The True Face Of The Dalai Lama

1860 Malte Brun Map - China Japan - Hong Kong - Asia
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Map of China, Curma, Siam, Annam & C. 11" x 11"
printed in 1900.
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1910 Vintage MAP ASIA China India Russian Empire
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Now, show me evidences that Tibet was once an independent state.


[edit on 14-8-2008 by gs001]

Originally posted by gs001
Now, show me evidences that Tibet was once an independent state.


[edit on 14-8-2008 by gs001]

To quote Frosty the Snowman: Happy Birthday!

1680 Pieter van der Aa, Holland



American Armory Maps

1700 Guillaume de L'Isle, France


American Armory Maps

1860 Samuel Augustus Mitchell, USA


David Rumsey Map Collection

1942 Rand McNally Co. , USA


David Rumsey Map Collection

Men of Peace - It's bigger than your lust for territory and lust for power. China has a lot to offer but wiping a culture off the map is a very base pursuit.

reply to post by round_eyed_dog

interesting
but please show me which parts in your maps can be called Tibet?
point it out for me, OK?

Originally posted by gs001
reply to post by round_eyed_dog

 

interesting
but please show me which parts in your maps can be called Tibet?
point it out for me, OK?

The images would be too huge to post here, but if you go to the links all of the maps have a really cool zoom feature.
I chose these particular maps specifically for this feature, you may want to turn off your pop up blocker if you have one though.


[edit on 14-8-2008 by round_eyed_dog]

reply to post by round_eyed_dog

I hope Mr. Dalai can find his "independent state-Tibet"
on your map.

Originally posted by gs001
reply to post by round_eyed_dog

 

I hope Mr. Dalai can find his "independent state-Tibet"
on your map.

Sorry, I'm a bit lost here.

Are you having trouble using the interface?

Are you trying to say the Dalai Lama is not net savvy?

Are you inferring that I broke out my compass and forged these maps?

show 1680 map of america and any country in europe,it doesnt make any sense,during the recent 200 year ,all countries acknowlege tibet is part of china,and most major maps show that clearly.has any country ever acknowleged tibet an independent state?

wikipedia

Historical Views From Non-Chinese Sources
The 1912 edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia states that “ During the eighteenth century the Chinese Emperor, K'ien-lung [i.e.Qianlong], began to establish his supremacy over Tibet; already in 1725 two high Chinese commissioners had been appointed to control the temporal affairs of the country, and in 1793 an imperial edict ordered that future Dalai Lamas were to be chosen from the names of children drawn from a "golden urn". ” “ The secular administration of Tibet includes a council (ka hia) of four ministers (kalon or kablon) of the third rank of Chinese officials, elected as a rule by the Peking government, on presentation by the Chinese amban...there are six military commanders (taipêng), with the fourth degree of Chinese rank. ” “ The Chinese administration of Tibet includes an imperial resident (chu tsang ta ch'ên) or amban (ngang pai) with an assistant resident (pang pan ta ch'ên)...The imperial resident is Chao Ehr-fung (appointed March, 1908)[4]

wikipedia

The September 1903 issue of National Geographic

described it thus: “ Since the fifteenth century all power, civil and spiritual, has been nominally in the hands of the Dalai Lama, but China maintains a Manchu resident and an army. Until the Dalai Lama’s 22 year, the government is in the hands of a regent appointed by the Emperor of China. In order to avoid strife in selecting a Dalai Lama, the electoral council places three strips of paper with the names of three boys in an urn, and the Manchu resident removes one with a small staff. The dalai lama’s council, in whose hands is the actual power, embraces four so-called “Galons” appointed by the Emperor of China. The administration is in the hands of a closed aristocracy, and bribery and corruption are nearly universal.[5] ”

