The True Face Of The Dalai Lama

This HTML script is the worst. Finished writing and posted ti only to see that I had this large quote box everywhere

Animal well done a very well sourced and balanced picture of the truth of the situation star from me!

reply to post by chinawhite & haiden all Posts


Well guys you have not responded at all to my posts in page 4?

Except to talk about making posts shorter and longer etc?

Anyhow as I Posted Corroborated evidence, provided by the International Council of Jurists, within a document that was presented to the UN you obviously cant.

The source is irrefutable.

The place of discussion the gathering of all the nations of the world.

This document proves that Nuns and Monks are being tortured by the Chinese.

It also proves that there has been a continued effort on the Chinese to destroy the religious, cultural and social structure of the Tibetan people.

In this UN document too, you will see the true history of the boundaries and nation State reality of an Independent Tibet.

In fact Im sure the reason that you guys are soo focused since my post on the territorial issue that wording, within the UN must have hit a nerve.

You are as aware as I am that in fact, in most of the long and distinctly separate Nation of Tibet from China, Tibetan boundaries and borders have been re written less times than China as a whole.

Therefore as you have been unable to point to any evidence that this information is incorrect we can now all state with confidence, that as pointed out in the Document to the UN and by the Scholarly work by over 20 experts the book “genocide”

1. Genocide has occurred in Tibet after the Chinese Invasion
2. At least a Million Tibetans Disappeared after the Chinese invasion.
3. Current reports indicate serious Sexual abuses and Torture by Armed Soldiers of the PRC against innocent woman and Monks and Nuns.
4. This is not a point of argument. International Legal investigative bodies such as one of my sources the International Committee of Jurists has confirmed this.

Therefore why the discussion anymore. Did you not get the flavor of my post?

Thank you for making me get some books out of the Attic and research notes! I do need to brush up on this topic.

THIS FORUM WILL NOT BE USED TO SUPPORT GENOCIDE!

So having said that, as I mentioned in my post pg4

I will only use sources that are as irrefutable as available on this issue. I call into doubt therefore any sources in this discussion concerning Rense, Wiki etc.

If you have the information to argue against the proof and claims I have put forward of a similar regard and trustworthiness please do.

If not just realise that by arguing with Animal about his sources just shows the hole you are digging for your argument.

Otherwise already intellectually, it is plain to all reading this thread you have lost this attempt at state propaganda my friend.

So to continue in the spirit of how I started, and especially as you seem very very very confused about this particular issue and the truth, I will now cite what I believe to be the most accurate and scholarly independent study into the reality of the Tibetan State since 1913.

There could be more recent studies done but I have read this one much, as its depth and complexity to a lay person is profound, it did take several readings before I “got it”. I suggest anyone who wants a truthful if heavy read on this subject get this book (library is free!) and not kept up to breast on the study of this issue since around 2000.

Due though to the special privileges granted the author, their very specialised expertise in this area I doubt very much it has been surpassed in its detail, scholarly nature, sources and representation of facts.

It has been much peer reviewed and cited as a source in further study of this issue internationally.

A better source than Wiki I believe my friend?

“In 1912- 1913, The 13th Dalai lama returned to Tibet from exile in India (see map 1). His Ragtag volunteer force expelled all Chinese officials and troops from Tibet, re establishing his rule, and began a thirty nine year period in which Tibet held control over its own internal and external affairs. China never accepted this state of affairs, and the Republican and Kuomintang governments worked to restore Chinese control. They were unsuccessful, however, and when Chiang Kai Shek fled to Taiwan in 1949. the Tibetan government alone still controlled Tibet.”

This is something you seem to miss out in your ”history” of the Tibetan/Chinese situation, that for many hundreds of years the Chinese have been trying to regain the strategically and miner ally rich from the Tibetan people.

And further;
“It really does show the conflicting “stories” of both camps so is the well balanced source worldwide I believe.

