Georgia declares war

reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira


According to the russian commander there were 2 russian planes that got shot down in georgia the status of the pilots is unknown.But the georgians are saying they downed 10 russian planes.

reply to post by johnsky


Over the last 24 hours it seems to be CNN and the other US news sources have been adopting a pretty strong pro-Georgian slant. They've stopped discussing the 1000-1500 people killed in the initial Georgian attack on the Ossetians pretty much entirely, and are now only reporting on Georgian civilian casualties. They're playing clips of Saakashvili's plea for aid in English repeatedly.

The UK media have been predictably pro-Georgian, including the left leaning publications. But the UK media (including the BBC) seem to have been beating the "OMG the Russians are coming!" drum for a couple of years now, much more so than the US media.

I seriously do not understand how people link this small conflict to New world Order and World War three,- yes its a war, and yes its Russia and perhaps even yes the superpowers will need to comment upon it politically...
...but no, this does not signal anything significant towards NWO or WW3!!

Originally posted by Absence of Self
Can you tell me if the reputed figures were accurate since it does appear to be somewhat disputed and I honestly cannot tell?

It is disputed. The rebels carried off the wounded and the dead. Because of lack of time only a part was left lying on the hill. They are burried them all around the hill for many miles, and they are still being dug up. It is unlikely we will ever know the total.

Originally posted by Absence of Self
Don't suppose you would happen to now if the Georgian regulars have access to western AA hardware

Probably not. They have Russian AA hardware which is still in fairly good order.

Originally posted by Absence of Self
rumors that Georgia has been western armed

Well their armor - tanks, artilley, BMPs are from the Soviet Era. However the infantry is at least partially armed with U.S. - sourced assault rifles and gear.

Originally posted by Absence of Self
but there appears to be no evidence of this (apart from one or two G36's which anyone could buy) and the only thing not actually televised is the Anti air?

Very little direct war footage is available at this time. Saakashvilli has placed a black-out on Georgian media, and the only news and footage out of Georgia is by the government.

A Backfire?
Does the 11th Air even have those?

What the hell was that carrying?

With regards to the media slant.. well really, what were you expecting?

Ingredients for a media mess (which by the way has now been shutdown in Georgia unless you are in favor of a suicidal war):

1 "Democracy" + Russia.

It doesn't matter who started to murder who, we all know that those evil red commies want to take over the world etc.

The problem being that Georgia isn't very good at media control or propaganda and government departments tend to forget that there are more media outlets than just those they would prefer.

Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira
Maloy, a quick question, since your Russian...

Could you have a look through this article and see what it says in regards to the Russian Air Force loosing a Tu-22 in Ossetia?
www.lenta.ru...

If it's not too much trouble

Nothing on Tu-22 on the entire website. Where did you get the info? I doubt Russia is using the Tu-22 in this conflict - it is a bit of an overkill. And I doubt even more that Georgians would be able to shoot it down.

Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira

The two planes Russia lost in the opening stages of this conflict were most likely Frogfoots (Su-25), low altitude ground support aircraft (which are not supersonic), or older Yakolev's/MiG's like the MiG-23, probably on forward observation.

(The aircraft haven't been positively identified by either side so far).

Actually, the planes have been identified.

Tu-22 Bomber


And the Su-25 (Basically the equivalent to the American A-10)

MOSCOW (AFP)--Russia's defense ministry confirmed on Saturday the loss of two of its planes in fighting over Georgia, the first time Moscow has confirmed Georgian claims to have downed Russian military planes.

"Up to today, the Russian side has lost two planes," defense ministry spokesman Anatoly Nogovitsyn said at a televised briefing, without giving details.

Earlier Russian news agency reports, citing Russian peacekeepers, said the downed planes were a Tu-22 bomber and an Su-25 fighter jet.
Source

[edit on 9-8-2008 by West Coast]

reply to post by West Coast


Whoo...
Bingo West Coast.
They did take down a backfire.

I don't know whether to be impressed or even more worried.

Umm...

Can we please leave Afghanistan out of this?
It does after all gave very little to do with the current situation.

(Well, not unless Georgia has started to recruit Mujahideen or something)

P.s.
The Ossetians are reporting that they just repelled an attack of 12 Georgian tanks on southern Tskhinvali and captured one.
They also say that the Georgian's are using their remaining Su-25's to prevent civilians escaping by bombing the evacuees....

So much for the gentleman's war...

Originally posted by Fulcrum29
LOL what an ignorant post.

So, there is in fact no truth to what I said?

The Mujahadeen/afghan force that the soviets faced in their Afghan war in the 80's was 300,000+ men strong. Soviets lost only 14,000 men and killed over 1,000,000 Afghans.

Ironically, the soviets also collapsed not long after that conflict.

As for how many soviets died as a result of that conflict, that is a well guarded secret that no one honestly can say they know with 100% certainty.