The 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica traces Chinese dominion over Tibet to Mongol-ruled China i.e. the Yuan Dynasty, continuing to the Ming Dynasty and the Qing Dynasty: “ Kublai Khan conquered all the east of Tibet...Kublai invested Phagspa with sovereign power over (1) Tibet proper, comprising the thirteen districts of U and Tsang, (2) Khalil and (3) Amdo. From this time the Sakya-pa lamas became the universal rulers of Tibet...[Later, Chyang Chub Gyaltshan] subdued Tibet proper and Kham… and with the approval of the court of Peking established a dynasty...When the Mongol dynasty of China passed away, the Mings confirmed and enlarged the dominion of the Tibetan rulers, recognizing at the same time the chief lamas of the eight principal monasteries of the country…During the minority of the fifth (really the third) Dalai Lama, when the Mongol king Tengir To… intervened in the affairs of the country, the Pan-ch'en Lo-sang Ch'o-kyi Gyal-ts'ang lama ... then applied for help to the first [Qing Dynasty] Manchu emperor of China, who had just ascended the throne...The Chinese government in 1653 confirmed the Dalai Lama in his authority, and he paid a visit to the emperor at Peking. The Mongol Khoshotes in 1706 and the Sungars in 1717 interfered again in the succession of the Dalai lama, but the Chinese army finally conquered the country in 1720, and the present system of government was established...[6] ” The Qing Dynasty Chinese rule over the Tibet was uninterrupted in the next centuries: “ In 1872–1873 some attempt was made by Indian officials to open up trade with Tibet…in 1886 a mission was organized to proceed to Lhasa. The Chinese… granted a passport to this mission...In 1890 a treaty was concluded, and trade regulations under this treaty in 1893; but the negotiations were carried on with the Chinese authorities... [In 1908] The Dalai Lama was now summoned to Peking, where he obtained the imperial authority to resume his administration…the Chinese amban in Lhasa …summoned the Chinese troops to enter the city. They did so, and the Dalai Lama fled to India in February 1910…and he was deposed by imperial decree.[6]

” According to historian Zahiruddin Ahmad, since at least the 18th century, when the Qing Government was setting up its local government structure and promulgated laws for the governing, Beijing has, in the words of a foreign missionary who witnessed, had "absolute dominion over Tibet"[7]. The Chinese Resident Ministers in Tibet, namely Ambans, were bestowed power which, according to the Imperial Ordinance promulgated in 1793, was on a par with the local spiritual leaders of Dalai Lamas and Panchen Lamas[8]. According to the Ordinance, the Ambans were in absolute charge of financial, diplomatic, and trade matters.

wikipedia

According to an article by the Tibetologist Melvyn C. Goldstein: [9] “

The 1906 Anglo-Chinese Convention reaffirmed the Chinese overlord position in Tibet. In 1907, an Anglo-Russian treaty internationalized this treaty. ”
“ The [British] invasion of Tibet and the Lhasa Convention of 1904 dramatically altered Chinese policy toward Tibet. Until then, the Qing Dynasty had evinced no interest in directly administering or Sinicizing Tibet...Beijing got the British troops to leave Tibetan...Britain's casual invasion of Tibet, therefore, stimulated China to protect what it felt were its national interests in Tibet by beginning a program to integrate Tibet culturally, economically, and politically more closely with the rest of China. ” “ [The Dalai Lama] had been "deposed" by the Chinese Government in 1904...In 1908, he went to Beijing to visit the Emperor and Court. Arguing that the amban did not faithfully transmit his views to Beijing, the Dalai Lama requested permission to petition the throne directly (i.e., to bypass the amban)...[In 1910] China again deposed the Dalai Lama and expanded its efforts to expand its real control in Tibet...

wikipedia

The 13th Dalai Lama, for example, knelt before the Empress Dowager and the young Emperor while he delivered his petition in Beijing. He was awarded the humiliating title of "Loyally Submissive Vice-Regent", and ordered to follow China's commands and communicate with the Emperor only through the Chinese Amban in Lhasa.[10][11]The kneeling before the Emperor followed the 17th-century precedent in the case of the 6th Dalai Lama.[12]

Originally posted by haidian
show 1680 map of America and any country in Europe, it doesn’t make any sense, during the recent 200 year ,all countries acknowledge Tibet is part of china, and most major maps show that clearly. has any country ever acknowledged Tibet an independent state?

As I showed here:

“The First contacts with Tibetans with the outside world, so far as can be demonstrated by OUTSIDE were two embassies sent to CHINA in 608 and 609 a.d.”

The Tibetan Empire in Central Asia
By Christopher I. Beckwith
Published by Princeton University Press, 1993
ISBN 0691024693, 9780691024691

Indeed 1400 years Ago China itself did so.