“The New People’s Republic of China continued the Koumintang’s Tibet policy and set as an immediate goal the reintegration of Tibet with the “motherland”. In October 1950 it launched military offensives which quickly defeated the Tibetan forces, and in may 1951 the Tibetan Government, under the authority of the sixteen Point Agreement, in which Tibet for the first time in its long history formally accepted Chinese sovereignty, albeit with regional Autonomy”

A History of Modern Tibet, 1913-1951: The Demise of the Lamaist State
By Melvyn C. Goldstein, Gelek Rimpoche
Published by University of California Press, 1991
ISBN 0520075900, 9780520075900
A History of Modern Tibet

I also find it very confusing that if indeed as you state Tibet has always been a part of the Chinese Country why when did these other world powers in modern history all accept Tibet as an separate and distinct nation state to the China?

Why would that be soo?

Why do you not mention in your Propaganda about the continued and repeated efforts by China to invade Tibet.
The hegemony there before the Cultural revolution, and even before the revolution of governance that happened in China prior to that?

Now again using some REAL sources and Information, below Is a short modern history lesson on the Tibetan issue, very concise but ideal for here;

“1902 Rumours reach the Viceroy of India, Lord Curzon, that the Russians have signed a secret treaty with the Tibetans. Preparations begin for a British Military invasion of Tibet.

1903-1904 Colonel Francis Young husband marches with 3000 British troops to Gyanste. The 13th Dalai Lama flees from their approach and shelters in Mongolia and in China. The British withdraw after signing the Anglo-Tibetan Convention which allows them to have trade agreements at Gyanste and Gartok in Western Tibet.

1909 The Dalai Lama returns from exile. Chinese troops occupy parts of Kham (eastern Tibet) and the dalai Lama flees appeals to the British for help.

1910 A Chinese army, led by Zhao Erfing (chao erh-feng) invades Tibet and enters Lhasa. The Dalai Lama flees to India.

1911 In Beijing the Manchu (qing) dynasty is overthrown and the republic of china is established under Yaun Shikai (Yaun Shihk’ai), who declares Tibet, Zinjiang (East Turkistan) and Mongolia to be provinces of China.

1912 Throughout the country Tibetans rise up against the Chinese.
August 12th .The Chinese sign an Surrender Agreement with the Tibetans, and are obliged to return to China via India.

1913 The Dalai Lama returns to Lhasa and issues a Formal Proclamation of Independence in conjunction with Mongolia.

1914 Tibet, Britain and China attend the Simla Convention AS EQUAL POWERS AND INITIAL AND AGREEMENT, NEVER RATIFIED BY China, to settle the Sino-Tibetan border dispute.

1918 Tibetan troops advance to the east and defeat the Chinese. The treaty of Rongbatsa is broken by Eric Teichman.

Contd...



[edit on 13-8-2008 by MischeviousElf]

R esistance and reform in Tibet
By Robert Barnett, Shirin Akiner
Published by C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 1994
ISBN 1850651612, 9781850651611


I quote from … get a coffee too…and see page 14, of the above.

A TRULY BALANCED SCHOLARLY INDEPENDENT SOURCE.

Where’s yours?

So it seems that the following can be now confidently stated as factual and real by myself, from the information I have shown to back this up.

Any rational person would have to agree the following,

Genocide took place in modern history within Tibet by the PRC

The Chinese have through many different stages of their modern Political and Governance changes, always attempted to take Invade Tibet by Force.

The Chinese broke international agreements and treaties in this regard even over 100 years ago.

The independent and separate Nation State of Tibet has been accepted by other nation states. Also written into international legal treaties since after
Europe dragged themselves out of the industrial revolution!

This is as shown beyond conjecture.

However you also seem to be getting very confused about the middle to ancient history of Tibet as not being a separate and distinct entity nation state, as shown above recently, from any Chinese rule.

I really find this point amazing!

I mean much of the world has been re written both with Borders and associations during the time periods I source above. I could understand that this is a complicated issue and it’s easy to not know the truth from the “spin”

Well no one can refute the truth I have posted with credible information about the recent history of the International Legal Status of Modern Tibet, and the invasion and genocide by the PRC.

However now you must see the truth of that,

What I don’t understand is your belief of this “Tibet has always been a part of China” thing.

I again using sources not to be taken at all lightly, some factual evidence that in fact for AT LEAST 1400 YEARS Tibet has had a separate, political entity from the Chinese.

I doubt very much if you knew the following, but it really in one quote proves the futility of your stance and argument.

