have seen directly is old soviet hardware and a few bits of modern German assault kit via the released media. Still no word on the AA though, and they have taken down a Tu-22 with something...

(actually was it a 22 or a 22m? ...The backfire would be a much harder mark then the the blinder and i think the reports only refer to a Tu-22 blinder.)

Also in the news... possibly good, i think not. Liveleak are reporting that the EU-Russia center in Brussels are saying that Georgia will not have any volunteers to pull their nuts out of the fire and that John Pike of Globalsecurity.org is reporting that Russia hopes for a more direct confrontation with the west but normal people hope they wont get it...

"The Russians hope he will get more than verbal support," he said. "The Russians want a more direct confrontation with the West and I hope the Bush administration has the wisdom not to give them that satisfaction."

Eh? Wot? Has everyone lost their minds?

But then again...

globalsecurity.org are also reporting that Georgia has liberated South Ossetia according to Saakashvili... so there....


Faster than me FredT
I had just realised that myself.
There is a large difference between those two birds.


[edit on 9-8-2008 by Absence of Self]

Checked... Looks to be a blinder.
Tu-22 with no sub designation according to the article.
Translated google version of www.lenta.ru.

[edit on 9-8-2008 by Absence of Self]

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
The US and NATO would be INSANE to help Georgia in any way militarily. They have nothing to gain and everything to lose. They would also be crushed by Russian military.

what's with all the praise over the Russian military .. I thought the United States had the 'most powerful military in the world' .. I can understand people saying that NEITHER country wants to fight each other because they can both potentially cause massive worldwide damage .. but why are people speaking of Russia's military as if it's this untouchable machine ?

I would say a more accurate picture is "Russia and NATO would crush each other."

NATO forces are well equipped, and the Russian forces are exceptionally trained and many are battle hardened.

Both sides are huge in numbers.

... and don't forget, both sides are nuclear powers.

For a start it seems like no one knows who really started all this.
The BBC said Georgia shot down two Russian planes, but that was for a response to the bombings. The Georgian president said on BBC World it was an unprovoked attack and that Russia cross boarders without permission. I am not sure if Georgia had attacked the planes for that but according to the BBC it was after they were attacked and that is how it panned out. The Georgian president spoke directly to BBC World so I am not sure if he is lying or the other Russian media is. So someone is wrong here and the stories seem a bit jumbled up.

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


That is exactly how (world) wars simply have to start...

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


Actually it started when Georgian artillery shelling of Tskhinvali started on the night of August 7th and 8th.

I don't think its a praise of the Russian military per se, but is more a reflection of the balance of forces in the situation and perceived justification.

I know a lot of people think that Russia is effectively militarily weak etc but it really does not reflect the situation on the ground.

The simple fact of the matter is that Russia could, if it wanted to, crush Georgia to a thin filmy mess but it's holding back to a large degree.

(which just leads to more questions really since that is unexpected, not traditional Russian military doctrine and something of a novelty..possibly those nasty westerners influencing Russian thinking)

You need to bear in mind that a lot of Russia's military has been effectively hidden and subject to a lot of derogatory comments for a long time from a western perspective with a continuous media barrage of 'we have the strongest military in the world' from a lot of countries respectively.

Hint: America and china say exactly the same thing to their own people and governments will not get very far with saying "These people are our enemies and could kick our arses... Horrah!" etc,

(except maybe the British since its something of a tradition to be the underdog here)

A lot of people might like to think that Russia cannot actually stand for something or do it well since they have been the enemy for such a long time, but the truth is that none of 'us' (me, you, if you are honest, any other man or even the random bloke down the road) is willing to stand by and justify what is effectively a civilian slaughter.

I am beginning to suspect that there is also a bit of Stalingrad's memory in there too and the people haven't changed, just their government..

Well, either that or I'm just drunk again, who knows. I can't be breathalised in my own flat.

It's funny, in sad way, how history repeats itself sometimes. Not saying it will this time, but it does happen.

It wasn't too far from here that the first WW, the War To End All Wars, was started. It began with a little conflict between two regions of no real worldly consequences, and then grew to engulf the western world. Each side called on it's allies, and soon enough, the big boys showed up.

Lets all hope this isn't the case now. Bad as it is, it could get a hell of a lot worse.

STOP MAKING NEW THREADS....
there is a thread already and people been following and updating since 7th.
Or your plan was to get free points lol

reply to post by NGC2736


Lets hope then that no one decides the best course of action is an assassination...