Due to the nature of your claims, and the fact that any opposing camp is stating that Genocide has and is maybe continuing to take place, due to the gravitas of this claim and counter claim, Humanity deserves us only to discuss this in a Factual and most truthful way.

We have agreed therefore not to use Wikipedia or other sources unless the link and source is the most comprehensive and best regarded within the world on a scholarly level, or such like.

You keep refusing or alluding to this. Rather than post page after page of Wiki quotes, takes my contentions for your stance, and if you can with other information that is of equal worth , show me where I am wrong.

Why do you refuse to do this?

Are you not able to?

Also you still have not explained when Col Young husband Invaded Tibet with British Troops in the early 20th C, he invaded TIBET not china.

Again as stated before are you actually stating that Britain invaded China then?

I also pointed out the Russian Pact and also the Simla Agreement.

These are not "wiki" quotes, but actions by Nation States on others, and in legal partnership's drawn up with other Nation States.

There is no record in British parliamentary or military history of Britain invading China only Tibet!

The Russians wanted an agreement with the Tibetans and not the Chinese.

Is the conspiracy to hide the true cover-up, that in fact Tibet has always been a part of china, therefore supported by both the British Empire and Stalinist Russia?
Both Rusia and the UK have changed their history to keep this conspiracy going?

Explain please I am intrigued!

Please provide sources as I have, if this is true it would be the biggest conspiracy that I have ever known, spanning hundreds of years, involving the worlds major superpowers at that time, this conspiracy being passed down from Monarchy to Revolutionaries within the same country, who though all keep this one secret, age to age.

WOW I think me and you need to work on this new topic immediately, please at once provide the proof of this so we can inform the world and have the best expose in modern journalism!

You are deranged or believe this, or are paid to say this stuff.

That is all I can conclude from your obvious lack of any grasp on the history of this situation.

Before posting any more "wiki" points please as asked repeated ally, show me sources and proof, from a peer reviewed, scholarly or International Legal Organization or National historic source, that is definitative, to counter the points I have already brought up.

When I post my Op/Ed later I am sure you will be happy to learn I have included the proof from such sources that in fact China "Surrendered" to Tibet in its history. At this time Tibet had "occupied" china and only by the present of a princess to the Tibetan Monarchy at the time was china given its freedom again.

How can a country invade itself? or again is the conspiracy soo deep that even the Chinese historical and definitive sources wrong?

If you do posit that it means all the information you have provided soo far is circumspect.

You are just digging deeper holes PRC spin man!

Please firstly as asked a few pages ago provide evidence as requested that proves my contribution here wrong.

Kind Regards,

Elf.

[edit on 15-8-2008 by MischeviousElf]

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
How can a country invade itself? or again is the conspiracy soo deep that even the Chinese historical and definitive sources wrong?

How can it?.

Please refer to the Chinese civil war. Please Refer to the American Civil war. Please refer to the Taiping rebellion.

How can a country "invade" itself?. The question has ALREADY been answered and your statement is a strawman argument designed to create some ambiguouty in the discussion.

Also, the Chinese view is that Chinese history extends from ALL ethnic groups within China. Chinese doesn't mean the Han ethnic majority to Chinese people its means the 56 ethnic groups which have a long interconnected history together hence their argument that Tibet and China have already been one is true. You attempted denial and counter argument based on a different contention does not counter this argument put forward

Also you still have not explained when Col Young husband Invaded Tibet with British Troops in the early 20th C, he invaded TIBET not china.

Which part are you refering to?

You keep refusing or alluding to this. Rather than post page after page of Wiki quotes

Read the footnotes of the Wikipedia links. Is that not what you call "scholarly" examples?

I also pointed out the Russian Pact and also the Simla Agreement.

A Russian pact which re-enforces the Idea that Tibet is a part of China and the Simla Agreement which was signed between Britain and a supposed country it DID NOT EVEN RECOGNISED. Now what is the legal ground this agreement supposedly stands on?

The Russians wanted an agreement with the Tibetans and not the Chinese.

Where is this supposed agreement?. What is your source on this agreement?. I have not seen such a claim made by you let alone a link to verify the information




[edit on 15-8-2008 by chinawhite]

I could not pass up posting this news article in this thread...