Therefore read and weep Mr Propaganda Man

“The First contacts with Tibetans with the outside world, so far as can be demonstrated by OUTSIDE were two embassies sent to CHINA in 608 and 609 a.d.”

The Tibetan Empire in Central Asia
By Christopher I. Beckwith
Published by Princeton University Press, 1993
ISBN 0691024693, 9780691024691

Again a source without any come backs, a scholarly and educationally cited reference work.. No doubt to it’s validity.

Anyhow the information in the book is revealed by CHINESE history not Tibetan 

How does that make you feel?

The proof of a separate and distinct Nation of Tibet is proved by the fact that CHINA ACCEPTED THEIR EMBASSIES! Over 1400 years ago.

CASE CLOSED go and spin the Olympics or something both ChinaWhite and Haidian.

Want some more?

Kind Regards,

Elf

[edit on 13-8-2008 by MischeviousElf]

better do some research on how your ancesters killed off their warm hearted local host and herded the few lucky survivors to the wonderful reservation land.and ever since lived on that stolen land.

wikipedia is not a chinese site,and it is the most popular site in the world for people searching for informations,and the information i quoted from wikipedia is from very reliable sources(it is listed in the posts),document written by historians and experts.and that's the reason those informations being quoted by wikipedia,wikipedia it self doesnt write anything.

all the evidence shows tibet had been part of china long before any euopeans arrived in americas.and how dalai lama was developed to the top of tibetan religious sects and how he was selected and appointed by the chinese central government.

practice what you preach,pack up and go back to your ancestral countries and give back this stolen land to its real owners.

Originally posted by haidian
better do some research on how your ancesters killed off their warm hearted local host and herded the few lucky survivors to the wonderful reservation land.and ever since lived on that stolen land.

That would be difficult as I am not American.

However to a point I agree. Genocide took place against both the North and S.American Native People. This is not the point of the Thread, or has any relation to the issue being discussed.

Originally posted by haidian
wikipedia is not a Chinese site, and it is the most popular site in the world for people searching for information’s, and the information i quoted from wikipedia is from very reliable sources(it is listed in the posts),document written by historians and experts. and that's the reason those information’s being quoted by wikipedia,wikipedia it self doesnt write anything.

Again I agree. Not all the content of Wikipedia is 100% reliable, though it is a wonderful source of information. As you correctly state some links are provided to excellent and sometimes definitive sources of information.

On this issue please provide links and information in the manner that I did, using such wikipedia sources if they are of a Scholarly and peer reviewed, cited nature, or from an Organisation such as the UN or such like.

Originally posted by haidian
all the evidence shows Tibet had been part of china long before any Europeans arrived in americas.and how dalai lama was developed to the top of tibetan religious sects and how he was selected and appointed by the Chinese central government.

Did you not read my above post and sources?
I have shown above that indeed Tibet has both in recent, and ancient history, as recognised by China itself, been Internationally and Legally accepted as a separate Nation State.

Please provide a source of information rather than what you say, as I have disproved that information you provided.

Originally posted by haidian
practice what you preach,pack up and go back to your ancestral countries and give back this stolen land to its real owners.

I do live in my Ancestral country, very much so. In fact my ancestors had their land stolen many times!

My ancestors like the Druids also had their Tongues cut out, The teachings being passed on orally, the Romans did it. Just like the Chinese did in modern history during the Genocide by the PRC, to the Lamas and religious masters.

I agree though as you are assuming I am American, that yes in fact the Native Indians should have had better Land Rights, much injustice and harm has been done.

However this is not the Thread or Subject under discussion.

Please provide evidence to the contrary of the following FACTS;

1. Genocide took place in Tibet by the PRC when they invaded in the 1950’s
2. Tibet has been proved to be a Separate Independent Nation State for over 1400 years, and also in recent modern history.
3. Torture is still taking place within Tibet against Nun’s and Monk’s

Also I will later provide links as the above about the following fact;
The Dalai Lama’s Succession or “recognition” has nothing to do with the PRC and never of “China” as a state duty, power, privilege.

In fact this happens, well since the sixth I believe by things such as the following.

Information given by the current Dalai Lama before the death about where to find his reincarnation.

Certain vision quests, and practises by high masters by a very special lake in the Himalayas.