I would be entirely willing to bet that a large proportion do not even know what that implies and i dread to think of the number of people on the yahoo news groups currently thinking that Russia has invaded the US.

Yes, large fights start small, thats the way of things.
I only hope that as unfortunate as it is for the people involved that is the way it stays.
Fortunately everyone within a thousand mile radius thus far appears to be thinking the same thing.

Originally posted by Absence of Self
reply to post by Denied

 

What?!?!?!

Did that man just admit that this entire thing was planned, a long term declaration of war by who?

I've seen some weird behavior from politicians before but... WTF?

Good article btw.

This is actually really alarming. Disclosures have talked about war with Russian and China, even India, and the PTB carving up those real estates for their own nefarious purposes. We have to see how it goes, and hope this blows over and cooler heads prevail. Otherwise I could see the war of contracts beginning and the start of massive world depopulation.

Edit to add: and disclosures say this has been planned for some time, as if all the leaders are in on it.

[edit on 9-8-2008 by mystiq]

You can always tell when things get serious by who gets shot. I just read a report that a Lt. General, Anatoly Khrulyov (There's a mean sounding name for a career military man), was wounded when units of his 58th army was under fire near Tskhinvali. This was said to have been reported on the Russian State TV Channel.

Source

It's usually a sign of pretty heavy fighting when a fairly high ranking office stops a round, IMO.

Looks like that article has been moved and updated already since its reporting as Page not found..

Reuters main is reporting that the EU presidency (France) has demanded a cease fire. whilst the subtitle being more up to date, is just acknowledging that Abkhazia has got involved.

That article being 40 minutes old and the fact that Abkhazia started its actions about 8 hours ago..

..

An Lt General?
I suppose that's what happens when you lead from the front...odd behavior all round especially given the territorial disposition.

Err.. Yahoo news via Reuters is possibly just getting it wrong again but they say that their photos are Georgian troops..in T-80's with full reactive armor.

[edit on 9-8-2008 by Absence of Self]

Edit two...

Putin has just accused Georgia of war crimes against the civilian population of south Ossetia.

Edit 3,

Thats me.. I'm done for the evening, too far gone to keep up with this any longer. Bad to worse to poo all around.

If something any worse happens when I'm out don't bother telling, I'm sure I'll hear the bang.

[edit on 9-8-2008 by Absence of Self]

[edit on 9-8-2008 by Absence of Self]

As usual, both sides trying to put the blame on each other and justifying their actions.

I just find it unusual for this region to have Russian peace keepers instead of an International peace keepers.

In fact, Georgian president had warned in the past that Russian forces have been building up & gearing for an invasion in their borders.

I just hope that this ends. The number of casualties being reported is somewhat
staggering given the number of days & scope of where it's happening.

its only a matter of time before the "West" as a whole gets full blame for this by those involved. I know they have already stated this but we haven't heard from all her allies yet and those will surely blame the U.S. in some way.

I also wonder how Russia can justify bombing civilians at all and claim they are just defending its own citizens.......do those 80 year old ladies have pull in the Georgian military? The more Russia pushes this.......the more sympothy Georgia will get.

I showed some friends this...

And, they said, that its good that there are at LEAST some wars going on, that the US has nothing to do with...

Originally posted by DavidWright
I also wonder how Russia can justify bombing civilians at all and claim they are just defending its own citizens.......do those 80 year old ladies have pull in the Georgian military? The more Russia pushes this.......the more sympothy Georgia will get.

No way is Georgia getting sympathy, they shelled Tshinvale killing over 1,200 civilians.
Civilian casualties due to Russian attacks is just over 100.

As another poster said, "apples and freaking watermelons".


Georgia started this whole ordeal by intentionally leveling a city, killing over 1,200.

Considering how lethal Russia's military is, just over 100 dead is a pretty restrained response in comparison.

Still though, ANY civilian death is disgusting.

... then again, the Georgians did make sure they destroyed what was left of their reputation by clearing civilian basements with grenades to catch anything they missed with the shelling.

Originally posted by TKainZero
I showed some friends this...

And, they said, that its good that there are at LEAST some wars going on, that the US has nothing to do with...

Wow... that's certainly a sign of the times isn't it... (and the US's reputation).

[edit on 9-8-2008 by johnsky]

reply to post by Absence of Self


Maybe Georgia has some nukes, and this dude is itching to light them up? Who said that WW3 had to start in the Middle East?

Actually, I find it hard to believe that we could be drawn into this thing, unless Russian missles start falling in Iraq. Hey, they could use the oil as much as the rest of the world.