When U.S. faced a similarly sized force in Vietnam the U.S. lost 60,000 men

And killed nearly 10x the amount in the whole process. US navy SEALs alone had a kill ratio of 200:1.

yet Soviet only lost 14,000 in Afghanistan.

Soviet sources say 14-15,000, but since the Soviet Russians were well known for hiding facts and figures, I believe that number to have been much higher.

I guess using your logic and comparisons that means the Soviet Union was far more powerful militarily than the USA.

Do not confuse your own envious wishes with reality. tee hee

[edit on 9-8-2008 by West Coast]

Guys...

Can we please not turn this into a pissing up the wall contest?

People are getting killed in large numbers here and really... my team is better than your team is something that belongs in a playground.

Abkhazia now shows footage of Katyusha's on the Georgian border and are claiming that they have sunk a Georgian ship in their waters..
(No saying which one... Georgia doesn't have too many to start with)

--==UPDATE==--

The Georgian offensive to claim a major highway in Tshinvale has been repelled. According to local sources, 12 Georgian tanks were hit, no reports on Separatist losses. One Georgian tank has been reported to be commandeered by Separatist forces. Russian forces are still holding their points, no reports yet on losses on their side either.

--=======--


In response to another poster, I guess the western media slant shows us where the western powers opinions lay.

With repetitive reporting of a request for western intervention, and continuous reports of only Georgian casualties, watch the west carefully, this may be an intentional last minute attempt to rally public support for an intervention.

I really hope they aren't going to. It would get ugly for both sides.
This is unfolding so darn quickly...

Just a few days ago nothing... and now all of this.
If you're a praying man, nows a good time to exercise it.
For the atheists, we've got some serious disinformation to weed through and sort out, we've gotta keep this story straight.

Lol.

Not just Atheists.

I would have said that anyone interested in an accurate historical record would have had a lot of misinformation to wade through.

It appears that there should be a significant international political consequence attributed to this.
The results of which are by no means immediately clear.

Time will tell, clearly depending on what is left to pick up .

Sorry, edited for Hideous English.

Another edit..
Bloody hell, the Ossetians are now saying that this is the 5th Georgian assault on the capital.
May as well hire Muhammad Saeed al-Sahhaf as their PR man if this is what they claim is a request for peace.


[edit on 9-8-2008 by Absence of Self]

[edit on 9-8-2008 by Absence of Self]

Wow...

Nothing is calming down yet....

Defon con 2 here we come?

Pretty much, something stupid is going to happen, the USA will get involved once again, you know this had to happen before the elections, and somewhere in all of this Russia will get pissed off at the US, pretty much your going to see the US olympic teams pulled out of the Olympics and yea, this is going to be big boys, so get ready for it.

The beginning of WW3? No I don't think so. The shape of things of to come? Perhaps.
The state of War declared by Georgia is for 15 days from today or so I have read so perhaps things will calm down before then. Its a very complex situation over there. Ossetia is not recognised by the rest of the world as an independent nation. Only Russia recognises it as such. So the invasion of Ossetia by Russian forces could be seen as the violation of Georgia's border.
Georgia sees Ossetia as part of their country and believes ( rightly or wrongly ) that this is an internal matter and none of Russias business.
Russia on the other hand must see this as a perfect opportunity to show the world what their resurgent military is capable of.
They have the hardware and the aircraft but I will be interested to see what Russias conscript army can do against a vastly inferior and much smaller army but an Army defending its home soil is not an Army to be underestimated. It will also be quite interesting to see if Russia has the determination to push into Georgia proper, as I'm sure the Kremlin is itching to do, teach those pesky Georgians a lesson ............ or not.
If they do push into Georgia itself then we may see something more serious unfold, Also has anyone else noticed that the old KGB warhorse Putin seems to be taking charge of the Georgian situation as PM and not Medvedev as President? Putin just cant seem to stop strutting his stuff on the world stage. A future Russian Dictator? Or perhaps he already is and we just haven't twigged yet.
Russia cannot be trusted, their motives in this war go deeper than just avenging 10 Russian peace keepers. They cannot stand the fact that they have no hold over Georgia now that they no longer need Russias energy. And Georgia have been thumbing their nose at the Kremlin since they gained energy independence from them.
Russia has been itching to stamp down Georgia for a long time, all we can do is sit back and wait and see how far they will go.

Originally posted by Absence of Self
reply to post by purplemonkey

 

I don't honestly know but i suspect its doubtful really.

From what I've seen from the current footage Georgia is mostly armed with Soviet hardware dating form the 70's. (T-72's, T-62's BM-13 Katyusha etc.) A few individual troops look to be carrying G-36's etc but nothing miraculous.

Read this article:

Did the U.S. Prep Georgia for War with Russia?

Those of you doing the translating from Russian sources can you clear up one thing for me?

You mention that a TU-22 was shot down. Was it a TU-22 or a TU-22M? The -22 is known as the "Blinder" or the -22M which is the 'Backfire" It makes more sence if its the Blinder in this case.