The information from the state oracle.

The Panchen Lama (Who the PRC kidnapped), and his unique relationship, through many lives with the Dalai Lama.

Astrological information.

A search party at the correct time of scholars, Yogis old teachers, friends and court people for the previous Dalai Lama.

If they find a “candidate”

Then there is a series of many and unique in human culture to Tibet “tests”. The child is shown certain objects such as baby rattles, but not one say 5 or six different ones.

One of the rattles, and many objects are used, cups, clothes, books etc in a series of tests for the initial investigation of the child being, the reincarnation of the previous Dalai lama, so being shown these objects the correct Dalai lama always chooses correctly the object that actually belonged to the previous Dalai Lama!

Always!, the current one actually took of a object from the someone who knew the Previous Dalai Lama, that first found him in Amdo province, saying “that’s mine!”, it was!

He also named and ran to cuddle a gentle old monk with the party who had been very close to the previous Dalai Lama.

This behaviour historically in this Lineage in Tibet is one of the most Unanswered and mysterious practises in the world.

This initial test qualifies the child for further investigation which is very thorough.

The Dalai Lamas also always display the following as children, when they are first given long and very complex religious treatises, very very profound metaphysical esoteric knowledge, they all seem to learn these massive texts, in a deep way within a day or “know” the text already. Usually reading it once and they “remember”

It is as if the text and meaning is soo ingrained on their mental continuum, life to life.

There is none. NO HISTORICAL RECENT PRC OR CHINESE INVOLVEMENT IN THE CHOOSING OF THE DALAI LLAMA!

It’s a very mystical, Unique, Important Part of human development and culture should protect and investigate this remarkable process of choosing the Dalai Lama!

Not Destroy the process, which it looks the PRC has already done, by Kidnapping the Panchen Lama, and also that the Dalai Lama can’t be reborn in Tibet and found under PRC occupation and religious oppression.

Any more?

Kind Regards,

Elf

[edit on 13-8-2008 by MischeviousElf]

Originally posted by haidian
all the evidence shows that tibet has been always part of china,anything about tibet is chinese internal affairs.

So are you saying that the torture and repression you are complaining about in Tibet is in fact the fault of China?

Come on man, you can do better than this; can't you?

reply to post by Animal


exactly Animal daft isnt it?

Anyhow as the thread title

Here is the Face of the True Dalai Lama




Pretty cool eh.

IN TIBET OR CHINA TODAY I WOULD BE LOCKED UP AND TORTURED FOR HAVING THIS PHOTO OR POSTING IT!

Will the real Dalai Lama please stand up!!

Kind Regards,

Elf

[edit on 13-8-2008 by MischeviousElf]

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
reply to post by Animal

 

Pretty cool eh.

Will the real Dalai Lama please stand up!!

Kind Regards,

Elf

[edit on 13-8-2008 by MischeviousElf]

OH MY GOD!!! Where did his legs go?



...Daft it is mate.

It has been a pleasure denying ignorance with ya!

[edit on 13-8-2008 by Animal]

Originally posted by MischeviousElf

Well guys you have not responded at all to my posts in page 4?

Because its completely full of drivel. Do you honesty expect me to answer every question you brought up?

Some answers to your broader issues not your re-telling of Tibetan according to your opinion. Because you did not quote me its hard to pin down your contention

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
The source is irrefutable.

Its the International Commission of Jurists NOT Committee

Irrefutable?. You have to be kidding me. You presented a UN petition made on behalf of the Tibetans by the ICJ which is a one-sided organisation and then claim it is irrefutable. On what grounds?. And the information presented in that link do not have any legal juridiction over this issue and are basing their argument on witnesses from the Tibetans, oh the Tibetans won't lie. A pinch of salt

In this UN document too, you will see the true history of the boundaries and nation State reality of an Independent Tibet.

Its not a UN document its a petition made by the ICJ

I call into doubt therefore any sources in this discussion concerning Rense, Wiki etc.

Or national geographic and Dr. Michael Parenti. Let me read you sources before you pronouce them irrefutable.

I also find it very confusing that if indeed as you state Tibet has always been a part of the Chinese Country why when did these other world powers in modern history all accept Tibet as an separate and distinct nation state to the China?