Chinawhite and Haidian, you should both find this article interesting as it touches on both your topic of Tibet and mine of China's mistreatment of it's people.

China Sentences 2 Elderly Women To Labor Camp For Protest Plans

BEIJING — Two elderly Chinese women who applied to hold a protest during the Olympics were ordered to spend a year in a labor camp, a relative said Wednesday. Police later squelched a pro-Tibet demonstration.

The women were still at home three days after being officially notified they would have to serve a yearlong term of REEDUCATION through labor, but were under surveillance by a government-backed neighborhood group, said Li Xuehui, the son of one of the women.

Li said no cause was given for the order to imprison his 79-year-old mother, Wu Dianyuan, and her neighbor Wang Xiuying, 77.

"Wang Xiuying is almost blind and disabled. What sort of re-education through labor can she serve?" Li said in a telephone interview. "But they can also be taken away at any time."

Reeducation through labor? Two women over 70? For applying for a protest?

Like I pointed out earlier, the two of you may want to look WITHIN if you are so concerned about abuses and the need for humanitarian change than without.

[edit on 20-8-2008 by Animal]

Originally posted by Animal
Reeducation through labor? Two women over 70? For applying for a protest?

Nicely done Animal.


So this case where the edvidence is verbal confirmation from a relative and no record of this case in Chinese files?. Even "rights group said the threat of prison appeared to be an intimidation tactic.". So police are POSSIBLY trying to intimindate someone. The emphasis on the word possibly

Two elderly Chinese women could face a year in a labour camp after repeated attempts to hold a public protest, a close relative has said.

Chinese authorities said they had no record of the sentences.

news.bbc.co.uk...

rights group said the threat of prison appeared to be an intimidation tactic.

The Public Security Bureau had no immediate comment. A spokeswoman for the Beijing reeducation through labor bureau said, "We have no records of these two names in our system."

news.yahoo.com...

Originally posted by chinawhite

Originally posted by Animal
Reeducation through labor? Two women over 70? For applying for a protest?

Nicely done Animal.


So this case where the evidence is verbal confirmation from a relative and no record of this case in Chinese files?. Even "rights group said the threat of prison appeared to be an intimidation tactic.". So police are POSSIBLY trying to intimidate someone. The emphasis on the word possibly

Let me clarify this point of yours for the casual reader:

From your BBC source:

Wu Dianyuan, 79, and Wang Xiuying, 77, had applied repeatedly for permission to protest in Beijing's much feted but little used Olympics "protest parks".

They remain at home but could be sent away immediately if they make any more fuss, said Ms Wu's son, Li Xuehui.

Intimidation, sure it is without a doubt. The government is trying to intimidate them into NOT speaking their minds and threating them with "re-education through Labor" Sounds real humanitarian doesn't it?

And yes the crux of this nasty little biscuit is "possibly". They have been told they will be "re-educated" if they don't 'sit down and shut up'.

Two elderly Chinese women could face a year in a labour camp after repeated attempts to hold a public protest, a close relative has said.

Chinese authorities said they had no record of the sentences.

news.bbc.co.uk...

rights group said the threat of prison appeared to be an intimidation tactic.

The Public Security Bureau had no immediate comment. A spokeswoman for the Beijing reeducation through labor bureau said, "We have no records of these two names in our system."

news.yahoo.com...

No record of sentences that have not yet been issued. Makes sense doesn't it?

Then there is this little tidbit from the BBC source you offered up:

The penalty of "re-education through labour" allows police to imprison a suspect for up to four years of labour without a formal charge or trial.

No charge = no sentence perhaps?

Then from your Yahoo source:

Beijing has used the existence of the protest areas as a way to defend its promise to improve human rights in China that was crucial to its bid to win the games.

Some 77 applications were lodged to hold protests but none went ahead, and rights groups say the zones were just a way for the Chinese government to put on an appearance of complying with international standards. A handful who sought a permit to demonstrate was taken away by security officials, rights groups said.

My point is the same, you come here with haidain to point out the evils of Tibet when your country is full of human rights abuses. Continue to deny it and deflect the criticism all you want, it will not change the truth.