No soverign state has EVER recognised Tibet as a independent state. Provide proof to the contrary. Treaty, documents etc.

Children were beheaded in front of their families for not carrying the "right little book"

Please back up this claim with a source. Yes all the stories told by people are the truth.

Where did those Millions disappear to OP?

You have to prove that they actually disappeared first.

A bit from your source
"“the figures were obtained by interviewing Tibetan Refugees in India. "

So they gathered this from HIGHLY bias Tibetans and call that edvidence. Please I thought you could do better

reply to post by chinawhite

reply to post by Animal

haidian and chinawhite,

So how much does your government pay you to do this?

Is it enough to offset the extremely bad karma you are accumulating by slandering His Holiness, The Dalai Lama?

How ever much you make, you enjoy this life while you can, because in the next life and the millions after it you are going to learn the true meaning behind the "Sea of Samsara".

I feel very sorry for you. Really I do. Good luck with your next million years in the hell realms. Oh, and be careful with your first step into The Bardo, I hear it's a duzy.

Namaste.

[edit on 14-8-2008 by harrytuttle]

Originally posted by harrytuttle
Is it enough to offset the extremely bad karma you are accumulating by slandering His Holiness, The Dalai Lama?

Enough said.

His Holiness?. Come on, that is one of the most stupid things I have ever heard. The man is from a long line of ORDINARY people who pretends that they are something they are most definately not. One of the main reasons why your cannot reason with some people because are are carely delusioned about reality. Dont mean to single you out but you brought this up first

his holiness,huh...,that's very laughable,it is the year 2008.

Originally posted by chinawhite

Originally posted by MischeviousElf

Well guys you have not responded at all to my posts in page 4?

Because its completely full of drivel. Do you honesty expect me to answer every question you brought up?

Yes I do.

As I said please provide sources of a scholarly, Internationaly accepted Organisations, or legal framework as I have.

I can provide the links for the children being beheaded in the Cultural revolution, again from a peer reviewed article. I doubt if you really want me to go into the details of the horrors visited upon the chinese people at that time.

Once I have read some more of my information on this matter I will post it later after work!.

Of course the petition handed to the UN is of worth, as stated by yourself it was supported by the international committee of jurists.

No such other organization backs up any of the Chinese claims, but do what ive written.

Again I showed in both 603/604 AD Tibet was recognized by your country as being an independant state.

I also have shown the international treaties, like the Simla treaty showing the separate Nation State status of Tibet in modern history as well.

Are you trying to say when Col Younghuband and 3000 members of the British military invaded Tibet they were actually invading China?

That would seriously re write all known accounts of modern history!

Sources of similiar regard of mine please!

As I showed in my post about his dicussion with the monk who had been tortured for 30 years, there is something holy indeed about him, wanting with all his heart to be of the same thought's and feelings as a lowly monk. A head of state and recognised scholar and expert sees a lowly monk as better than him and more advanced. Something to that not wishing to loose your love for your enemies.

I will later on tonight do an OP/Ed on the reality of the Tibet sitution as I have laid out here for your education China White and Zainan.

You guys should like that "re education" but it will only be the truth, and I will not torture you to accept it. if you dont accept the "truth" I wont torture you to take on my veiws.

Unlike in Tibet Today! the PRC forcing "re eduaction" or brain washing on a whole Race of people!

Kind regards,

Elf.

[edit on 14-8-2008 by MischeviousElf]

Originally posted by chinawhite

Originally posted by harrytuttle
Is it enough to offset the extremely bad karma you are accumulating by slandering His Holiness, The Dalai Lama?

Enough said.

His Holiness?. Come on, that is one of the most stupid things I have ever heard. The man is from a long line of ORDINARY people who pretends that they are something they are most definately not. One of the main reasons why your cannot reason with some people because are are carely delusioned about reality. Dont mean to single you out but you brought this up first

Oh my! I've been going about this all wrong. Chinawhite, I didn't realize you were our true source on what faith to follow. I apologize a thousand times over!

Please teach us! We are mere mortals, and do not deserve your most divine presence, but we will faithfully receive each tenet from you as if it were a rainbow blasting forth from your nether regions.

Oh thank you! Thank you China White for answereing our humble questions with your divine uvula.

Major Discrepancy: The Major is afraid that you are spouting propaganda.

His Majesty Chinitius the White XIIV: America is bad! The BBC lies to you! Tibet is governed for it's own good! I have sources I will not share with your mortal eyes! But they exist! Oh do they ever exist!

round_eyed_dog: I think you may be purposefully trying to mislead us.

His Majesty Chinitius the White XIIV: Nuh-uh you are!

Animal: I don't understand why you are trying to demonize Tibet when there are so many human rights issues in China. Your holiness, I have brought many examples here for you to look at.

His Majesty Chinitius the White XIIV: .......

His Majesty Chinitius the White XIIV: .......

His Majesty Chinitius the White XIIV: .......

Animal: Your holiness?

His Majesty Chinitius the White XIIV: .......

His Majesty Chinitius the White XIIV: What about them? It mentions nothing about torture. "cultural genocide" is what the article about.

Teeveesfrank: I also think you are being misleading!

His Majesty Chinitius the White XIIV: I don't see how it can be so.

Teeveesfrank: huh?

MischeviousElf: I have many well thought out and civil questions about the real problems that are by your propaganda, and I have many reputable sources for you to look at!

His Majesty Chinitius the White XIIV: We are off topic! Please ignore China, Tibet is the true evil! Look at this picture of a baby seal! Look how cute it is!

MischeviousElf: ...........

His Majesty Chinitius the White XIIV: Americans torture people all the time!

MischeviousElf: I would agree that America certainly has it's share of atrocities, but as you said yourself this thread is not about..

His Majesty Chinitius the White XIIV: Silence! I must rest! Begone you gutter urchin before I strike thee down!



round_eyed_dog: Thank you for gracing us with your presence Your Holiness.

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
As I said please provide sources of a scholarly, Internationaly accepted Organisations, or legal framework as I have.

You have posted sources which do not provide edvidence nor facts based merely based their estimates on interviews from Tibetans themselves. How is that some scholarly research?. I have provided national geographic and Dr. Michael Parenti which are both international renowed in their fields

The ICJ is NOT a Internationaly accepted Organisation. Its a human rights organisation WITHOUT any juridiction on ANY matter.

Legal framwork?

I can provide the links for the children being beheaded in the Cultural revolution, again from a peer reviewed article.

Post away. It better be from an irrefutable source as you claim to always provide

Of course the petition handed to the UN is of worth, as stated by yourself it was supported by the international committee of jurists.

Gee, ITS THE COMMISSION NOT COMMITTEE.

And as I outlined before, it has NO juridiction over this issue. Its a human rights version of greenpiece but less reactive and less well known and even recognised world wide

I also have shown the international treaties, like the Simla treaty showing the separate Nation State status of Tibet in modern history as well.

How can the Simla treaty even be legal?

It was signed between Britain and representives of Britain which NEVER has recognised Tibet as a nation so what is the legality of the treaty signed between a nation and a non-nation?. It thus has NO legal standing in the world community. Anyhow the Simla convention violated previously signed treaties with China and Russia

Quote "The Anglo-Tibetan treaty was accordingly confirmed by a Sino-British treaty in 1906 by which "Great Britain engages not to annex Tibetan territory or to interfere in the administration of Tibet". Moreover, Beijing agreed to pay London 2.5 million rupees which Lhasa was forced to agree upon in the Anglo-Tibetan treaty of 1904. In 1907, Britain and Russia agreed not to negotiate directly with Tibet and recognized the "suzerainty of China over Thibet." A suzerain is a nation which has certain authority over a dependent nation."

You guys should like that "re education" but it will only be the truth, and I will not torture you to accept it. if you dont accept the "truth" I wont torture you to take on my veiws.

Your torturing me now with you "history lesson" and claims made of "Internationaly accepted Organisations" like the ICJ and scholarly works based on highly biased Tibetan interviews

Originally posted by round_eyed_dog
round_eyed_dog: Thank you for gracing us with your presence Your Holiness.

I'm lost for words, I'm very flattered

Cheers

Genuine Hand Colored 1864 American Civil War era Johnson Map of
"Asia"

find in ebay




[edit on 14-8-2008 by gs001]